underdrive pully kits are a big nono for the Ford V8's

[Ext User(Dan---)]

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=26133

Can cause oil pump failures
interesting.
--
Regards
Dan

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Dan---" <noemail@here.com> wrote in message
news:436eb0a1$0$14262$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=26133
>
> Can cause oil pump failures
> interesting.

Changing the crank pulley from the one the crank was originally balanced
with isn't a good idea in most cases, especially if the engine is externally
balanced like most Fords are, but I can't see how doing so could cause an
oil pump failure.

My guess is two things are probably happening: One is that the Ford engines
have an oil pump weakness that shows up when thrashed, and the second is
people who pay big money for smaller pulleys in order to chase power are
fucking idiots :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:436ef023$1@news.comindico.com.au...
>
> "Dan---" <noemail@here.com> wrote in message
> news:436eb0a1$0$14262$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> > http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=26133
> >
> > Can cause oil pump failures
> > interesting.
>
> Changing the crank pulley from the one the crank was originally balanced
> with isn't a good idea in most cases, especially if the engine is
externally
> balanced like most Fords are, but I can't see how doing so could cause an
> oil pump failure.
>
> My guess is two things are probably happening: One is that the Ford
engines
> have an oil pump weakness that shows up when thrashed, and the second is
> people who pay big money for smaller pulleys in order to chase power are
> fucking idiots :)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.

What I noticed about the Cleveland oil-pump, was the hex drive shaft was not
centred in the dizzy's lower bush, which meant there was a constant bias on
the drive. Not sure whether this constituted a problem given the force of
the dynamics of the pump at operating revs/ The drive shaft seemed too long.

Jason

[Ext User(Kieron)]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:11:48 GMT, "Noddy" <dg4163@dodo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Dan---" <noemail@here.com> wrote in message
>news:436eb0a1$0$14262$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=26133
>>
>> Can cause oil pump failures
>> interesting.
>
>Changing the crank pulley from the one the crank was originally balanced
>with isn't a good idea in most cases, especially if the engine is externally
>balanced like most Fords are, but I can't see how doing so could cause an
>oil pump failure.
>
>My guess is two things are probably happening: One is that the Ford engines
>have an oil pump weakness that shows up when thrashed, and the second is
>people who pay big money for smaller pulleys in order to chase power are
>fucking idiots :)

IIRC, the oil pump in these donks arn't the typical config, they are
somehow 'wrapped' around the front of the crank and driven directly
off it.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Kieron" <kieronm302@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4372bf5c.5576343@203.50.2.233...

> IIRC, the oil pump in these donks arn't the typical config, they are
> somehow 'wrapped' around the front of the crank and driven directly
> off it.

Yeah, there's a few different engines employing that idea, and it's a pretty
piss weak one if the oil pump can be killed simply by changing the pulley
diameter.

Personally I think it's a problem with the oil pump itself that's brought to
light when the cars get a caning.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(John McKenzie)]

Kieron wrote:

>
> IIRC, the oil pump in these donks arn't the typical config, they are
> somehow 'wrapped' around the front of the crank and driven directly
> off it.

being too lazy to browse to the link provided...

Is the replacement a combo of larger accessory pulleys and smaller crank
pulley? If it's just the former, I can't see it happening. If it's the
latter as well it might still not be happening. Are they replacing the
balancer (or more accurately the damper) as well, or is the pulley not
integrated with it - i.e. just bolted on. If it's replacing the whole
lot, I wouldn't doubt for a second that something like this might
happen.

Apparently a few honda racers in the US have seen ridiculously short
engine life (I think it hammered out the big end bearings from memory)
when running solid crank pulleys in place of the factory damper etc,
just to get a slightly less power sapping accessory drive arrangement.
Dickheads.


--
John McKenzie

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[Ext User(Kieron)]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:48:07 GMT, "Noddy" <dg4163@dodo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Kieron" <kieronm302@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4372bf5c.5576343@203.50.2.233...
>
>> IIRC, the oil pump in these donks arn't the typical config, they are
>> somehow 'wrapped' around the front of the crank and driven directly
>> off it.
>
>Yeah, there's a few different engines employing that idea, and it's a pretty
>piss weak one if the oil pump can be killed simply by changing the pulley
>diameter.

So modifying something using the ole backyard method causes a problem
and its a piss weak design? maybe if the aftermarket blokes did there
homework correctly it would be a problem.

>Personally I think it's a problem with the oil pump itself that's brought to
>light when the cars get a caning.

Assuming its not the underdrive pullys causing the problem of course.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Kieron" <kieronm302@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43742ba2.98837875@203.50.2.233...

> So modifying something using the ole backyard method causes a problem
> and its a piss weak design? maybe if the aftermarket blokes did there
> homework correctly it would be a problem.

What problem would it be exactly Kieron? :)

I don't know what "ole backyard" method you're talking about, but I
personally don't know too many guys that make crank pulleys in their garage.

> Assuming its not the underdrive pullys causing the problem of course.

Of course, but as I said if simply changing a pulley is enough to cause the
oil pump to shit itself (and the engine to be subsequently lost), it's a
cunt of a system.

Personally, I can't see how the pulley diameter could make much difference.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Kieron)]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:14:20 GMT, "Noddy" <dg4163@dodo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Kieron" <kieronm302@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:43742ba2.98837875@203.50.2.233...
>
>> So modifying something using the ole backyard method causes a problem
>> and its a piss weak design? maybe if the aftermarket blokes did there
>> homework correctly it would be a problem.
>
>What problem would it be exactly Kieron? :)
>
>I don't know what "ole backyard" method you're talking about, but I
>personally don't know too many guys that make crank pulleys in their garage.

Your all for doing adequate testing on shit, but have these underdrive
pully blokes done it or have they just knocked up something and
plonked it on?

>> Assuming its not the underdrive pullys causing the problem of course.
>
>Of course, but as I said if simply changing a pulley is enough to cause the
>oil pump to shit itself (and the engine to be subsequently lost), it's a
>cunt of a system.
>
>Personally, I can't see how the pulley diameter could make much difference.

you said the same about the Typhoon clutch but obviously it did. From
what was said, some sort of harmonics thrown out enough to cause
vibration, maybe if decent testing is done on these underdrive
pulley's they would have spotted the problem , maybe theres a market
for FPV to market this sort of gear, assuming they do the correct
testing of course hehe

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Kieron" <kieronm302@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4377fc87.3722468@203.50.2.233...

> Your all for doing adequate testing on shit, but have these underdrive
> pully blokes done it or have they just knocked up something and
> plonked it on?

In the grand scheme of things, there are devices that can have an adverse
effect on other components, and they need to be tested. I wouldn't expect a
crank pulley to fall into this catagory unless it physically altered the
balance of the crankshaft.

I don't know whether or not the unit in question does this, but even so it's
hard to imagine how an oil pump failure could be related either way.

> you said the same about the Typhoon clutch but obviously it did.

I don't recall commenting about the Typhoon's clutch diameter.....

> From what was said, some sort of harmonics thrown out enough to cause
> vibration

If the current Ford V8 is an externally balanced engine (and if Ford V8
history is anything to go by then it probably is), it's neccessary to have
the correct amount of counterweight fitted to the crank pulley in order to
maintain a happy medium. If this was in fact the case, I would imagine it to
be very unlikely that people would bother to tool up and make replacement
after-market pulleys with complete disregard for this importantr point.

However, one cannot assume that everyone who makes components for engines
knows what they're doing :)

If they *have* altered the crank balance by changing the pulley diameter, I
would expect the most likely fault to be a problem with the number one main
bearing, as this would be the most likely affected area. With crankshafts
made out of plasticine these days, it would not be unreasonable to expect
the crank to flex to the point of the bearing being pounded to death,
eventually causing it to spin and fucking the crank/block/engine.

I can't say with any certainty if oil pumps are failing or not, and would
have to look at an engine that has failed to tell for sure, but would add
that oil pump failure is an often mis-diagnosed problem.

--
Regards,
Noddy.