LPG advice

[Ext User(Mark)]

Hi there,

I'm looking around at getting a used locally built 6 cyl on LPG, probably
under 3 years old.

I've never had a car with LPG before. Are there higher servicing costs? Any
maintenance issues that make it more difficult to live with than a petrol
car?

Also, can anyone recommend the most reliable / best performing LPG systems?

Are you better off with an aftermarket kit? Or a factory dedicated or dual
fuel option? (Is there much difference between what Ford/Holden/Mitsubishi
offer? Most taxi's here are Falcons, so I guess that's saying something? :-)

I think I'd be more comfortable with a dual system for the increased range,
but how much does this impact engine performance on lpg over having the
engine optimised in a dedicated lpg system?

Thanks.

[Ext User(John McKenzie)]

Mark wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> I'm looking around at getting a used locally built 6 cyl on LPG, probably
> under 3 years old.

Generally stay away from V6 commodores (though I'm haven't heard
anything about the alloytechs, so maybe they don't suffer the same
problems the earlier ones did) , and look at the fords BUT definitely
don't use the factory fitted/authorised lpg setups on them, they are not
as good (and very few decent lpg fitters would use that gear on their
own cars, and only on customer cars if the customer wanted a complete
tightarse option, and didn't care about sub par equipment). There are
some people with factory ford lpg setups that claim they are ok, but
it's hard to rule out brand loyalty over objective commentary sometimes.


> I've never had a car with LPG before. Are there higher servicing costs?

Generally no. on lpg engines tend to last as much as double the kms
between rebuilds (not that you'll likely get near that if it's a 3 yr
old car!) The fuel is (as implied) a gas, so none of it gets on the bore
walls diluting the oil film and gets past the rings contaminating the
oil. Oil will appear to stay clean significantly longer, but it can
still have pH issues and should be changed on the same regular basis.

Any
> maintenance issues that make it more difficult to live with than a petrol
> car?

Not really. On a much older car you'd look at making sure the ignition
system was in a1 condition before hte conversion as they tend to be more
fickle at cold start and idle than on petrol, but it won't be an issue
on any new car.

>
> Also, can anyone recommend the most reliable / best performing LPG systems?

Do a google on this newsgroup, 'lpg' and possibly 'best' as the key
words, it's been covered in some detail.

>
> Are you better off with an aftermarket kit? Or a factory dedicated or dual
> fuel option? (Is there much difference between what Ford/Holden/Mitsubishi
> offer? Most taxi's here are Falcons, so I guess that's saying something? :-)

it is. About the way commodores tend to have big inlet manifold
backfires from their management (and wasted spark system)
misinterpretting what's going on sometimes with lpg.

ALthough dual fuel can be handy, personally I run straight lpg on
practically everything I have ever had. And didn't miss petrol at all.
People with 'just' petrol setups have no issues, why should anyone with
straight lpg. I go from Melboourne to Sydney from time to time (friends,
weddings, funerals whatever) and even to Brisbane and I haven't had any
issues going back to the early 1990s with getting lpg all the way
through. It'd be a very tiny %age of people who live in a part of the
country where lpg isn't available.


>
> I think I'd be more comfortable with a dual system for the increased range,
> but how much does this impact engine performance on lpg over having the
> engine optimised in a dedicated lpg system?

honestly, even dual fuel these days (iof the system is well thought out)
is fairly seamless in performance between the two. Some older, (or
crappy) lpg setups have unfairly created a myth aboiut it losing heaps
of power. The one thing to be aware of is the economy on lpg will
decrease. This is to be expected as the heat energy available by volume
of lpg is lower. It's probably around the 10% vs petrol decrease. If you
really wanted to (but it'd take years to pay itself off) you could
hypothetically rebuild the motor with higher compression (lpg safe
within reason) and it would return the economy to that of petrol.



--
John McKenzie

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abuse@federalpolice.gov.au

[Ext User(Dan---)]

John McKenzie wrote:

> Mark wrote:
>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>I'm looking around at getting a used locally built 6 cyl on LPG, probably
>>under 3 years old.
>
>
> Generally stay away from V6 commodores (though I'm haven't heard
> anything about the alloytechs, so maybe they don't suffer the same
> problems the earlier ones did)

They are/have developed an LPG system for the Alloytec but only on the
Exec V6 and base model utes bit like the Falcon only on certain models.
usually piss poor ignition leads and wrong spart plug gap causes the
intake blow out.

--
Regards
Dan.

[Ext User(Dan---)]

Dan--- wrote:
wrong spart plug gap causes the

Jesus my spelling has gone to shit house must of been the fumes from
cleaning chemicals.



--
Regards
Dan.

[Ext User(crazy ron bakir)]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:01:36 +1000, John McKenzie
<jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote:

>
>honestly, even dual fuel these days (iof the system is well thought out)
>is fairly seamless in performance between the two. Some older, (or
>crappy) lpg setups have unfairly created a myth aboiut it losing heaps
>of power.

the LPG falcon does 156 kW down from 182, that's a fair loss

--

managing director and CEO
crazy ron's mobile phones
gold coast, qld.

[Ext User(athol)]

crazy ron bakir <support@myphoneshop.com> wrote:
> John McKenzie <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote:

>>honestly, even dual fuel these days (iof the system is well thought out)
>>is fairly seamless in performance between the two. Some older, (or
>>crappy) lpg setups have unfairly created a myth aboiut it losing heaps
>>of power.

> the LPG falcon does 156 kW down from 182, that's a fair loss

Compare equivalent technology.

Find a carby version of the engine if you're going to compare the LPG carby
system they're using, or compare even the vapour phase injection system
that was shown on "The New Inventors" a while back to the petrol injection
system on the falcon.

The fact that the AU LPG carby engine made the same power as the AU EFI
petrol engine is fairly impressive in context. IIRC, Noddy mentioned a
while back that the LPG engine runs the same computer as the petrol engine,
with no extra advance. Hence, a relatively small computer alteration
could have put the LPG engine noticably ahead of the petrol engine.

In spite of being noticably down on power, the BA LPG engine sells quite
well into the target market - taxis, etc..

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(crazy ron bakir)]

On 27 Aug 2005 02:39:01 GMT, athol <me@privacy.net> wrote:


>> the LPG falcon does 156 kW down from 182, that's a fair loss
>
>Compare equivalent technology.
>
>Find a carby version of the engine if you're going to compare the LPG carby
>system they're using, or compare even the vapour phase injection system
>that was shown on "The New Inventors" a while back to the petrol injection
>system on the falcon.
>
i dont doubt LPG works. E10 is in the same boat, there's no reason it
can't work on a technical level but cars are designed for petrol and
then modified (or not) for alternative fuels.

>The fact that the AU LPG carby engine made the same power as the AU EFI
>petrol engine is fairly impressive in context. IIRC, Noddy mentioned a
>while back that the LPG engine runs the same computer as the petrol engine,
>with no extra advance. Hence, a relatively small computer alteration
>could have put the LPG engine noticably ahead of the petrol engine.
>
>In spite of being noticably down on power, the BA LPG engine sells quite
>well into the target market - taxis, etc..

i guess taxis don't care whether they lose that 20 kW, they run on
economic terms. if ford or others want to cut into the private market
then they'd have to start looking at a more refined product.

the problem is the market just isn't big enough in australia to
justify that kind of development.

my impression is that LPG seems to be an aussie fuel, afaik it isn't
used widely overseas, there aren't that many off-the-shelf injection
systems ready for fitment?

--

managing director and CEO
crazy ron's mobile phones
gold coast, qld.

[Ext User(athol)]

crazy ron bakir <support@myphoneshop.com> wrote:
> On 27 Aug 2005 02:39:01 GMT, athol <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> i dont doubt LPG works. E10 is in the same boat, there's no reason it
> can't work on a technical level but cars are designed for petrol and
> then modified (or not) for alternative fuels.

The problem is inadequate modifications and/or undersized LPG parts.

An inlet manifold designed to carry only air to the intake (because the
fuel is being delivered at injectors at the head) will be undersized in
terms of carrying LPG and petrol mixture to the engine, so a proper LPG
engine should have a different inlet manifold with proportionally larger
runners.

In the case of carburetted engines, petrol systems always add heat to
the inlet to make sure that the petrol vapourises better. LPG does not
need nor want that extra heat. It's actually the opposite - you want
to get the density up as much as possible by getting the intake as cold
as possible. That means drawing cold air from outside the engine bay
and either blocking heat passages in the inlet manifold or fitting a
manifold that doesn't have heat passages.

Petrol doesn't like too much compression. LPG will take _considerably_
more. In the order of 10.5:1 on cast iron V8 heads and 11.5:1 on alloy
V8 heads for example. In contrast, the same engine with CI heads would
be okay on (leaded) 97 octane petrol at 9.25:1. Obviously, not raising
the CR means the efficiency isn't as high as it could easily be.

Obviously, an engine with higher compression will also benefit from a
better flowing exhaust system (eg extractors) _more_ than a lower
compression engine.

The timing requirements of LPG often get mentioned but equally often
are not really done right - the AU falcon being a prime example.

How often do you hear about people modifying their engine _that_ much
when converting to dedicated LPG? That's the sort of effort that Ford,
for example, needs to put into their LPG engine.

As I said above, the other issue is undersized LPG equipment. How many
people realise that one of the popular Italian brands of convertor have
a vapourisation rate in kg/h stamped on the back, and that the rate
translates to 130HP? I've seen them on 308s, 350s and 351s!!! When I
commented about it to an installer, his arguement was that you hardly
ever use full power anyway!?!

> i guess taxis don't care whether they lose that 20 kW, they run on
> economic terms. if ford or others want to cut into the private market
> then they'd have to start looking at a more refined product.

Precisely what I've been saying for a long time. Throwing LPG onto the
turbo engine from the XR6T is the easiest way...

> the problem is the market just isn't big enough in australia to
> justify that kind of development.

The problem is that if the market gets too big, government will want
more tax err excise from it and will push the price up such that it
becomes uneconomic. Ironic considering that, in greenhouse gas
emission terms, they should be actively encouraging it...

> my impression is that LPG seems to be an aussie fuel, afaik it isn't
> used widely overseas, there aren't that many off-the-shelf injection
> systems ready for fitment?

The only lpg group in usenet is a UK group. Plenty of LPG use
including on quite small vehicles in EU. Also used in US/Canada and in
some cities in asia - the latter being primarily in taxis to try to
reduce pollution.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"crazy ron bakir" <support@myphoneshop.com> wrote in message
news:csnvg1d9j80f7cj3ahess2534cmin44gaf@4ax.com...

> my impression is that LPG seems to be an aussie fuel, afaik it isn't
> used widely overseas, there aren't that many off-the-shelf injection
> systems ready for fitment?

It's quite popular overseas, and most LPG equipment comes from either the US
or Italy.

I expect with the current petrol prices in America, it's probably more
popular over there now than ever before. They also have the advantage of
being sold pure propane at every filling station too, the bastards :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(nva)]

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:47:04 +0000, Noddy wrote:

>
> "crazy ron bakir" <support@myphoneshop.com> wrote in message
> news:csnvg1d9j80f7cj3ahess2534cmin44gaf@4ax.com...
>
>> my impression is that LPG seems to be an aussie fuel, afaik it isn't
>> used widely overseas, there aren't that many off-the-shelf injection
>> systems ready for fitment?
>
> It's quite popular overseas, and most LPG equipment comes from either the
> US or Italy.
>
> I expect with the current petrol prices in America, it's probably more
> popular over there now than ever before. They also have the advantage of
> being sold pure propane at every filling station too, the bastards :)

Their servos only sell propane and propane accessories ;)

[Ext User(atec)]

athol wrote:

> crazy ron bakir <support@myphoneshop.com> wrote:
>
>>John McKenzie <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>>honestly, even dual fuel these days (iof the system is well thought out)
>>>is fairly seamless in performance between the two. Some older, (or
>>>crappy) lpg setups have unfairly created a myth aboiut it losing heaps
>>>of power.
>
>
>>the LPG falcon does 156 kW down from 182, that's a fair loss
>
>
> Compare equivalent technology.
>
> Find a carby version of the engine if you're going to compare the LPG carby
> system they're using, or compare even the vapour phase injection system
> that was shown on "The New Inventors" a while back to the petrol injection
> system on the falcon.
>
> The fact that the AU LPG carby engine made the same power as the AU EFI
> petrol engine is fairly impressive in context. IIRC, Noddy mentioned a
> while back that the LPG engine runs the same computer as the petrol engine,
> with no extra advance. Hence, a relatively small computer alteration
> could have put the LPG engine noticably ahead of the petrol engine.
>
> In spite of being noticably down on power, the BA LPG engine sells quite
> well into the target market - taxis, etc..
>
The lpg motor with some firmware changes and a cam mod makes slightly
better power than petrol , and is a little smother and better starting

[Ext User(athol)]

atec <atec77@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
> athol wrote:

> The lpg motor with some firmware changes and a cam mod makes slightly
> better power than petrol , and is a little smother and better starting

AU or BA?

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(atec)]

athol wrote:
> atec <atec77@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>athol wrote:
>
>
>>The lpg motor with some firmware changes and a cam mod makes slightly
>>better power than petrol , and is a little smother and better starting
>
>
> AU or BA?
>
ba

[Ext User(Mark)]

Hi John,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Exactly what I was after.

Cheers,

Mark

"John McKenzie" <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:430EBE50.4AC6@alphalink.com.au...
> Mark wrote:
>>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I'm looking around at getting a used locally built 6 cyl on LPG, probably
>> under 3 years old.
>
> Generally stay away from V6 commodores (though I'm haven't heard
> anything about the alloytechs, so maybe they don't suffer the same
> problems the earlier ones did) , and look at the fords BUT definitely
> don't use the factory fitted/authorised lpg setups on them, they are not
> as good (and very few decent lpg fitters would use that gear on their
> own cars, and only on customer cars if the customer wanted a complete
> tightarse option, and didn't care about sub par equipment). There are
> some people with factory ford lpg setups that claim they are ok, but
> it's hard to rule out brand loyalty over objective commentary sometimes.
>
>
>> I've never had a car with LPG before. Are there higher servicing costs?
>
> Generally no. on lpg engines tend to last as much as double the kms
> between rebuilds (not that you'll likely get near that if it's a 3 yr
> old car!) The fuel is (as implied) a gas, so none of it gets on the bore
> walls diluting the oil film and gets past the rings contaminating the
> oil. Oil will appear to stay clean significantly longer, but it can
> still have pH issues and should be changed on the same regular basis.
>
> Any
>> maintenance issues that make it more difficult to live with than a petrol
>> car?
>
> Not really. On a much older car you'd look at making sure the ignition
> system was in a1 condition before hte conversion as they tend to be more
> fickle at cold start and idle than on petrol, but it won't be an issue
> on any new car.
>
>>
>> Also, can anyone recommend the most reliable / best performing LPG
>> systems?
>
> Do a google on this newsgroup, 'lpg' and possibly 'best' as the key
> words, it's been covered in some detail.
>
>>
>> Are you better off with an aftermarket kit? Or a factory dedicated or
>> dual
>> fuel option? (Is there much difference between what
>> Ford/Holden/Mitsubishi
>> offer? Most taxi's here are Falcons, so I guess that's saying something?
>> :-)
>
> it is. About the way commodores tend to have big inlet manifold
> backfires from their management (and wasted spark system)
> misinterpretting what's going on sometimes with lpg.
>
> ALthough dual fuel can be handy, personally I run straight lpg on
> practically everything I have ever had. And didn't miss petrol at all.
> People with 'just' petrol setups have no issues, why should anyone with
> straight lpg. I go from Melboourne to Sydney from time to time (friends,
> weddings, funerals whatever) and even to Brisbane and I haven't had any
> issues going back to the early 1990s with getting lpg all the way
> through. It'd be a very tiny %age of people who live in a part of the
> country where lpg isn't available.
>
>
>>
>> I think I'd be more comfortable with a dual system for the increased
>> range,
>> but how much does this impact engine performance on lpg over having the
>> engine optimised in a dedicated lpg system?
>
> honestly, even dual fuel these days (iof the system is well thought out)
> is fairly seamless in performance between the two. Some older, (or
> crappy) lpg setups have unfairly created a myth aboiut it losing heaps
> of power. The one thing to be aware of is the economy on lpg will
> decrease. This is to be expected as the heat energy available by volume
> of lpg is lower. It's probably around the 10% vs petrol decrease. If you
> really wanted to (but it'd take years to pay itself off) you could
> hypothetically rebuild the motor with higher compression (lpg safe
> within reason) and it would return the economy to that of petrol.
>
>
>
> --
> John McKenzie
>
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