SF & SG oils

[duffo21]

Here's question for those who might be more mechanically knowledgeable than
me:

In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?

Thanks in advance

duffo21

[John_H]

duffo21 wrote:
>
>In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
>I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
>sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
>(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?

In most cases later API ratings exceed the previous ones. Latest
rating is SJ, which is what you ought be buying if you want the best
available specification.

Supermarkets often sell economy line oils which don't meet the ratings
specified by the car manufactures for their current models. Whether
the overall quality has also been compromised is anyone's guess but
unless there's a significant amount of money to be saved there's
little point in running what's effectively an obsolete specification.

--
John H

[athol]

duffo21 <duffo21@hotmail.com> wrote:

> In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
> I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
> sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
> (providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?

The S (and C for Diesels) rating system is always supposed to be backwards
compatible. Unless there is some other specific requirement such as LPG
or turbo compatibility, a letter further along the alphabet is fine, but a
letter further back in the alphabet isn't. Over time, even the cheapest
brands will upgrade their ratings to a more recent one.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Hotman Paris Hutapea]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:37:40 GMT, "duffo21" <duffo21@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Here's question for those who might be more mechanically knowledgeable than
>me:
>
>In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
>I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
>sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
>(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?


a lot of the requirements for API standards relate to issues such as
emissions performance (crankcase vapours) rather than pure engine
protection.

there is a lot of criticism in the industry over the validity of
current API standards, people assume the higher the grade the more
protection for their engine, which isn't always 100% the case.

--

Attorney at Law
5/37 Paknabiel Way
Denpasar, Indonesia.

[Jim Vatunz]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:06:20 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>duffo21 wrote:
>>
>>In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
>>I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
>>sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
>>(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?
>
>In most cases later API ratings exceed the previous ones. Latest
>rating is SJ, which is what you ought be buying if you want the best
>available specification.
I think they're up to SL now.
>
>Supermarkets often sell economy line oils which don't meet the ratings
>specified by the car manufactures for their current models. Whether
>the overall quality has also been compromised is anyone's guess but
>unless there's a significant amount of money to be saved there's
>little point in running what's effectively an obsolete specification.

In my observations SF is about the lowest rating that's been available
for a decade or more. However there's nothing wrong with supermarkets
selling plain SF oil. There's still plenty of cars on the road that
only require it. It's up to the owner of vehicles that require a
higher rated oil or even one with a different viscosity to use the
correct grade. Pity they can't automatically rely on mechanics or even
dealerships to provide it.

--
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
It's boring but it's something.

[John_H]

Jim Vatunz wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:06:20 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>duffo21 wrote:
>>>
>>>In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
>>>I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
>>>sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
>>>(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?
>>
>>In most cases later API ratings exceed the previous ones. Latest
>>rating is SJ, which is what you ought be buying if you want the best
>>available specification.

>I think they're up to SL now.

Current mainsteam engine oils (the high volume sellers) are SJ, and
AFAIK there's nothing beyond that presently available (at least not
according to the latest product guides I have).

>>
>>Supermarkets often sell economy line oils which don't meet the ratings
>>specified by the car manufactures for their current models. Whether
>>the overall quality has also been compromised is anyone's guess but
>>unless there's a significant amount of money to be saved there's
>>little point in running what's effectively an obsolete specification.
>
>In my observations SF is about the lowest rating that's been available
>for a decade or more. However there's nothing wrong with supermarkets
>selling plain SF oil. There's still plenty of cars on the road that
>only require it. It's up to the owner of vehicles that require a
>higher rated oil or even one with a different viscosity to use the
>correct grade. Pity they can't automatically rely on mechanics or even
>dealerships to provide it.

Mobil, for example, still offer API SF in SAE 20W-50 only. Whether
it's worth the trouble of tracking it down for the money you _might_
save just because you've got an older car is a matter of individual
choice.

What I'd particulary beware of are the homebrand oils found in
supermarkets and cheap parts outlets.

There are also good reasons not to run multigrade oils in some engines
(irrespective of API rating) but a VL Dunnydore isn't one of them.

--
John H

[Jason James]

"Hotman Paris Hutapea" <legal@eagle.com> wrote in message
news:o7ogd1dd71uf4ielifvgpaf70pb7tr6gcf@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:37:40 GMT, "duffo21" <duffo21@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Here's question for those who might be more mechanically knowledgeable
than
> >me:
> >
> >In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6
months
> >I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example
now
> >sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
> >(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?
>
>
> a lot of the requirements for API standards relate to issues such as
> emissions performance (crankcase vapours) rather than pure engine
> protection.
>
> there is a lot of criticism in the industry over the validity of
> current API standards, people assume the higher the grade the more
> protection for their engine, which isn't always 100% the case.

I agree. I did an expensive experiment as it turned out. I put Mobil 1-50
into a Cleveland V8. Once the oil got to operating temp, I could hear the
rod-bearings,..so I dumped it out (use it in oil-can) and put 20-50 dyno
back. The point was, at 100c both oils should have provided 50 grade
protection, The thermo set the temp to circa 82c..the synth stuff did not
provide the same protection,it 'channeled' allowing noise. The
rod-clearances were probably wider than desirable,..but the dyno oil had no
such problem. BTW, the oil-pressure was similar with both oils (within a few
lbs)

go figure as they say..

Jason

[Jim Vatunz]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:22:12 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Jim Vatunz wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:06:20 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>duffo21 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
>>>>I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
>>>>sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
>>>>(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?
>>>
>>>In most cases later API ratings exceed the previous ones. Latest
>>>rating is SJ, which is what you ought be buying if you want the best
>>>available specification.
>
>>I think they're up to SL now.
>
>Current mainsteam engine oils (the high volume sellers) are SJ, and
>AFAIK there's nothing beyond that presently available (at least not
>according to the latest product guides I have).

I just had a quick look at the caltex website and the list a few oils
such as some of the delo series and havoline series that have a SL
rating.
I think some of the other oil companies may not have their website as
current but i'd anticipate that Caltex wouldn't be the only one.
>
>>>
>>>Supermarkets often sell economy line oils which don't meet the ratings
>>>specified by the car manufactures for their current models. Whether
>>>the overall quality has also been compromised is anyone's guess but
>>>unless there's a significant amount of money to be saved there's
>>>little point in running what's effectively an obsolete specification.
>>
>>In my observations SF is about the lowest rating that's been available
>>for a decade or more. However there's nothing wrong with supermarkets
>>selling plain SF oil. There's still plenty of cars on the road that
>>only require it. It's up to the owner of vehicles that require a
>>higher rated oil or even one with a different viscosity to use the
>>correct grade. Pity they can't automatically rely on mechanics or even
>>dealerships to provide it.
>
>Mobil, for example, still offer API SF in SAE 20W-50 only. Whether
>it's worth the trouble of tracking it down for the money you _might_
>save just because you've got an older car is a matter of individual
>choice.
>
>What I'd particulary beware of are the homebrand oils found in
>supermarkets and cheap parts outlets.

Why?
I have used them in the past on old dungers without any dramas.
Although i tend to change oil more frequently than required, in the
belief that the best oil is clean(ish) oil.
Currently though i use a somewhat more expensive oil as i don't want
to use a 20-50, preferring a thinner grade.
>
>There are also good reasons not to run multigrade oils in some engines
>(irrespective of API rating) but a VL Dunnydore isn't one of them.

lawnmowers being a particular example.

--
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
It's boring but it's something.

[John_H]

Jim Vatunz wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:22:12 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>What I'd particulary beware of are the homebrand oils found in
>>supermarkets and cheap parts outlets.
>
>Why?

Same reason as I wouldn't use Repco brand filters -- there's no way of
knowing where they come from. :)

>I have used them in the past on old dungers without any dramas.
>Although i tend to change oil more frequently than required, in the
>belief that the best oil is clean(ish) oil.
>Currently though i use a somewhat more expensive oil as i don't want
>to use a 20-50, preferring a thinner grade.

If you look up the specs, the mainstream 20W-50 multigrades have
always been right at the bottom of the absolute viscosity range -- ie
they're almost SAE40. I suspect it's designed that way to accomodate
the popular notion that bigger numbers are always better.

If you look up the actual API listings I think you'll also find that
the current 15W-40 grades carry better specs than 20W-50 (in respect
of maximum temperatures).

FWIW my Dunnydore gets 15W-40, same as everything else I own, even
though the original handbook recommendation is 20W-50. The lawnmower
gets straight 30. Only engines I've ever used a 50 wt in are those
with roller bigends or those overdue for a rebuild.

--
John H

[Jim Vatunz]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:07:04 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Jim Vatunz wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:22:12 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>What I'd particulary beware of are the homebrand oils found in
>>>supermarkets and cheap parts outlets.
>>
>>Why?
>
>Same reason as I wouldn't use Repco brand filters -- there's no way of
>knowing where they come from. :)
Fair point. I figure even re-refined oil with the correct additives
should be OK. I'm more wary of oil from minor companies who may or may
not have the quality their advertising suggests.
>
>>I have used them in the past on old dungers without any dramas.
>>Although i tend to change oil more frequently than required, in the
>>belief that the best oil is clean(ish) oil.
>>Currently though i use a somewhat more expensive oil as i don't want
>>to use a 20-50, preferring a thinner grade.
>
>If you look up the specs, the mainstream 20W-50 multigrades have
>always been right at the bottom of the absolute viscosity range -- ie
>they're almost SAE40. I suspect it's designed that way to accomodate
>the popular notion that bigger numbers are always better.
>
>If you look up the actual API listings I think you'll also find that
>the current 15W-40 grades carry better specs than 20W-50 (in respect
>of maximum temperatures).
>
>FWIW my Dunnydore gets 15W-40, same as everything else I own, even
>though the original handbook recommendation is 20W-50. The lawnmower
>gets straight 30. Only engines I've ever used a 50 wt in are those
>with roller bigends or those overdue for a rebuild.

I also understated the current petrol API rating before too.
Looking at the oil i bought the other day it claims to meet the SM
standard. They sure do come up quickly these days.

--
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
It's boring but it's something.

[Albm&ctd]

In article <osugd1llfcbdith6vh7f85l4c58a563v54@4ax.com>,
john4271@hotmail.com says...

> though the original handbook recommendation is 20W-50. The lawnmower
> gets straight 30. Only engines I've ever used a 50 wt in are those
> with roller bigends or those overdue for a rebuild.
>
Speaking of small engines. Check this out
http://www.briggsracing.com/blockzillaengine.html

Al
--
I don't take sides.
It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[kevcat]

Jim Vatunz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:06:20 +1000, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >duffo21 wrote:
> >>
> >>In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
> >>I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
> >>sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
> >>(providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?
> >
> >In most cases later API ratings exceed the previous ones. Latest
> >rating is SJ, which is what you ought be buying if you want the best
> >available specification.
> I think they're up to SL now.
> >
> >Supermarkets often sell economy line oils which don't meet the ratings
> >specified by the car manufactures for their current models. Whether
> >the overall quality has also been compromised is anyone's guess but
> >unless there's a significant amount of money to be saved there's
> >little point in running what's effectively an obsolete specification.
>
> In my observations SF is about the lowest rating that's been available
> for a decade or more. However there's nothing wrong with supermarkets
> selling plain SF oil. There's still plenty of cars on the road that
> only require it. It's up to the owner of vehicles that require a
> higher rated oil or even one with a different viscosity to use the
> correct grade. Pity they can't automatically rely on mechanics or even
> dealerships to provide it.
>
> --
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
> It's boring but it's something.


Supermarket's own brand is no different from the major oil companies
branded oils
it is the same as their basic engine oil(not a performance oil)

For years Bi-Lo sold a multigrade oil, just basic 20w-40 engine oil
this was the exact same product as the Caltex Multigrade 20W-40 only
$5.00 cheaper($4.99 v $9.99)

Kev

[Patrick Young]

duffo21 wrote:

> Here's question for those who might be more mechanically knowledgeable than
> me:
>
> In the manual for my VL, it says to use SF type oil. In the last 6 months
> I've found this very hard to track down. Most supermarkets for example now
> sell SG type oil. I am just wondering if it's ok to use SG instead of SF
> (providing the grade is still the same of course - think mine is 20W/50)?
>
> Thanks in advance

Like John, I use a 15W40. This is a CG4-SH oil. Athol mentioned
the (C)ompression (S)park concept of the letters.

SF I'd expect is seriously deprecated. My diesel manuel says to
use CD or better. It's a 1991 model. I'd seriously doubt it *ever*
actually ran CD, it's run CG for most of it's life.
>
> duffo21
>
>

[John_H]

kevcat wrote:
>
>Supermarket's own brand is no different from the major oil companies
>branded oils
>it is the same as their basic engine oil(not a performance oil)

If only you could rely on that being the case. If they don't brand it
as such I, for one, wouldn't trust 'em.

>
>For years Bi-Lo sold a multigrade oil, just basic 20w-40 engine oil
>this was the exact same product as the Caltex Multigrade 20W-40 only
>$5.00 cheaper($4.99 v $9.99)

There ya go... I wouldn't use Caltex oil on my door hinges.

It's a foible I inherited from my old man, who happened to own a
Caltex fuel outlet but always ran a different brand of oil in his own
car. :)

--
John H

[kevcat]

John_H wrote:
>
> kevcat wrote:
> >
> >Supermarket's own brand is no different from the major oil companies
> >branded oils
> >it is the same as their basic engine oil(not a performance oil)
>
> If only you could rely on that being the case. If they don't brand it
> as such I, for one, wouldn't trust 'em.

so where do you suggest the oil comes from?
Castrol, Caltex, BP all package "no name" brand oils

there are the smaller oil blenders like Prolube and such but they don't
normally supply to others


> >
> >For years Bi-Lo sold a multigrade oil, just basic 20w-40 engine oil
> >this was the exact same product as the Caltex Multigrade 20W-40 only
> >$5.00 cheaper($4.99 v $9.99)
>
> There ya go... I wouldn't use Caltex oil on my door hinges.
>
> It's a foible I inherited from my old man, who happened to own a
> Caltex fuel outlet but always ran a different brand of oil in his own
> car. :)


Funny Caltex has the best mineral diesel engine oils on the market

I started using the old CXT in my Cortina back in 88 when I started
working for Caltex, it wasn't a great oil, I checked out the specs in
the Caltex spec book and found that the Delo engine oil was better than
the CXT, so I switched and ran that in all my cars and found it to be an
excellent oil, never had a problem, the Cortina had 400,000klms on it
when I traded it and still used no oil and had no tappet noise(not
normal for an old cast iron, pre crossflow head ford engine)

Kev

[John_H]

kevcat wrote:
>
>so where do you suggest the oil comes from?
>Castrol, Caltex, BP all package "no name" brand oils

I haven't got a clue where it might have come from, which seems to the
whole idea behind no name, homebrand or whatever.... They no doubt
source it from whoever matches their pricing criteria. Course there's
always been the story, and always unsubstantiated, that so and so's no
name oil is in fact GTX, or whatever, in disguise.

If the oil is the same standard as some of the shit that passes for
homebrand groceries then I'd just as soon leave it on the shelf.

>
>Funny Caltex has the best mineral diesel engine oils on the market

Maybe, maybe not. Back in the dark distant days when I had a
government job I know whose diesel engine oil was regarded as the best
(and which had the lion's share of government and military contracts)
and it certainly wasn't them.

They're also a company who doesn't want to know about it when
something does go wrong, as a few people I know have learnt the hard
way. Two recent incidents of which I have first hand knowledge would
scare the shit out anybody, but I'm not quite so stupid as to spill
the beans here.

--
John H

[atec]

John_H wrote:

> kevcat wrote:
>
>>so where do you suggest the oil comes from?
>>Castrol, Caltex, BP all package "no name" brand oils
>
>
> I haven't got a clue where it might have come from, which seems to the
> whole idea behind no name, homebrand or whatever.... They no doubt
> source it from whoever matches their pricing criteria. Course there's
> always been the story, and always unsubstantiated, that so and so's no
> name oil is in fact GTX, or whatever, in disguise.
>
> If the oil is the same standard as some of the shit that passes for
> homebrand groceries then I'd just as soon leave it on the shelf.
>
>
>>Funny Caltex has the best mineral diesel engine oils on the market
>
>
> Maybe, maybe not. Back in the dark distant days when I had a
> government job I know whose diesel engine oil was regarded as the best
> (and which had the lion's share of government and military contracts)
> and it certainly wasn't them.
>
> They're also a company who doesn't want to know about it when
> something does go wrong, as a few people I know have learnt the hard
> way. Two recent incidents of which I have first hand knowledge would
> scare the shit out anybody, but I'm not quite so stupid as to spill
> the beans here.
>
> --
> John H
Oh.. whos a good boy then ?

[duffo21]

Thanks a lot for all the people who answered my question. Your input is
much appreciated.

Funnily enough I work for Woolies full time at a supermarket. Just to
clarify, a lot of homebrand products are sourced from major brand name
companies. For example, Homebrand soft drink and fruit juice is made by P&N
(Pure and Natural) and Homebrand Ham in the cold section is made by Hans.
I'm not sure who they contract to make the oil though.

Thanks Again

duffo21

[kevcat]

In Brisbane most of the major oils are produced by ALMC(Aust Lube
Manufacturing Co)
BP, Caltex, Castrol(Castrol being owned by BP), Mobil and many "Home
Brand" oils
they are located at the Caltex products terminal at Lytton


Kev

duffo21 wrote:
>
> Thanks a lot for all the people who answered my question. Your input is
> much appreciated.
>
> Funnily enough I work for Woolies full time at a supermarket. Just to
> clarify, a lot of homebrand products are sourced from major brand name
> companies. For example, Homebrand soft drink and fruit juice is made by P&N
> (Pure and Natural) and Homebrand Ham in the cold section is made by Hans.
> I'm not sure who they contract to make the oil though.
>
> Thanks Again
>
> duffo21

[Ext User(Hotman Paris Hutapea)]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:17:32 GMT, "duffo21" <duffo21@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Thanks a lot for all the people who answered my question. Your input is
>much appreciated.
>
>Funnily enough I work for Woolies full time at a supermarket. Just to
>clarify, a lot of homebrand products are sourced from major brand name
>companies. For example, Homebrand soft drink and fruit juice is made by P&N
>(Pure and Natural) and Homebrand Ham in the cold section is made by Hans.
>I'm not sure who they contract to make the oil though.

they just buy it the same way. i've checked on those Home Brand oil
packages that most people would never touch and they are normally
marked with the appropriate API certification.

people are such slaves to brand names.

--

Attorney at Law
5/37 Paknabiel Way
Denpasar, Indonesia.