Van Nguyen - someone had to start this.....

[dvder]

...and if in another country the punishment for a black man having (consensual) sex with a white woman was death ... sure he should die? If the penalty for merely being born Jewish was death, sure they should die? This discussion is about what should be, not about what is.

Nook, we can't stop other countries from imposing the death penalty but we can signal our distaste... just as we did with apartheid. Eventually when a country realises it is way out of step with the rest of the civilized world it may (I hope) change for the better. It won't change when there are Aussies saying "well he knew the law so he should die". That's just giving tacit approval for state sanctioned murder.

in a perfect spiritual world l would say no to the death penalty ( as man shouldn't be killed by man for reasons l couldn't be bothered getting into ), but the drug mules / pushers / flucking parisitical scum ect...( insert whatever you call them ) are bringing drugs that will kill innocent people ( as well as the ones who take it, cause there stupid, the ones who want to be in the in crowd ( l don't really give a stuff about )..but the ones that are trying to hide from horrific pasts l care about, so they're the ones that the scums could kill. so right now if they get the death penalty l don't give a fluck ...

[intangible]

No I don't find it amusing, it's pathetic that the only laughs you think you're capable of getting are over someone else's death.

So you're saying no one is capable of reform? So what is the point of goal sentences at all then? Perhaps we should just be murdering everyone who commits a crime of any sort.
Yeah exactly what I meant .. of course your right so we won't shoot you down for it...

Reform from carrying drugs into a country I don't think that is a mindset.. it's different to putting a bullet in someone..
END OF THE DAY HE BROKE THE LAW UNDER SINGARPORE LAW HE'S GOTTA GO END OF STORY... PEOPLE KICKING UP A STINK ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING.

[Diabolical]

Yeah exactly what I meant .. of course your right so we won't shoot you down for it...

Reform from carrying drugs into a country I don't think that is a mindset.. it's different to putting a bullet in someone..
END OF THE DAY HE BROKE THE LAW UNDER SINGARPORE LAW HE'S GOTTA GO END OF STORY... PEOPLE KICKING UP A STINK ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING.

If you think I'm shooting you down because I challenge your opinions then you must lead a sheltered life. If you're going to try to contribute to topical threads then you have to expect people to have differing opinions to you and want to discuss them.

Interesting that you believe someone that intentionally and knowingly takes a life is capable of reform but someone who carries drugs isn't. Why is that?

As for your final attempt of screaming an opinion at me, if you'd have read the rest of this thread you'd have seen the argument many times over that some people posting here believe that without "kicking up a stink" no atrocities would ever be changed and it is our moral obligation to do so when we find something in breach of basic human rights.

[intangible]

If you think I'm shooting you down because I challenge your opinions then you must lead a sheltered life. If you're going to try to contribute to topical threads then you have to expect people to have differing opinions to you and want to discuss them.

Interesting that you believe someone that intentionally and knowingly takes a life is capable of reform but someone who carries drugs isn't. Why is that?

As for your final attempt of screaming an opinion at me, if you'd have read the rest of this thread you'd have seen the argument many times over that some people posting here believe that without "kicking up a stink" no atrocities would ever be changed and it is our moral obligation to do so when we find something in breach of basic human rights.
don't question people or raise the point and use rubbish stuff like your implying or what have you.... you have raised your opinion a thousand times and reworded it.. be a politician you talk alot of rubbish

[Diabolical]

don't question people or raise the point and use rubbish stuff like your implying or what have you.... you have raised your opinion a thousand times and reworded it.. be a politician you talk alot of rubbish

I've been more than tolerant of you but it would appear your sole intent is to cause trouble. Like I said, contribute sensibly to the thread or scurry off to wherever it is you came from. Welcome to my ignore list.

[intangible]

Yeah big trouble maker haha ... I won't lose sleep over it 'space bag'

[byrons mate]

this thread has certainly opened my eyes up to many varied pionts.
and i agree with ideals from both camps.

i feel that people need to become responsible for their own actions and respect and understand the laws of the places that you are in or travelling through.
yes , we punish most offences less than some countries , and that is the wishes of the community that we are in , as singapore punishes as per the wishes of their community.

cultures vary and yes, hanging is possibly a neanderthal form of capital punishment , but that is their laws in their country.

i will most certainly not be caught smuggling drugs, so i guess i do not need to worry about any form of punishment for this crime.
but , it was not my son or daughter , so perhaps if it came closer to home ,
my opinions could change.

1 comment on an earlier point regarding the background of van's family,

it has nothing to do with this issue. van is van and the actions of others should have no bearing. i hope his family can cope with both the loss of a son and the massive media attention they have recieved.

thanks for the chance to post an opinion.

[luther]

...yes , we punish most offences less than some countries , and that is the wishes of the community that we are in...
I agree with most of what you have said, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. I would suggest most people would prefer that Australia has harsher sentences than they do. There is always a lot of outrage against what is perceived as 'light sentences' by our justice system, and I really don't believe our justice system represents the community at all. All polls I've seen show that Australians want harsher sentences. Yes, these polls are phone-in ones in newspapers etc., but until they do a referendum, we'll never know for sure.

On the referendum, Australians will never be given one on capital punishment, as the powers that be are actually too scared of what the result may actually be.


thanks for the chance to post an opinion.
The good thing about this place is that most peope will allow you to do just that without personal attacks for differences, but there are some here that just won't believe there's an opinion other than their own!

[byrons mate]

I agree with most of what you have said, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. I would suggest most people would prefer that Australia has harsher sentences than they do. There is always a lot of outrage against what is perceived as 'light sentences' by our justice system, and I really don't believe our justice system represents the community at all. All polls I've seen show that Australians want harsher sentences. Yes, these polls are phone-in ones in newspapers etc., but until they do a referendum, we'll never know for sure.

On the referendum, Australians will never be given one on capital punishment, as the powers that be are actually too scared of what the result may actually be.


The good thing about this place is that most peope will allow you to do just that without personal attacks for differences, but there are some here that just won't believe there's an opinion other than their own!


point taken and agree. does that mean that capital punisment in singapore is frowned apon as our system can be here?
theres a can of worms if i ever saw one.

[Diabolical]

point taken and agree. does that mean that capital punisment in singapore is frowned apon as our system can be here?
theres a can of worms if i ever saw one.

From what I've heard the vast majority of Singaporians agree with the death penalty.

I agree that Australia can be too lenient on certain crimes. Time and again you hear about the soft sentences people get for vicious crimes. I don't support the death penalty but I certainly believe in longer gaol terms for certain crimes and yes, there are some people incapable of rehabilitation and those should get life without chance of appeal or parole.

Recently in America there has been controversy over a man by the name of Stanley Tookie Williams who is due for execution over a crime he denies he committed 26 years ago. Here's an article on it for those interested :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051212/pl_nm/crime_execution_tookie_dc

What do you think? Is someone like that incapable of rehabilitation?

[headrippa]

The thing about "rehabilitation" is that they werent murderers until they murdered. Just because they are "rehabilitated" does not mean they might do it again.

Most wankers on death row say they have found god or have become rehabilitated. I'd say the same thing if it was the only way out of swingin'

[Diabolical]

The thing about "rehabilitation" is that they werent murderers until they murdered. Just because they are "rehabilitated" does not mean they might do it again.

Most wankers on death row say they have found god or have become rehabilitated. I'd say the same thing if it was the only way out of swingin'

But anyone has the potential to be a murderer. Putting someone to death on the chance they might kill could be applied to the greater population. Of course, they've proved themselves capable and so the odds are higher. For the record, I do believe there are those out there that can't be rehabilitated.

I agree with you about people being desperate and when they've run out of options will plead they've changed in the hopes it might save them from death but with Stanley Tookie Williams, he would almost certainly have been saved from the death penalty if he admitted doing the crime and showing some remorse for it but he still claims his innocence. I don't know the exact details of the case or what evidence they convicted him on but he used to be a gang member and did do some pretty bad staff back then. From those ways he claims to have been rehabilitated, not from the actual crime he's been convicted of.

[intangible]

where's a rope when you need one

[Nook]

From what I've heard the vast majority of Singaporians agree with the death penalty.

I agree that Australia can be too lenient on certain crimes. Time and again you hear about the soft sentences people get for vicious crimes. I don't support the death penalty but I certainly believe in longer gaol terms for certain crimes and yes, there are some people incapable of rehabilitation and those should get life without chance of appeal or parole.

Recently in America there has been controversy over a man by the name of Stanley Tookie Williams who is due for execution over a crime he denies he committed 26 years ago. Here's an article on it for those interested :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051212/pl_nm/crime_execution_tookie_dc

What do you think? Is someone like that incapable of rehabilitation?

I don't know if it's the same guy correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he the guy who also won a noble prize for creating a better life for children growing up in and around gangs and tried to stop what had been started by writing several books. Stern talkings to other gangs about how certain behavior (killing someone) will bring you to this hell hole?
If there is chance for someone to rehabilitate then why can't we try? It depends on the person that has killed. The circumstances on which/why the crime was committed. There can not be a way of saying 'he killed she killed' and then to only kill that person back. How does that make it right?

[custos]

I agree with that Nook. I think the penalties for committing a crime should strive for three aspects: punishment, rehabilitation and the protection of society. Punishment and rehabilitation don't easily go hand in hand but it can be done. Protection for society is necessary until (if) the offender can be rehabilitated. If they cannot be rehabilitated (and here I'm thinking of the criminally insane, serial killers, pedophiles etc.) then protection of society means locking them away forever.

In my view, the death penalty is partly about protection of society -- although it's just a convenience or cost argument to favour death over life imprisonment -- but mostly about punishment, and obviously not rehabilitation. When it comes down to it the death penalty is fundamentally about revenge, one of mankind's baser and most undignified instincts.

[dvder]

I certainly believe in longer gaol terms for certain crimes and yes, there are some people incapable of rehabilitation and those should get life without chance of appeal or parole.


the people that have no chance of rehabilitation, l don't know about wasting money to keep them locked up for life, when you could just put the plicks to sleepand and the money could be used for hospitals or especially mental health ...

[chikin buff]

I don't think that people should be put to death for smuggling drugs because it's just not going to stop the drug traffiking, or at least not without killing a whole bunch of people needlessly. There are SO many people out there taking drugs (disclaimer disclaimer:I don't take drugs, I drink booze - premium blondes, the drink of kings... rully skinny ones!) and like, whether thats a good thing or not it's the reality of the situation and in like 90% of the time the reason you don't realize there are so many is because they are living such normal, well adjusted lives. Although I'm not actually talking about heroin but still, I dunno, it's hard to defend these people but I think that compared to the problem (which is so not going away anytime soon no matter what the penalty is) people like Van losing their lives is just a waste.

By the way, does anyone know how amsterdam is going? :)

[chikin buff]

Oh yeh... and that:- :)

The Persistent, Dangerous Myth of Heroin Overdose

http://www.peele.net/lib/heroinoverdose.html

[melissak]

END OF THE DAY HE BROKE THE LAW UNDER SINGARPORE LAW HE'S GOTTA GO END OF STORY... PEOPLE KICKING UP A STINK ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING.
Actually intangible has a point. The singapore government did not back down because there was such outrage and publicity about the whole thing. The indonesion government has also said the same thing about the bali 9. Any attempts to challenge their laws will be met with defiance.

[custos]

The same defiance shown by the South African government in relation to apartheid 20 years ago?