Question RE: Unfair Dismissal

[Ext User(Daniel)]

I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months
in a new job. My employers informed me that they were under no
obligation to provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still
within my initial 3-month probationary period.

However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered
the job. I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual
contract.

Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied
with?

[Ext User(Just JT)]

"Daniel" <daniel@ciddor.com> wrote in message
news:2005082821481916807%daniel@fe02.buzzardnews.c om...
>I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months in a
>new job. My employers informed me that they were under no obligation to
>provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still within my initial
>3-month probationary period.
>
> However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
> probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered the
> job. I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual contract.
>
> Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
> included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
> dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
> warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied with?
---------------
Does it really matter? If your employer doesn't want you, then why force the
issue? Accept your four-weeks' notice and start looking for a new job.

How come there are "unfair" dismissal laws but there are no "unfair"
resignation laws? I say the less laws we have, the more efficient the
economy will be.

--
WordOfHonourAndGoodwillIsTheBestDeal

[Ext User(Rod Speed)]

Daniel <daniel@ciddor.com> wrote

> I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months in a
> new job.

And it's obvious why they chose to do that.

> My employers informed me that they were under no
> obligation to provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still within
> my initial 3-month probationary period.

They're right.

> However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
> probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered the
> job.

Bet they did tell you about the probationary
period before giving you the job.

> I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual contract.

> Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether included
> in the contract or not,

No, but they would have told you that a probationary period applied.

> or have my employers breached unfair dismissal legislation by failing to give
> me appropriate warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were
> unsatisfied with?

Nope.

[Ext User(Ernest)]

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:48:19 +1000, Daniel <daniel@ciddor.com> wrote:

>I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months
>in a new job. My employers informed me that they were under no
>obligation to provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still
>within my initial 3-month probationary period.
>
>However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
>probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered
>the job. I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual
>contract.
>
>Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
>included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
>dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
>warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied
>with?

Was the original contract for 3 months? If so they
could wait until the last day and tell you not to
bother coming tomorrow. As it is you get 4 weeks
pay for doing nothing.

It is common now to employ people on a 3 month
probation contract and then make a decisions, by
using a contract they are ensuring legal coverage
of the limitation but also accept the need to pay you
for 3 months.

Deadly Ernest
(typographical errors deliberately included to test
the reader's skills - anyway - that's my excuse.)

[Ext User(Phil Allison)]

"Just JT"
>
> "Daniel"
>>I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months in
>>a new job. My employers informed me that they were under no obligation to
>>provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still within my initial
>>3-month probationary period.
>>
>> However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
>> probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered
>> the job. I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual
>> contract.
>>
>> Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
>> included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
>> dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
>> warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied with?
> ---------------
> Does it really matter?


** Yes - you pig ignorant arsehole.


> If your employer doesn't want you, then why force the issue?


** The issue is one of compensation - fuckhead.


> Accept your four-weeks' notice and start looking for a new job.


** What a Nazi.


> How come there are "unfair" dismissal laws but there are no "unfair"
> resignation laws?


** Because we do not have forced labour in Australia.


> I say the less laws we have, the more efficient the economy will be.


** Fascist arsehole.




.......... Phil

[Ext User(Just JT)]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> ** Yes - you pig ignorant arsehole.
----------------
FLATTERY will get you nowhere. :-)

>
>> If your employer doesn't want you, then why force the issue?
>
>
> ** The issue is one of compensation - fuckhead.
-----------------
Compensation for what? He has a three-month contract. He will be paid for
three months and that's that.

>
>> Accept your four-weeks' notice and start looking for a new job.
>
>
> ** What a Nazi.
---------------
No, it's called FREE MARKET ECONOMY.

>
>> How come there are "unfair" dismissal laws but there are no "unfair"
>> resignation laws?
>
>
> ** Because we do not have forced labour in Australia.
-----------------
Exactly, noone is being forced to work in Australia. Thus, all unfair
dismissal laws should be rescinded. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT is the best policy.

--
AllUnionsShouldBeAbolishedAsWell

[Ext User(MrFlibble)]

In article <2005082821481916807%daniel@fe02.buzzardnews.com>, Daniel
<daniel@ciddor.com> wrote:

> Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
> included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
> dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
> warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied
> with?

Seeing no one gave you a real answer (the only non-troll response was
from Ernest).

The Work Place Relations Act 1996 (Cth) s170CBA, there is an exclusion
for this sort of thing:


(c) an employee serving a period of probation, if the duration of the
period or the maximum duration of the period, as the case may be, is
determined in advance and, either:
(i) the period, or the maximum duration, is 3 months or less; or
(ii) the period, or the maximum duration:
(A) is more than 3 months; and
(B) is reasonable, having regard to the nature and circumstances of the
employment;

My reading of this is you might have a case. This exclusion is present
IF the probation is determined in advance. If your employment contract
does not stipulate a probation period, the employer is SOOL.

So it comes down to contract law. With implied terms in a contract it
is possible to have an implied term by custom within the industry. This
MAY come under this definition.

But then there's the question of damages. The amount of damages you'll
get is difference between when you were fired (less the 4 weeks notice)
and the time it takes to get another job. Take away lawyer fees and the
chances are this isn't worth pursuing.

[Ext User(Phil Allison)]

"Just JT" = Fascist Pig Moron

> "Phil Allison"
>>
>> ** Yes - you pig ignorant arsehole.

> FLATTERY will get you nowhere. :-)


** How about " asinine cunt " then ?


>>
>>> If your employer doesn't want you, then why force the issue?
>>
>>
>> ** The issue is one of compensation - bulkhead.
> -----------------
> Compensation for what? He has a three-month contract.
> He will be paid for three months and that's that.


** So the lying fascist pig cannot even read a post .


>
>>> Accept your four-weeks' notice and start looking for a new job.
>>
>>
>> ** What a Nazi.
> ---------------
> No, it's called FREE MARKET ECONOMY.


** Fascist pig's version.


>>
>>> How come there are "unfair" dismissal laws but there are no "unfair"
>>> resignation laws?
>>
>>
>> ** Because we do not have forced labour in Australia.
> -----------------
> Exactly, noone is being forced to work in Australia. Thus, all unfair
> dismissal laws should be rescinded. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT is the best
> policy.


** Completely anencephalic fascist pig version.


> AllUnionsShouldBeAbolishedAsWell


** Another trolling psycho - yawn.





............. Phil

[Ext User(Just JT)]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> ** Another trolling psycho - yawn.
----------------
If you believe I'm a troll, what's stopping you from killfiling me?

--
PutUpOrShutUp

[Ext User(Phil Allison)]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:21:42 +1000, Just JT wrote:

> "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> ** Another trolling psycho - yawn.
> ----------------
> If you believe I'm a troll, what's stopping you from killfiling me?


** My toaster does not have a *killfile* !*&^%$#@!




......... Phil

[Ext User(Seppo Renfors)]

MrFlibble wrote:
>
> In article <2005082821481916807%daniel@fe02.buzzardnews.com>, Daniel
> <daniel@ciddor.com> wrote:
>
> > Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
> > included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
> > dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
> > warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied
> > with?
>
> Seeing no one gave you a real answer (the only non-troll response was
> from Ernest).
>
> The Work Place Relations Act 1996 (Cth) s170CBA, there is an exclusion
> for this sort of thing:
>
> (c) an employee serving a period of probation, if the duration of the
> period or the maximum duration of the period, as the case may be, is
> determined in advance and, either:
> (i) the period, or the maximum duration, is 3 months or less; or
> (ii) the period, or the maximum duration:
> (A) is more than 3 months; and
> (B) is reasonable, having regard to the nature and circumstances of the
> employment;
>
> My reading of this is you might have a case. This exclusion is present
> IF the probation is determined in advance. If your employment contract
> does not stipulate a probation period, the employer is SOOL.

Please note that it has been ASSUMED to exist in the past even if not
specifically mentioned. Also note the OP claims "included in the
contract or not" - a written contract. One that normally deals with
the employment on the satisfactory completion of a probationary
period. He does not state he was not aware of its existence. It can be
stated verbally and has equal force.

> So it comes down to contract law. With implied terms in a contract it
> is possible to have an implied term by custom within the industry. This
> MAY come under this definition.

I would suggest this is the case. There are many things that are
considered to be "common knowledge" so they need not specifically be
mentioned and are to be taken as understood. It is also true that
convention has been for a 3 months probationary period. Such have been
included in awards.

> But then there's the question of damages. The amount of damages you'll
> get is difference between when you were fired (less the 4 weeks notice)
> and the time it takes to get another job. Take away lawyer fees and the
> chances are this isn't worth pursuing.

Quite frankly, I think 4 weeks notice is extremely generous and would
more than cover any potential "damages" should such a case get up (and
I doubt it would). No notice is required to be given during a
probationary period according to schedule 10, Part 1, article 2 of the
Act.

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Ext User(MrFlibble)]

In article <431294ba$0$5426$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, Just
JT <JohnnyThor@Hotmale.Com> wrote:

> Compensation for what? He has a three-month contract. He will be paid for
> three months and that's that.

No he does not have a three month contract. I see your mastery of
contract law is just as high as your mastery of IP law... not a clue in
anything.

[Ext User(Just JT)]

"MrFlibble" <figfhifih@fifihfg.com> wrote:
>
> No he does not have a three month contract.
-----------------
If there is no contract then there is no obligation. It can't be anymore
simpler than that.

--
WhyMakeThingsMoreComplicatedThanTheyShould?

[Ext User(MrFlibble)]

In article <4312ba74$0$5524$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, Just
JT <JohnnyThor@Hotmale.Com> wrote:

> "MrFlibble" <figfhifih@fifihfg.com> wrote:
> >
> > No he does not have a three month contract.
> -----------------
> If there is no contract then there is no obligation. It can't be anymore
> simpler than that.

There is a contract, not a 3 month one. You obviously can get simpler
than that.

[Ext User(free2002)]

ok John but i thought you would be too busy running the country & kissing up
to Bush's ass to be posting in NGs?!

"Just JT" <JohnnyThor@Hotmale.Com> wrote in message
news:4312367f$0$6158$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshostin g.com...
>
> "Daniel" <daniel@ciddor.com> wrote in message
> news:2005082821481916807%daniel@fe02.buzzardnews.c om...
>>I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months in
>>a new job. My employers informed me that they were under no obligation to
>>provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still within my initial
>>3-month probationary period.
>>
>> However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
>> probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered
>> the job. I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual
>> contract.
>>
>> Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
>> included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
>> dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
>> warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied with?
> ---------------
> Does it really matter? If your employer doesn't want you, then why force
> the issue? Accept your four-weeks' notice and start looking for a new job.
>
> How come there are "unfair" dismissal laws but there are no "unfair"
> resignation laws? I say the less laws we have, the more efficient the
> economy will be.
>
> --
> WordOfHonourAndGoodwillIsTheBestDeal
>
>

[Ext User(V©)]

Actually if you even think of unfair dismissal one of the first things in
the criteria is a question if you are within your three months probation
period. For full time employment. Three months probation period is normal
and very much within any laws of employments and any award. If you are
employed as a casual there is no probation period at all though if you
manage to last 6 months or longer then you get unfair dismissal rights.

Generally unless otherwise stated within a work place agreement YES the 3
months probation is legal regardless of any notice of it being given before
employment. Though I doubt that any employer would not mention it.

In any case you are being given 4 weeks notice of termination so what is the
problem. The real question here seems to be if that is ok. It is.
Normally you would only get two weeks notice as a point under most awards.
Your employer seems to be generous here.





"Daniel" <daniel@ciddor.com> wrote in message
news:2005082821481916807%daniel@fe02.buzzardnews.c om...
>I have recently been given my four weeks' notice after only two months in a
>new job. My employers informed me that they were under no obligation to
>provide any explanation or prior warning, as I was still within my initial
>3-month probationary period.
>
> However, my employment contract does not mention anywhere a 3 month
> probationary period, and this was never discussed before I was offered the
> job. I was employed as a permanent employee on an individual contract.
>
> Is the 3 month probationary period legally assumed to exist whether
> included in the contract or not, or have my employers breached unfair
> dismissal legislation by failing to give me appropriate
> warning/counselling and time to fix whatever they were unsatisfied with?

[Ext User(Just JT)]

"V©" <nope@naaaa.naaa.naaa> wrote:
>
> In any case you are being given 4 weeks notice of termination so what is
> the problem.
---------------
The problem is the original poster can't admit to himself that he SUCKS as
an employee that's why his employer doesn't want him anymore.

--
WinnersBlameThemselvesLosersBlameEveryoneElse

[Ext User(V©)]

In all fairness it does suck to lose a job with or without any reasonable
explaination. I think we can all attest to that. I have lost jobs for
little or no reason in the past and it sucks. However if it is within the
first three months then their is very little anyone can do about it unless
they have a work place agreement in place protecting them during this time.
Getting upset and angry will only serve to upset the person who was
dismissed and not the employer. It is better that they move on and get
another job. Who knows maybe their next job will be better :)


"Just JT" <JohnnyThor@Hotmale.Com> wrote in message
news:4314445d$0$18220$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
> "V©" <nope@naaaa.naaa.naaa> wrote:
>>
>> In any case you are being given 4 weeks notice of termination so what is
>> the problem.
> ---------------
> The problem is the original poster can't admit to himself that he SUCKS as
> an employee that's why his employer doesn't want him anymore.
>
> --
> WinnersBlameThemselvesLosersBlameEveryoneElse
>
>

[Ext User(Phil Allison)]

"V©"
>
> In all fairness it does suck to lose a job with or without any reasonable
> explaination. I think we can all attest to that. I have lost jobs for
> little or no reason in the past and it sucks. However if it is within the
> first three months then their is very little anyone can do about it unless
> they have a work place agreement in place protecting them during this
> time. Getting upset and angry will only serve to upset the person who was
> dismissed and not the employer. It is better that they move on and get
> another job. Who knows maybe their next job will be better :)
>


** Being dismissed with no reason given after a few weeks in a new job can
be a major disaster for some people. When they apply for another position,
their previous employment history will be a major issue and that sort of
event is a very black mark against them. It may almost render them
unemployable in their chosen field, forcing many to lie about it at job
interviews.

Arbitrary dismissal is essentially the same as publicly libelling a person
as well as simultaneously denying them an income.

THAT is why they get so damn angry.

The whole reason for "unfair dismissal" laws is to minimise or prevent this
kind of mistreatment of people by employers.




........... Phil

[Ext User(Heretic)]

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 12:38:47 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

>
> "V©"
>>
>> In all fairness it does suck to lose a job with or without any reasonable
>> explaination. I think we can all attest to that. I have lost jobs for
>> little or no reason in the past and it sucks. However if it is within the
>> first three months then their is very little anyone can do about it unless
>> they have a work place agreement in place protecting them during this
>> time. Getting upset and angry will only serve to upset the person who was
>> dismissed and not the employer. It is better that they move on and get
>> another job. Who knows maybe their next job will be better :)
>>
>
>
> ** Being dismissed with no reason given after a few weeks in a new job can
> be a major disaster for some people. When they apply for another position,
> their previous employment history will be a major issue and that sort of
> event is a very black mark against them. It may almost render them
> unemployable in their chosen field, forcing many to lie about it at job
> interviews.
>
> Arbitrary dismissal is essentially the same as publicly libelling a person
> as well as simultaneously denying them an income.
>
> THAT is why they get so damn angry.
>
> The whole reason for "unfair dismissal" laws is to minimise or prevent this
> kind of mistreatment of people by employers.

Any authority for that claim of the reason for those laws? Any at all?