Van Nguyen - someone had to start this.....

[HoundsOfLove]

It doesn't matter the point is the drugs are illegal and these dealers are selling them and getting them to the addicts. Just to make money whereas (not trying to excuse the users) but they are "addicted" to the drug and therefore find it incredible hard to stop no matter how stupid they were in the first place, like I said if we could stop the dealers then how many less addicts would there be in the world.

[Lizard Drinkin]

Of course, we were just arguing whether drug dealers could be considered murderers, that's all. Relevant to the debate on the severity of Van Nguyen's sentence.

But on the topic, stopping supply of one drug doesn't stop risk taking behaviour. Apart from the risk of overdose, heroin has very few harmful effects upon the actual body of the junkie (the gut slows down and saliva production decreases, which is why they get bad teeth). When the supply dries up, they start injecting all sorts of horrible junk: crushed sleeping pills for example :eek: Stopping the heroin trade won't stop people being desperate or idiotic.

[ExecutoR]

Of course, we were just arguing whether drug dealers could be considered murderers, that's all. Relevant to the debate on the severity of Van Nguyen's sentence.

But on the topic, stopping supply of one drug doesn't stop risk taking behaviour. Apart from the risk of overdose, heroin has very few harmful effects upon the actual body of the junkie (the gut slows down and saliva production decreases, which is why they get bad teeth). When the supply dries up, they start injecting all sorts of horrible junk: crushed sleeping pills for example :eek: Stopping the heroin trade won't stop people being desperate or idiotic.
but it will stop MORE people getting addicted to it... which means stopping the heroin trade may not stop people being desperate and idiotic... BUT over time eradicate people using it.

[Lizard Drinkin]

but it will stop MORE people getting addicted to it... which means stopping the heroin trade may not stop people being desperate and idiotic... BUT over time eradicate people using it.So they'll use something else, presumably more damaging to their mental and physical health... methamphetamines, for example, or black market perscriptions. The point is - where there's demand, there's supply. Demand can be encouraged, but it generally doesn't need a dealer to help it along.

[ExecutoR]

So they'll use something else, presumably more damaging to their mental and physical health... methamphetamines, for example, or black market perscriptions. The point is - where there's demand, there's supply. Demand can be encouraged, but it generally doesn't need a dealer to help it along.
Of course... but you were only referring to Heroin...

Now we can never make drugs "disappear" but if we try hard enough and stop the flow drastically... it would make buying it so bloody expensive and hard to get... which will defineately decrease the amount of the more "recreational users" using it.

[BiggyRat]

So they'll use something else, presumably more damaging to their mental and physical health... methamphetamines, for example, or black market perscriptions. The point is - where there's demand, there's supply. Demand can be encouraged, but it generally doesn't need a dealer to help it along.Flood the market with heroin and any other drugs - get them out there in their millions. The street market value will become $0 and people stop selling it and/or trafficking it as there's no money in it. Basic supply and demand :pirate:

There... that'll start something :eek: :cool: :dD

[ExecutoR]

Flood the market with heroin and any other drugs - get them out there in their millions. The street market will become $0 and people stop selling it and/or trafficking it as there's no money in it. Basic supply and demand :pirate:

There... that'll start something :eek: :cool: :dD
ahahahahahah i said the complete opposite lol...

[BiggyRat]

ahahahahahah i said the complete opposite lol...PMSL! I know!

[headrippa]

*chokes* are you actually trying to equate yourself to Jesus Christ? perlease :rolleyes:

No, I don't expect to change your practices but I'll continue to call you for what you are, a morbid ghoul.



That is at least the second time you've shown blatant disrespect and if you do it again I'll not hesitate in negative repping you for your trouble as well. His name was Van Nguyen. He was a human being who had parents and friends and family that loved him. Regardless of your opinion on his crime and the punishment he received it makes me ill that you find humour in it.


Oh no not the negative rep, feel free to add to my illustrous collection of red squares sir, as I do not care.

I'm bigger than jesus btw

[custos]

Of course, we were just arguing whether drug dealers could be considered murderers, that's all. Relevant to the debate on the severity of Van Nguyen's sentence.
That's right. There is no doubt that selling drugs contributes to deaths by overdose. But equally there is no doubt that breaking other laws (speeding and drink-driving to name just two) also contributes to deaths, perhaps to an even greater degree. Following that logic one could argue that a mandatory death sentence for drink drivers is as sensible as a mandatory death sentence for drug dealers. In both cases the crime carries with it the possibility of an innocent victim. Furthermore, drug users are complicit in their own deaths by overdose of course, so drink drivers are actually worse than drug dealers in that regard.

[ExecutoR]

That's right. There is no doubt that selling drugs contributes to deaths by overdose. But equally there is no doubt that breaking other laws (speeding and drink-driving to name just two) also contributes to deaths, perhaps to an even greater degree. Following that logic one could argue that a mandatory death sentence for drink drivers is as sensible as a mandatory death sentence for drug dealers. In both cases the crime carries with it the possibility of an innocent victim. Furthermore, drug users are complicit in their own deaths by overdose of course, so drink drivers are actually worse than drug dealers in that regard.
Check your shit before you spout crap dude...

http://www.abs.gov.au is a good place to go

For example in Australia in 2000

1427 Road Deaths
1569 Drug Deaths

Now i checked to see how many of these were Alcohol related driving deaths and could not find actual Australia wide stats... but i found in WA it was 22% and NSW was around 18%

so lets work at about 20% to be generous to the rest of the country... my guess is that it wont quite be that high nation wide.

Anyway 20% of 1427 = 285.4

Out of that you want to have a guess as to how many killed were the actual drunk driver?

Drug dealers kill others... and majority of the time, drunk drivers kill themselves.

Do you ever get into your car and go "I will probably kill someone today"???

A drug dealer would.

[Lizard Drinkin]

Check your sh*t before you spout crap dude...

http://www.abs.gov.au is a good place to go

For example in Australia in 2000

1427 Road Deaths
1569 Drug Deaths

Now i checked to see how many of these were Alcohol related driving deaths and could not find actual Australia wide stats... but i found in WA it was 22% and NSW was around 18%

so lets work at about 20% to be generous to the rest of the country... my guess is that it wont quite be that high nation wide.

Anyway 20% of 1427 = 285.4

Out of that you want to have a guess as to how many killed were the actual drunk driver?

Drug dealers kill others... and majority of the time, drunk drivers kill themselves.

Do you ever get into your car and go "I will probably kill someone today"???

A drug dealer would.Oh what [language retoned for added dazzle]. Do you KNOW any drug dealers? Do you KNOW what their attitude is to selling heroin? Talk about spouting crap. Just from a capitalistic angle you can easily deduce it's not in anyone's interest to kill their customers.

I wouldn't take custos on in any war of statistics or general knowledge E. He can bury us both, dig us up and bury us again. Regardless, you could extend his example of drink drivers to any other form of illicit behaviours that imperil others' lives that do NOT (and should not) attract a sentence as extreme as capital punishment. You are honing in on his example to be pedantic without addressing the argument it supports.

You failed to illustrate that a drug dealer is directly responsible for a drug user's death, which was the whole point of the argument. The example of a drink driver, who is directly responsible for other's deaths through his own self-destructive behaviour, illustrates the hypocrisy of Singapore's sentencing provisions. A drug dealer supplies others with the possibility of self-harm, and the responsibility for that self-harm rests squarely with the drug user (unless the drug is laced with something horrible, in which case the dealer is entirely culpable). It's a huge difference.

[Diabolical]

Check your sh*t before you spout crap dude...

http://www.abs.gov.au is a good place to go

For example in Australia in 2000

1427 Road Deaths
1569 Drug Deaths

Now i checked to see how many of these were Alcohol related driving deaths and could not find actual Australia wide stats... but i found in WA it was 22% and NSW was around 18%

so lets work at about 20% to be generous to the rest of the country... my guess is that it wont quite be that high nation wide.

Anyway 20% of 1427 = 285.4

Out of that you want to have a guess as to how many killed were the actual drunk driver?

Drug dealers kill others... and majority of the time, drunk drivers kill themselves.

Do you ever get into your car and go "I will probably kill someone today"???

A drug dealer would.

Actually, it's widely acknowledged that drunk drivers are more likely to kill innocent victims than themselves. Firstly, if they run someone down they're hardly going to come off the worse and secondly, because of the amount of alcohol in their system and also the fact that some accidents are caused when they pass out behind the wheel they're more relaxed at impact and less likely to suffer major trauma. Of course I have no stats. to back this up :p, it's just something I picked up on the job.

At any rate, what does it matter how many people a drunk driver could potentially kill? the simple fact he/she might kill one person is enough argument for supporters of the death penalty for drug traffickers to pursue it for drink drivers. As custos said, victims of drink drivers are innocent with no control over their fate, people that stick junk in their veins know what they're doing to themselves so you could easily argue that a drink driver is worse.

[Liddleone]

I don't agree with the death penalty but should be punished but I don't agree with his punishment. Some people go out and kill people and they only get a few years in jail. There might be more to this story noone knows but I don't think he deserved to die for it. Everyone makes mistakes and his cost him his life.

[custos]

For example in Australia in 2000

1427 Road Deaths
1569 Drug Deaths

.....(pointless invalid numerical exercise snipped)....

Drug dealers kill others... and majority of the time, drunk drivers kill themselves.
Nice. Pluck out a few numbers, ignore the context and then wrap up a conclusion based on flawed assumptions. First of all the drug death numbers in the ABS include suicides and deaths from prescription drugs, not just illicit drugs. The ABS record the number of accidental drug-induced deaths involving opioids as 413 in 2001.

Secondly to compare the figures meaningfully (as opposed to the mathematically naive way you did), you will need to normalise against use. Results from the 2001 National Drug Strategy Household Survey indicate that an estimated 2.6 million Australians, or 16.9 % of people aged 14 years and over, had used illicit drugs in the previous 12 months. Now granted cannabis was the most prevalent drug and only about 1% of these used heroin, but that's still 26,000. So we're talking about 413 overdose deaths from 26,000 users. That brings the number pretty close to your drink-driving stats.

All that is interesting but Diabolical and Lizard drew your attention to the more pertinent point you so neatly dodged -- drink drivers kill innocent victims, drug users are complicit in their own deaths. If you support the death penalty for drug dealers on the basis of taking even one life (possibly) you should do the same for drunk drivers.

[Candy2]

At the end of the day guys we can all sit here on our computers and argue about this topic which is a very important topic but unless one of you guys can change any of these problems we have in society lots of problems that need to be addressed.We can't change laws it sucks that people die especially loved ones,it happens when it comes to crimes people have choices we are all on our computers chatting because we chose to lead a better life for ourselves,people have different situations and do things for different reasons,so l just say everyone has a opinion and everyone one is allowed to have a opinion,and shouldn't be mocked because of it.I say sorry to van ngyuens family but someone else could be a parent of a drug overdosed child and say the opposite.:)

[Lizard Drinkin]

At the end of the day guys we can all sit here on our computers and argue about this topic which is a very important topic but unless one of you guys can change any of these problems we have in society lots of problems that need to be addressed.We can't change laws it sucks that people die especially loved ones,it happens when it comes to crimes people have choices we are all on our computers chatting because we chose to lead a better life for ourselves,people have different situations and do things for different reasons,so l just say everyone has a opinion and everyone one is allowed to have a opinion,and shouldn't be mocked because of it.I say sorry to van ngyuens family but someone else could be a parent of a drug overdosed child and say the opposite.:)Isn't that kind of obvious?

There's are threads for discussing many different problems in society. This is one of them. So we're discussing it.

As has been discussed earlier in the thread, laws are a product of the societies they regulate, and change over time according to the changes to the culture and needs of the society. If we don't discuss different viewpoints with each other, attitudes will never change within our society, and thus laws will never be adjusted to accommodate this change. Just because an exchange of opinion doesn't bring immediate and palpable change doesn't mean it's pissing into the wind.

[Candy2]

[QUOTE=Lizard Drinkin]Isn't that kind of obvious?

There's are threads for discussing many different problems in society. This is one of them. So we're discussing it.


Understand that just reading peoples comments in these threads , I am not picking at anyone at all ,there is a difference between discussing and putting people down for their opinions.It is obvious in what I wrote but sometimes writing it out loud people might go on in the day saying to themselves well just got off eyo and put my opinion in l feel better and others might get off eyo and think about the thread for the rest of the day.:cool: Of course laws and society need to be discussed I never said that at all,i am in these threads to see different opinions and to have an opinion just as other people.

[Nook]

[QUOTE=Lizard Drinkin]Isn't that kind of obvious?

There's are threads for discussing many different problems in society. This is one of them. So we're discussing it.


Understand that just reading peoples comments in these threads , I am not picking at anyone at all ,there is a difference between discussing and putting people down for their opinions.It is obvious in what I wrote but sometimes writing it out loud people might go on in the day saying to themselves well just got off eyo and put my opinion in l feel better and others might get off eyo and think about the thread for the rest of the day.:cool:

But if we do that we have nothing to debate on and then take it out on our other halfs.
*runs off to yell at paddy*
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you do not like a thing that is being said do what I do don't respond!

[Lizard Drinkin]

But if we do that we have nothing to debate on and then take it out on our other halfs.
*runs off to yell at paddy*
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you do not like a thing that is being said do what I do don't respond!I hope you mean don't respond if you're just venting anger. I think you have a duty to respond if you see the flaws in someone's argument, for their sake as well as for the sake of debate.