Van Nguyen - someone had to start this.....

[HoundsOfLove]

I agree with that sentiment. But many people (not saying you, Houndsy) then draw the fallacious conclusion that people who do go to other countries should accept all the laws of that country, and so should the rest of the world. I don't agree that such a conclusion follows -- apartheid, slavery, female genital mutilation, severe corporal punishment for drinking alcohol... all of these are, or have been, "the law" in other countries. So too has execution for murder, selling drugs, and even just dissent against the government (China). That doesn't make it right or acceptable, and civilized countries should speak out against such human abuses whenever and wherever they occur.


I understand what you are saying Custos, but I think things like genital mutilation (correct me if I'm wrong I might be) aren't actually laws but traditions in certain tribes, therefore they couldn't actually subject you to it.
As for apartheid yes that is horrible and I wouldn't want to travel to a country that still had this as a law.

[princessnay]

I agree with that sentiment. But many people (not saying you, Houndsy) then draw the fallacious conclusion that people who do go to other countries should accept all the laws of that country, and so should the rest of the world. I don't agree that such a conclusion follows -- apartheid, slavery, female genital mutilation, severe corporal punishment for drinking alcohol... all of these are, or have been, "the law" in other countries. So too has execution for murder, selling drugs, and even just dissent against the government (China). That doesn't make it right or acceptable, and civilized countries should speak out against such human abuses whenever and wherever they occur.

so what you are saying is that if we dont agree with their belifs that we should not respcet their wishes when in their country? who is to say that what you believe or what i believe is the right thing? alot of people in other countries im sure think that our beliefs and values and laws are wrong! who are we to go in and tell other countries how to live, what laws to abide by and how to punnish those that dont abide by these laws? George Bush? personally i think that speaking out against other countries is wrong! how would we like it if someone came into Australia and told us how to live? if they took away our rights and our law system and put into place one similar to their own? that is what you are trying to do to them! they value their law system very highly in places such as bali and they do not apreciate people telling them how to conduct their lives!!!

i think we all need to remember that as trajic as this is there was no way that we could have stopped it! i fully belive that he was used to set and example! Bali will not tollerate people breaking their law! and i say good on them!!!

[ExecutoR]

That doesn't make it right or acceptable...

It is only not acceptable to us because WE have not grown up with those laws.

WE HAVE NO RIGHT to go to someone else's country and say "HAHAHAHAHA suck crap guys i dont have follow your laws, your laws suck and theres nothing you can do about it." Then run around doing things that are legal in our home country but not theirs.

This is what some of you are saying. We have NO RIGHT to do so, their laws are not necessarily wrong, THEY ARE JUST DIFFERENT.


I get your example but you don't seem to get why you can't use the school to represent a governmant. Schools are constrained by governmant policy that they can not change. Governmants can change there policy at a whim.

a school is a policy policing organisation not a policy generating organisation.

Firstly, school only have to adhear to the Syllabuses of the state and follow those. Everything else is self created to ensure a certain school does not get sued.

A school creates its own policies and how to carry the punishment out when the person offends. I've been to a Christian school where a student says "shit" and get a detention, whereas a public school i went to some kid called a teacher "A F#$%ing Fag" and got a warning".

If you can seriousely and honestly tell me a school is different to a mini country you are kidding yourself.

My point with the school... and i try to explain it clearer... The people within the school expect to be looked after according to school policies, if a student does not adhear to these policies they should be dealt with, if not WHAT SECURITY DO THE OTHERS HAVE/FEEL?

It is the same when comparing to a school to people in a certain country... the people in that country expect a certain amount of policing within their country but if someone is punished different JUST BECAUSE they live in another country, how does that seem fair in that countries citizens eyes?
....

[Lizard Drinkin]

I read it the first time E.

[harvs]

so what you are saying is that if we dont agree with their belifs that we should not respcet their wishes when in their country? who is to say that what you believe or what i believe is the right thing? alot of people in other countries im sure think that our beliefs and values and laws are wrong! who are we to go in and tell other countries how to live, what laws to abide by and how to punnish those that dont abide by these laws? George Bush? personally i think that speaking out against other countries is wrong! how would we like it if someone came into Australia and told us how to live? if they took away our rights and our law system and put into place one similar to their own? that is what you are trying to do to them! they value their law system very highly in places such as bali and they do not apreciate people telling them how to conduct their lives!!!


Princess, I very much doubt that custos is suggesting that we arrogantly tell other countries how to operate. He is referring to those particular 'laws' that are a clear abuse of human rights, regardless of where you're from. In particular, female genital mutilation, slavery and apartheid all relate to innocent victims. This is not a situation by which criminals are receiving punishment. I agree that abhorrent practices like these should not be accepted or tolerated. Especially not under the flimsy, politically correct breast-beating of 'each to their own'.

[princessnay]

Princess, I very much doubt that custos is suggesting that we arrogantly tell other countries how to operate. He is referring to those particular 'laws' that are a clear abuse of human rights, regardless of where you're from. In particular, female genital mutilation, slavery and apartheid all relate to innocent victims. This is not a situation by which criminals are receiving punishment. I agree that abhorrent practices like these should not be accepted or tolerated. Especially not under the flimsy, politically correct breast-beating of 'each to their own'.

in my post i was not only refering to the laws of other countries but also their beliefs and values also (including their traditions) i have ssen first hand how people from other countries feel about us interfeering with their traditions! things such as genital mutilation in Africa has been going on for at least 1,400 years.

In most FGM societies one important belief is that this procedure will reduce a women's desire for sex and in doing so will reduce the chance of sex outside the marriage. This is vital to this society as her honor for the family is depended on her not to be opened up prior to marriage.
Some view the clitoris and the labia as male parts on a female body, thus removal of these parts enhances the femininity of the girl.
It is also believed that unless a female has undergone this procedure she is unclean and will not be allowed to handle food or water.
Some groups believe that if the clitoris touches a man's penis the man will die. As well as the belief that if a baby's head touches the clitoris that the baby will die or the breast milk will be poisonous.
The belief that an unmutilated female can not conceive, therefore the female should be militated in order to become fertile.
Bad genital odors can only be eliminated by removing the clitoris and labia minora.
Prevents vaginal cancer.
An unmodified clitoris can lead to masturbation or lesbianism.
Prevents nervousness from developing in girls and women.
Prevents the face from turning yellow.
Makes a women's face more beautiful.
Older men may not be able to match their wives sex drive.
Intact clitoris will generate sexual arousal and in women if repressed can cause nervousness.
so such acts have a "reason" behind them! unless we have been properly informed as to why they do/believe such things then how can we properly make a judgement? the same goes for other beliefs, values, traditions and laws!!! untill we properly understand them how can we pass judgement???

[Diabolical]

I don't believe another country should be able to impose its laws on people who are outside there spear of influence. In that case a tourist can only be negatively affected by the government. The tourist can not benefit from the foreign government, they are just constrained by there laws.

......

As was evidenced in this thread http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=143643&highlight=law+muslims I think you'll find the majority of Australians would beg to differ. If someone comes to this country and refuses to abide by and breaks our laws then I think they should suffer the consequences of those laws, not their own countries. It is the individuals responsibility to find out the laws of their destination country and adhere to them or be tried under them. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" but if you think this means it's ok to feed the Christians to the lions then that is up to your personal moral compass.


I agree with that sentiment. But many people (not saying you, Houndsy) then draw the fallacious conclusion that people who do go to other countries should accept all the laws of that country, and so should the rest of the world. I don't agree that such a conclusion follows -- apartheid, slavery, female genital mutilation, severe corporal punishment for drinking alcohol... all of these are, or have been, "the law" in other countries. So too has execution for murder, selling drugs, and even just dissent against the government (China). That doesn't make it right or acceptable, and civilized countries should speak out against such human abuses whenever and wherever they occur.

There are certain laws and common practices within countries that should never be accepted, some of which you've mentioned. It should be the world's responsibility to ensure that such inhumane and barbaric practices aren't accepted and are petitioned against not just when one of their citizens is subject to it. That said, if you chose to travel to these countries then you have to realize that you could be subject to those laws. If you don't agree with them, then you shouldn't be travelling there and showing your acceptance by boosting their economy with your tourist dollar.

[Diabolical]

in my post i was not only refering to the laws of other countries but also their beliefs and values also (including their traditions) i have ssen first hand how people from other countries feel about us interfeering with their traditions! things such as genital mutilation in Africa has been going on for at least 1,400 years.

so such acts have a "reason" behind them! unless we have been properly informed as to why they do/believe such things then how can we properly make a judgement? the same goes for other beliefs, values, traditions and laws!!! untill we properly understand them how can we pass judgement???

These girls are held down while their genitals are hacked off, often with rusty knives. They are not given the luxury of an anaesthetic or even sterile equipment. Many die from gross post operative infections and those that survive have to endure the agony of urination, much less sex. How can you find this an acceptable practice simply because they've been doing it for centuries?

[Ozeagle]

Humanity has been slaughtering one another on religious grounds for centuries too - I don't think it makes it an acceptable practice. ;)

[princessnay]

These girls are held down while their genitals are hacked off, often with rusty knives. They are not given the luxury of an anaesthetic or even sterile equipment. Many die from gross post operative infections and those that survive have to endure the agony of urination, much less sex. How can you find this an acceptable practice simply because they've been doing it for centuries?

yes in the past they were very horrible about going through it however these days they have alot more technology and most of them are done throguh a hospital and under anaesthesia!
FGM is classed under three things:
1.Sunna Circumcision - consists of the removal of the prepuce(retractable fold of skin, or hood) and /or the tip of the clitoris. Sunna in Arabic means "tradition". 2. Clitoridectomy - consists of the removal of the entire clitoris (prepuce and glands) and the removal of the adjacent labia. 3. Infibulation(pharonic circumcision)-- consists of performing a clitoridectomy (removal of all or part of the labia minora, the labia majora). This is then stitched up allowing a small hole to remain open to allow for urine and menstrual blood to flow through.

In Africa 85% of FGM cases consist of Clitoridectomy and 15% of cases consist of Infibulation. In some cases only the hood is removed.
i am not saying that i support this or think that it is right but i am trying to say that it is what they believe and their traditions! i dont feel that we have any right to tell others how to live and what to believe and practice!

[HoundsOfLove]

As I have said I totally don't agree with genital mutilation but in the case that we are speaking of I'm sure it's not a law of the country, but a tribe tradition so going to their country in that case wouldn't affect us except for how we morally feel about it. So I don't think this subject is revelant to the topic we are speaking of. But as Diabolical has said just because it's been going on for centuries does not make it acceptable!

[princessnay]

As I have said I totally don't agree with genital mutilation but in the case that we are speaking of I'm sure it's not a law of the country, but a tribe tradition so going to their country in that case wouldn't affect us except for how we morally feel about it. So I don't think this subject is revelant to the topic we are speaking of. But as Diabolical has said just because it's been going on for centuries does not make it acceptable!

the relation to this subjest is that we cannot tell people how to live their lives, in regards to religion, law, tradition, beliefs and values!!!

[Lizard Drinkin]

If anything FGM violates the international rights of the child. I guess not every country has signed that particular resolution, but I'm sure FGM is practised in many countries that have.

Where things get morally tricky is when adults perpetrate what we consider to be atrocities upon other adults within their society (as a part of the local legal system). Aboriginal Australia throws this issue up within our own borders - a spear to the thigh solves many disputes quickly and forever. Except it often kills rather than simply injures, and then white Australian law comes into play - does the dispensation of corporal/capital punishment against a tribal criminal make the executioners criminals in the law of White Australia? Does bifurcation of the penis in some tribes constitute Male Genital Mutilation, or does the relative maturity (ie. adolescents) of the subjects negate the moral quandary?

[Diabolical]

yes in the past they were very horrible about going through it however these days they have alot more technology and most of them are done throguh a hospital and under anaesthesia!
FGM is classed under three things:
In Africa 85% of FGM cases consist of Clitoridectomy and 15% of cases consist of Infibulation. In some cases only the hood is removed.
i am not saying that i support this or think that it is right but i am trying to say that it is what they believe and their traditions! i dont feel that we have any right to tell others how to live and what to believe and practice!

I beg to differ. The majority of these girls come from tribes too poor to feed them let alone pay for them to have this procedure done humanely. I can't go into too much detail about how these procedures are done in a General thread but it is an abhorrent practice. It's called Female Genital Mutilation for a reason.

Just because people have been doing a certain practice for centuries is no reason to accept it. If this were the case we'd all still be burning innocents at the stake, sending children into coal mines, and many other things we think of as barbaric these days.

[siliegrrl]

If Australia was doing something that another country found inhumane, I would hope that another country would speak up. If the government somehow managed to cover up something from us, the citizens (some countries refuse to let the media cover some things) but the rest of the world knew about it, I would want someone to stand up and say "Hey this isn't right!" A lot of times countries aren't going to appreciate it but it's a way of keeping governments honest and fair. If a country said to us "The Baxter Detention centre is inhumane, you need to have a time limit on how long you can keep people in there" I think that is a fair comment, regardless of how I feel about the issue. They THINK we are doing something inhumane and we need to either rectify the problem or show them that it isn't inhumane.

We need to look out for the rights of citizens of the world, not just our own country when in comes to inhumane practices.



so such acts have a "reason" behind them! unless we have been properly informed as to why they do/believe such things then how can we properly make a judgement? the same goes for other beliefs, values, traditions and laws!!! untill we properly understand them how can we pass judgement???


What if the reason, in the case of apartheidis something like "I hate black people" It's a reason, just not a very good one.

[BiggyRat]

What if the reason, in the case of apartheidis something like "I hate black people" It's a reason, just not a very good one.I'm not racist - i hate everyone equally :dD :dD

[HoundsOfLove]

I'm not racist - i hate everyone equally :dD :dD

Except me you love me don't ya:( :PI

[BiggyRat]

Except me you love me don't ya:( :PIOooooohhhh baby how I love you!:eek: :pirate: :hug:

[princessnay]

Mutilation
the term mutilation is actually classed as:
an act or injury that degrades the appearance or function of the (human) body, usually without causing death. The term is usually used to describe the victims of accidents. and therefor it can include a missing limb from an acident! the term is not always found in relation to torture or the like!

[Lizard Drinkin]

the term mutilation is actually classed as: and therefor it can include a missing limb from an acident! the term is not always found in relation to torture or the like!And why is that relevant? The obvious application Diabolical was referring to was the wilful mutilation of one human being by another. In terms of being an "act", it is a crime. In terms of being a "state", it is a reality.