Toyota 3SGE

[D Walford]

Anyone know the differences between Gen1 and Gen2 3SGE's or a web site
where I can find the info?
I spent a couple of hours last night searching the net for the info but
I can't find any good info.
The reason I need to know is the current engine in the mates Lotus 7
replica is down on power about 8kw.
The first 3SGE which was in the car needed to be replaced due to oil
surge problems causing major big end failure at Winton, the sump was
modified to fix the oil surge but I suspect the second 3SGE is a Gen1
instead of the previous Gen2.
Since fitting the latest engine we have fitted a custom intake manifold,
new custom made extractors and new exhaust system plus a Microtech ECU.
The engine has also been rebuilt with new rings and bearings by an
experienced Toyota mechanic and the compressions are spot on.
The engine is running very smoothly and seems to have plenty of power
but the dyno numbers say its got less than before.
I suspect either the cams or the head are different (we have the old
parts which could be swapped over) but I need to know for sure before we
start swapping parts.



Daryl

[atec]

D Walford wrote:
> Anyone know the differences between Gen1 and Gen2 3SGE's or a web site
> where I can find the info?
> I spent a couple of hours last night searching the net for the info but
> I can't find any good info.
> The reason I need to know is the current engine in the mates Lotus 7
> replica is down on power about 8kw.
> The first 3SGE which was in the car needed to be replaced due to oil
> surge problems causing major big end failure at Winton, the sump was
> modified to fix the oil surge but I suspect the second 3SGE is a Gen1
> instead of the previous Gen2.
> Since fitting the latest engine we have fitted a custom intake manifold,
> new custom made extractors and new exhaust system plus a Microtech ECU.
> The engine has also been rebuilt with new rings and bearings by an
> experienced Toyota mechanic and the compressions are spot on.
> The engine is running very smoothly and seems to have plenty of power
> but the dyno numbers say its got less than before.
> I suspect either the cams or the head are different (we have the old
> parts which could be swapped over) but I need to know for sure before we
> start swapping parts.
>
>
>
> Daryl
cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...

[D Walford]

atec wrote:
>

> cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...


I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
either.
Might be worth a look.
A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
Gen2 cams.



Daryl

[atec]

D Walford wrote:
> atec wrote:
>
>
>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
>
>
>
> I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
> either.
> Might be worth a look.
> A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
> difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
> Gen2 cams.
>
>
>
> Daryl
I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
a while since I worked on one...
certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.

[D Walford]

atec wrote:
>
> D Walford wrote:
> > atec wrote:
> >
> >
> >>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
> >
> >
> >
> > I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
> > either.
> > Might be worth a look.
> > A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
> > difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
> > Gen2 cams.
> >
> >
> >
> > Daryl
> I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
> a while since I worked on one...
> certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.

After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
for max power.
Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
for max power?



Daryl

[atec]

D Walford wrote:
> atec wrote:
>
>>D Walford wrote:
>>
>>>atec wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
>>>either.
>>>Might be worth a look.
>>>A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
>>>difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
>>>Gen2 cams.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Daryl
>>
>>I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
>>a while since I worked on one...
>> certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.
>
>
> After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
> the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
> for max power.
> Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
> flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
> certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
> for max power?
>
>
>
> Daryl
I expect an adjustment down on the microtec will prove you are right...
two identical motors often benifit from differing ratios . Do you have a
tail pipe sensor ?

[What The]

"D Walford" <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:4253D000.829DFB44@iprimus.com.au...

>
> After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
> the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
> for max power.
> Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
> flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
> certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
> for max power?
>
>
>
> Daryl

If you get too much richer (i.e numerically lower) you'll start to lose power, not
gain. Often power is gained from leaning out the mixture (i.e numberically higher
AFR), not making it richer. Just because there is more fuel there doesn't mean it
will make a bigger bang there's always a fine line between a clean lean burn and the
motor going boom which is why tuners make the car slightly richer to be on the safe
side.

Also check the base timing. If the base timing is advanced by a degree or 2 that can
gain power across the rev range especially if the car has been conservatively tuned.

[Jason James]

"atec" <atec77@XXXhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4253d56d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> D Walford wrote:
> > atec wrote:
> >
> >>D Walford wrote:
> >>
> >>>atec wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
> >>>either.
> >>>Might be worth a look.
> >>>A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
> >>>difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
> >>>Gen2 cams.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Daryl
> >>
> >>I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
> >>a while since I worked on one...
> >> certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.
> >
> >
> > After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
> > the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
> > for max power.
> > Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
> > flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
> > certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
> > for max power?


Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak
later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure
peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced.


Jason

[D Walford]

atec wrote:
>
> D Walford wrote:
> > atec wrote:
> >
> >>D Walford wrote:
> >>
> >>>atec wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
> >>>either.
> >>>Might be worth a look.
> >>>A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
> >>>difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
> >>>Gen2 cams.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Daryl
> >>
> >>I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
> >>a while since I worked on one...
> >> certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.
> >
> >
> > After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
> > the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
> > for max power.
> > Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
> > flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
> > certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
> > for max power?
> >
> >
> >
> > Daryl
> I expect an adjustment down on the microtec will prove you are right...
> two identical motors often benifit from differing ratios . Do you have a
> tail pipe sensor ?

Don't have my own but can get access to a good one.
Funny thing is when road tested the current configuration feels more
powerful but the dyno says thats not the case.



Daryl

[atec]

D Walford wrote:
> atec wrote:
>
>>D Walford wrote:
>>
>>>atec wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>D Walford wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>atec wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
>>>>>either.
>>>>>Might be worth a look.
>>>>>A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
>>>>>difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
>>>>>Gen2 cams.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Daryl
>>>>
>>>>I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
>>>>a while since I worked on one...
>>>> certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.
>>>
>>>
>>>After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
>>>the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
>>>for max power.
>>>Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
>>>flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
>>>certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
>>>for max power?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Daryl
>>
>>I expect an adjustment down on the microtec will prove you are right...
>>two identical motors often benifit from differing ratios . Do you have a
>>tail pipe sensor ?
>
>
> Don't have my own but can get access to a good one.
> Funny thing is when road tested the current configuration feels more
> powerful but the dyno says thats not the case.
>
>
>
> Daryl
sounds like it may be a better spead and I expect more usual torque ,
maybe you should tweak and drive round a track ?
Ive been helping with a blokes toy and the most power did not equal
quickest lap times... sounds odd but more low down was faster out the
corners...
Its powered by a 4.0 v6 and is damned quick ( home made 2 seater like a
morgan) which weighs nothing .

[D Walford]

atec wrote:
>
> D Walford wrote:
> > atec wrote:
> >
> >>D Walford wrote:
> >>
> >>>atec wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>D Walford wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>atec wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
> >>>>>either.
> >>>>>Might be worth a look.
> >>>>>A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
> >>>>>difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
> >>>>>Gen2 cams.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Daryl
> >>>>
> >>>>I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
> >>>>a while since I worked on one...
> >>>> certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
> >>>the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
> >>>for max power.
> >>>Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
> >>>flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
> >>>certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
> >>>for max power?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Daryl
> >>
> >>I expect an adjustment down on the microtec will prove you are right...
> >>two identical motors often benifit from differing ratios . Do you have a
> >>tail pipe sensor ?
> >
> >
> > Don't have my own but can get access to a good one.
> > Funny thing is when road tested the current configuration feels more
> > powerful but the dyno says thats not the case.
> >
> >
> >
> > Daryl
> sounds like it may be a better spead and I expect more usual torque ,
> maybe you should tweak and drive round a track ?
> Ive been helping with a blokes toy and the most power did not equal
> quickest lap times... sounds odd but more low down was faster out the
> corners...
> Its powered by a 4.0 v6 and is damned quick ( home made 2 seater like a
> morgan) which weighs nothing .

This one is also reasonably quick, easily faster than the owners 5.7
Calais.
We aren't all that unhappy with the current performance but very curious
about the numbers.
With the mods we were expecting approx 100rwkw but its currently only
reading 85rwkw.
We have had a suggestion that whilst the timing map may be showing max
36deg on the computer screen it may actually be advancing less needing
investigation with a timing light, apparently the stock ecu has a max
advance of 40deg.



Daryl

Daryl

[atec]

D Walford wrote:
> atec wrote:
>
>>D Walford wrote:
>>
>>>atec wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>D Walford wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>atec wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>D Walford wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>atec wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>cams. pll the covers and check the numbers...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I haven't noticed any numbers on the cams but I haven't looked for them
>>>>>>>either.
>>>>>>>Might be worth a look.
>>>>>>>A mate who works in spare parts at a local Toyota dealer is having
>>>>>>>difficulty finding if there are different part numbers for the Gen1 and
>>>>>>>Gen2 cams.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Daryl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think the casting marks and some other things should be visable , been
>>>>>>a while since I worked on one...
>>>>>>certainly a dti and a degree wheel will tell you a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>After looking at the Microtech data tonight we are beginning to think
>>>>>the Microtech agent has tuned the thing on the conservative side and not
>>>>>for max power.
>>>>>Timing advances steadily from 15deg at idle to 36 deg at 3000rpm and its
>>>>>flat from there, AFR are mostly mid to low 13's, the experts (I'm
>>>>>certainly not one of those) tell us they should be in the 12's or lower
>>>>>for max power?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Daryl
>>>>
>>>>I expect an adjustment down on the microtec will prove you are right...
>>>>two identical motors often benifit from differing ratios . Do you have a
>>>>tail pipe sensor ?
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't have my own but can get access to a good one.
>>>Funny thing is when road tested the current configuration feels more
>>>powerful but the dyno says thats not the case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Daryl
>>
>>sounds like it may be a better spead and I expect more usual torque ,
>>maybe you should tweak and drive round a track ?
>> Ive been helping with a blokes toy and the most power did not equal
>>quickest lap times... sounds odd but more low down was faster out the
>>corners...
>>Its powered by a 4.0 v6 and is damned quick ( home made 2 seater like a
>>morgan) which weighs nothing .
>
>
> This one is also reasonably quick, easily faster than the owners 5.7
> Calais.
> We aren't all that unhappy with the current performance but very curious
> about the numbers.
> With the mods we were expecting approx 100rwkw but its currently only
> reading 85rwkw.
> We have had a suggestion that whilst the timing map may be showing max
> 36deg on the computer screen it may actually be advancing less needing
> investigation with a timing light, apparently the stock ecu has a max
> advance of 40deg.
>
>
>
> Daryl
>
> Daryl
one simple way to find out .

[D Walford]

atec wrote:
>

> >
> > This one is also reasonably quick, easily faster than the owners 5.7
> > Calais.
> > We aren't all that unhappy with the current performance but very curious
> > about the numbers.
> > With the mods we were expecting approx 100rwkw but its currently only
> > reading 85rwkw.
> > We have had a suggestion that whilst the timing map may be showing max
> > 36deg on the computer screen it may actually be advancing less needing
> > investigation with a timing light, apparently the stock ecu has a max
> > advance of 40deg.
> >
> >
> >

> one simple way to find out .

We are taking the car up to Bright on Sat to check the place out for
November's "Great Aussie Clubman Roundup" so any work will have till
next week.
Weather forcast is excellent so hopefully we will have a couple of days
"testing" it around some twisty mountain roads:-)



Daryl

[atec]

D Walford wrote:
> atec wrote:
>
>
>>>This one is also reasonably quick, easily faster than the owners 5.7
>>>Calais.
>>>We aren't all that unhappy with the current performance but very curious
>>>about the numbers.
>>>With the mods we were expecting approx 100rwkw but its currently only
>>>reading 85rwkw.
>>>We have had a suggestion that whilst the timing map may be showing max
>>>36deg on the computer screen it may actually be advancing less needing
>>>investigation with a timing light, apparently the stock ecu has a max
>>>advance of 40deg.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>>one simple way to find out .
>
>
> We are taking the car up to Bright on Sat to check the place out for
> November's "Great Aussie Clubman Roundup" so any work will have till
> next week.
> Weather forcast is excellent so hopefully we will have a couple of days
> "testing" it around some twisty mountain roads:-)
>
>
>
> Daryl
Enjoy , I had a thrash in a 911 Carr era for an hour today ( part of
some training).. might write something later... hard to describe really
and FARKKKK doesn't seem to encompass it, will be interested to see how
you tune that toy ..