Horizontal Artefacts with Progressive Scan

[PoeticKinetics]

I have a Pioneer DVDS 969AVI (NTSC version, plays PAL/NTSC).
I'm using a Sony data projector VPL-CX80 (similar to the VPLCX85 in Aus), I know using a data projector for movies is prob not the best option but it's 3000 Lumens and I can watch it during the day.

I've connected the dvd player to the projector using a 3RCA Component to 15 Pin D-Sub cable. (Projector doesn't use 3RCA Component in. The input signal can be set to Component and colours are displayed correctly).

The problem is when playing a dvd movie in Progressive Scan mode for improved pic quality I notice horizontal lines that appear around fast moving objects. The lines don't appear when playing back the same movie in interlaced mode.

I've been doing some research today, and have discovered that NTSC movies do have Artefacts due to the 3:2 pulldown method (done when converting from film to dvd). I'm not sure if this is the problem or not, as I was under the impression that Progressive Scan was meant to remove a lot of the artefacts.

The DVD's I've tested have been NTSC single layer (compressed) movies. I will be testing a PAL legit' movie later tonight.

<edit>
I've since tested a PAL movie which plays fine. There is a massive difference between Progressive and Interlaced, if the image is interlaced the whole picture appears to shake. This is because of the interlaced field drawing method, the fields alternate. On a large screen like a projector this make for a very average picture. When the DVD player is set to progressive it stabilises all signal output, ie the dvd player's menu without a disc in.
</edit)

Does anybody know if the NTSC pulldown is the problem ? or if it is part of my hardware setup ?

It would be great to solve this problem as 80% of my dvd collection are NTSC,
failing a solution I would still like to know the reason for future reference.

Any assistance is appreciated.

Regards,

Gethen Sullivan
Perth.

[Big Guns]

That sounds very much like the 3:2 pulldown artefact that plagues NTSC titles, except that progressive scan should remove it entirely. The only explanation that I can come up with is that when the setting says it is progressive it in fact is not and vice versa.

[PoeticKinetics]

If only it was, I'd be happy with that solution.
But when Progressive is activate the picture is stable and much clearer, especially on static menus.

With progressive all the jagged edges of objects are eliminated.
It's only when there is fast motion that I notice the issue. It consists of horizontal lines only surrounding the moving object. They are usually 2cm - 10cm wide, ie they don't fill the whole screen.

I have not tested a genuine dual layer NTSC movie, only a few Bali copies.
I can't test this on my tv as it doesn't have component in. Progressive Scan only affects the component out on my DVD player.

It drives me nuts, it's the only issue with an otherwise excellent theatre set-up.

~ Gethen

[bac]

If only it was, I'd be happy with that solution.
But when Progressive is activate the picture is stable and much clearer, especially on static menus.

With progressive all the jagged edges of objects are eliminated.
It's only when there is fast motion that I notice the issue. It consists of horizontal lines only surrounding the moving object. They are usually 2cm - 10cm wide, ie they don't fill the whole screen.

I have not tested a genuine dual layer NTSC movie, only a few Bali copies.
I can't test this on my tv as it doesn't have component in. Progressive Scan only affects the component out on my DVD player.

It drives me nuts, it's the only issue with an otherwise excellent theatre set-up.

~ Gethen

Try going to your local video library and borrowing a genuine NTSC movie DVD (look around - some titles have been released here in NTSC only). Then you'll have a better idea whether the problem is with all NTSC titles or just the discs you've been using so far.

I suspect the discs you've played so far may have been originally encoded as interlaced material - if so, no progressive scan circuitry is going to be able to remove all the artifacts. :p

[PoeticKinetics]

After further testing, I'm now prettty sure it's the quality of the copy that is causing the issue. The lines are extreme when watching King Arthur (chinese copy- not original).

With some movies it's only just noticeable but others, it's impossible to watch on progressive.

I realise that they are dodgy copies (DVD5) and that I can't expect a perfect picture, but it appears ok when running in interlaced mode.

It's definitely something to do with the frame change as it's only apparent when playing the movie. When paused or single frame advancing I don't see it.

So it's now down to the way the particular movie has been encoded.

Either when originally mastered.
or
When compressed to DVD5 format.


Does anybody know which it is. If it's the compression software it may be a software setting that's causing the problem, or maybe it's the compression software itself. I just want to make sure I never use this software.

Does anybody else have this issue?

Unfortunately I can't do a screenshot to show the problem as it only occurs on the frame change.

I am still yet to test a genuine NTSC movie. I will keep this thread updated if I find the cause.


~ Gethen

[bac]

So it's now down to the way the particular movie has been encoded.

Either when originally mastered.
or
When compressed to DVD5 format.


Does anybody know which it is. If it's the compression software it may be a software setting that's causing the problem, or maybe it's the compression software itself. I just want to make sure I never use this software.

~ Gethen

I would suspect it would be when the material was originally mastered. Recompression software tends to increase the 'blockiness' as a byproduct of the process - I've never seen it add new types of artifacts that weren't there before.

[PoeticKinetics]

It pays to read the manuals for all hardware from front to back.
The artefacts are not a defect in my hardware so much as extra options that I had configured incorrectly.

The DVD Player: Pioneer DVs595AVI has a feature called 'Pure Cinema'. When working in Progressive Scan mode, Pure Cinema appears to be different settings (or algorithms) for converting 24fps Film to NTSC dvd using the 3:2 pull down method. There are 5 different settings, and unfortunately the books explanation on this feature is very basic. "Pure Cinema - choose the setting the looks the best". A bit more information as to exactly what is going on would be nice.

The different settings do make a big difference, especially with movies that are originally mastered in 24fps. A handy feature on the player is that it can display whether the media is 24fps Film, or 25/30 fps movie. It also displays the transfer rate, making it quick and easy to reference the quality/compression of the DVD.

Through all this I've learn't that Progressive Scan is the Shit! Well worth while. I beleive it is only visible when using high quality cables such as Component or HDMI.

Anyone watching movies on a big screen, ie projector or large tv via an S-Video or even composite (RCA) cable you will notice the image is quite shaky. Focus on the top or the bottom edge of the screen, it's damn annoying. If your hardware supports it I strongly recommend using progressive scan and a set of nice cables.

I stumbled across an excellent article regarding Progressive Scan and NTSC 3:2 pulldown. complete with screen animations. Worth a read.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html


I'm content again with my setup.

~ Gethen