Price and benefit

[Ext User(thecommentator)]

HD boxes seem to be still relatively expensive compared to SD; apart
from the bleeding obvious, how much difference is there in the
technology in a HD box as opposed to SD?

For arguments sake there's a gap of $400 between a SD and HD; is the
quality in vision worth the difference?

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"thecommentator" <daveconmedia@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134016668.629622.49770@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
> HD boxes seem to be still relatively expensive compared to SD; apart
> from the bleeding obvious, how much difference is there in the
> technology in a HD box as opposed to SD?
>
> For arguments sake there's a gap of $400 between a SD and HD; is the
> quality in vision worth the difference?

SD boxes start at $80-85 (ALDI, Woolworths, Strathfield), HD start at $250
(Strathfield). That's not a $400 difference.

And if you haven't got a screen able to display 576p or better (or even a
480 line plasma), then an HD box would be kinda pointless.

[Ext User(thecommentator)]

SD boxes start at $80-85 (ALDI, Woolworths, Strathfield), HD start at
$250
(Strathfield). That's not a $400 difference.
********************

Given that some HD boxes are over $500................

[Ext User(David Z)]

Yes its worth it. HD is 5 times the resolution of SD, so you could argue
its worth 5 times the cost.

"thecommentator" <daveconmedia@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134016668.629622.49770@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
> HD boxes seem to be still relatively expensive compared to SD; apart
> from the bleeding obvious, how much difference is there in the
> technology in a HD box as opposed to SD?
>
> For arguments sake there's a gap of $400 between a SD and HD; is the
> quality in vision worth the difference?
>

[Ext User(Justin)]

"Kevin Hendrikssen" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4397bf65$0$22303$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

> HD start at $250 (Strathfield)

$199 at JB.

[Ext User(Bill Donald)]

It's not really the cost of the STB that's the issue, but that of the
HD capable TV (or projector). They can make SD look better if they have
upscaling built into them, so if you really think HD STB's are not
worth it, you can delay getting one.

However, I'd defy anyone with an HD TV to resist getting a HD STB just
to see what the fuss is about (when it's good, it's very good).




On 2005-12-08 15:37:48 +1100, "thecommentator" <daveconmedia@gmail.com> said:

> HD boxes seem to be still relatively expensive compared to SD; apart
> from the bleeding obvious, how much difference is there in the
> technology in a HD box as opposed to SD?
>
> For arguments sake there's a gap of $400 between a SD and HD; is the
> quality in vision worth the difference?

[Ext User(Dave Turner)]

What are the differences between the $200 HD boxes and the $500+ ones ?

[Ext User(HaZ)]

Usually the connections. I havent seen a $200 hd stb with dvi or vga ports.
Most only have component or s-video at best. There may be more but thats the
one thats stood out to me.

The issue with HD is that very little being broadcast at the moment is in
hd. And of the content that is, pretty much nothing is in 5.1. I was looking
in tot HD box a few weeks ago, but after looking at www.widescreentv.info I
found that its of very little benefit. Maybe its becuase we are in off
ratings season..dunno. Damn shame really.

HaZ
"Dave Turner" <not@dave> wrote in message
news:4397d2b3$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
> What are the differences between the $200 HD boxes and the $500+ ones ?
>
>
>

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"Justin" <justinnospam@nospamlogicalfusion.com.au> wrote in message
news:4397cbd5$0$17702$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> "Kevin Hendrikssen" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:4397bf65$0$22303$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>> HD start at $250 (Strathfield)
>
> $199 at JB.

even better.

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"HaZ" <haz_ng@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4397e40a_1@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com...
> Usually the connections. I havent seen a $200 hd stb with dvi or vga
> ports. Most only have component or s-video at best.

I defy you to name an HD box that only has S-Video at best, given that
S-Video cannot deliver HD.

[Ext User(Mike)]

HaZ wrote:

> The issue with HD is that very little being broadcast at the moment is in
> hd. And of the content that is, pretty much nothing is in 5.1. I was looking
> in tot HD box a few weeks ago, but after looking at www.widescreentv.info I
> found that its of very little benefit.

Its worse than it looks! Movies listed there as HD can look worse than
SD in practice, upscaled from a bad source.

HD is great in theory, but don't bother in Australia yet.

[Ext User(Krusty)]

>HD is great in theory, but don't bother in Australia yet.

Wow - finally someone that agrees with me! I'm buggered if I can really pick
any difference between SD & HD. I believe it's more about the STB or DVD but
especially about the TV. We have a Sharp Aquos LC-45G (One of the only true
HD - 1820x1080 - TVs available) & a Toshiba HDD-J35 (PVR), connection is
DVI-I to HDMI..

It isn't just me, I've challenged others to actually identify which signal
is SD & which is HD, most see no difference (unless they read the logo),
some pick the wrong ones. I think that too many people are so preocupied
with the specific technology they fail to analyze the actual products, in
other words they can't see the wood for the trees!

BTW, I'm talking about comparisons on quality signal material (Harry Potter,
Evening news, Etc.). While I'm impressed with HD I would gladly settle for
SD since the difference is almost non-existant. Many "experts" quote
statistics & figures, the acid test is real life comparison & analysis of
the differing technologies!

[Ext User(Ozdude)]

"Krusty" <news@kogarah.net> wrote in message news:43993d2e$1@news1...

> Wow - finally someone that agrees with me! I'm buggered if I can really
> pick any difference between SD & HD. I believe it's more about the STB or
> DVD but especially about the TV. We have a Sharp Aquos LC-45G (One of the
> only true HD - 1820x1080 - TVs available) & a Toshiba HDD-J35 (PVR),
> connection is DVI-I to HDMI..
>
> It isn't just me, I've challenged others to actually identify which signal
> is SD & which is HD, most see no difference (unless they read the logo),
> some pick the wrong ones. I think that too many people are so preocupied
> with the specific technology they fail to analyze the actual products, in
> other words they can't see the wood for the trees!
>
> BTW, I'm talking about comparisons on quality signal material (Harry
> Potter, Evening news, Etc.). While I'm impressed with HD I would gladly
> settle for SD since the difference is almost non-existant. Many "experts"
> quote statistics & figures, the acid test is real life comparison &
> analysis of the differing technologies!

Hi Krusty, well being in retailing in the STB/HT area, I certainly hope that
in the future I have a better reason than I have currently for someone to
buy a HD STB. That reason currently is "occasionally you get 5.1 Dolby
Digital sound".

To the average curious person, I would say that means nothing.

I do remember seeing 1080i on a DiLA projector, and I was only a couple of
feet from the screen; I could see no scan lines, but I could see the grain
in the film. I must say I was knocked out by the clarity of it. The Sharp 45
LCD, although it's native definition, leaves me a little disappointed I must
say; I believe it has far too much processing going on, and isn't a true
pixel for pixel representation, but again I'm the sort of guy who would
alter a room acoustic rather than put tone controls in an audio signal path
;)

Any way I hope your enjoying your screen, it's a very nice (and expensive)
unit. I believe Panasonic are releasing two new native def. LCD Viera's in
the near future. The Toshiba DLP's are native and with SED on the nearer
horizon, I think we are about to come into the area where I believe displays
should always have been, 1:1 1920 X 1080 displays.

Oz.

[Ext User(Krusty)]

"Ozdude" <ivsmith11@hote-mail.com> wrote in message
news:439a0bfe$0$9289$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>
> "Krusty" <news@kogarah.net> wrote in message news:43993d2e$1@news1...
>
>> Wow - finally someone that agrees with me! I'm buggered if I can really
>> pick any difference between SD & HD. I believe it's more about the STB or
>> DVD but especially about the TV. We have a Sharp Aquos LC-45G (One of the
>> only true HD - 1820x1080 - TVs available) & a Toshiba HDD-J35 (PVR),
>> connection is DVI-I to HDMI..
>>
>> It isn't just me, I've challenged others to actually identify which
>> signal is SD & which is HD, most see no difference (unless they read the
>> logo), some pick the wrong ones. I think that too many people are so
>> preocupied with the specific technology they fail to analyze the actual
>> products, in other words they can't see the wood for the trees!
>>
>> BTW, I'm talking about comparisons on quality signal material (Harry
>> Potter, Evening news, Etc.). While I'm impressed with HD I would gladly
>> settle for SD since the difference is almost non-existant. Many "experts"
>> quote statistics & figures, the acid test is real life comparison &
>> analysis of the differing technologies!
>
> Hi Krusty, well being in retailing in the STB/HT area, I certainly hope
> that in the future I have a better reason than I have currently for
> someone to buy a HD STB. That reason currently is "occasionally you get
> 5.1 Dolby Digital sound".
>
> To the average curious person, I would say that means nothing.
>
> I do remember seeing 1080i on a DiLA projector, and I was only a couple of
> feet from the screen; I could see no scan lines, but I could see the grain
> in the film. I must say I was knocked out by the clarity of it. The Sharp
> 45 LCD, although it's native definition, leaves me a little disappointed I
> must say; I believe it has far too much processing going on, and isn't a
> true pixel for pixel representation, but again I'm the sort of guy who
> would alter a room acoustic rather than put tone controls in an audio
> signal path ;)
>
> Any way I hope your enjoying your screen, it's a very nice (and expensive)
> unit. I believe Panasonic are releasing two new native def. LCD Viera's in
> the near future. The Toshiba DLP's are native and with SED on the nearer
> horizon, I think we are about to come into the area where I believe
> displays should always have been, 1:1 1920 X 1080 displays.
>
> Oz.

Hey thanks Ozdude, you obviously are in a position to know your stuff & I
can tell that you really do! I thought for some time that I was missing
something having read so much crap about how fantastic & how much better HD
is! BTW sorry about the typos (above). I meant of course PVR not DVD (DVD
signal is pretty poor) & meant of course 1920 (not 1820)!!!
I suspect than many of the pundits of HD either have pretty basic equipment
or have never actually compared the differences. You've reassured me that
dementia hasn't actually started - yet! BTW are you aware of any
forthcoming twin tuner PVRs (other than the Topfield or LG)? Both
manufacturers are still holding off so it seems & who can blame them
considering the debacle with the Toshiba (HDD-J35) - what a lemon! I suspect
technology has actually bypassed reality!

[Ext User(Ozdude)]

"Krusty" <news@kogarah.net> wrote in message news:439a655e$1@news1...
> dementia hasn't actually started - yet! BTW are you aware of any
> forthcoming twin tuner PVRs (other than the Topfield or LG)? Both
> manufacturers are still holding off so it seems & who can blame them
> considering the debacle with the Toshiba (HDD-J35) - what a lemon! I
> suspect technology has actually bypassed reality!

We had a visit from the Castel Electronics sales "person" the other night
after work and he had with him a Toshiba HDD-J35; he recorded some Nein HD,
then proceeded to show us it recording 2 X HD channels whilst manipulating
and deleting the previous recorded stream, which I must say is impressive,
given my Strong 5390 SD box won't let me do that.

He also told us all twice that of the 5000 or so J35's out there, only 2000
had "problems" and have had their firmware updated. He was also saying that
3000 were still out there with the original firmware in them - this I am
dubious about for the simple reason, that people who buy such PVR's are
quite able to use null-modem cables and update firmware themselves. In fact,
I think it's more that 2000 have been sent back by people who have no idea
how to use a null-modem cable ;)

The unit he was demoing didn't demonstrate any of the problems (running the
latest firmware) I have read about, nor did it do anything strange whilst it
was going. We had it paired off against a DSE DTR-8000 HD tuner box which
was DVI connected though, and I think (and know) it's picture was quite
superior over DVI-I vs. the Toshiba Component, even on the 50" Plasma he
chose to show it all on (not 1:1 native).

I am neutral about the J35 to be honest. The ones I've seen have been
working flawlessly, and I believe most problems are with country users
(funny signals coming out of Prime and WIN HD apparently), and the latest
firmware addresses these problems. It's comforting to know actually that the
Castel guys liase with the providers and pass it on to Toshiba, who do the
updates.

The only other HD box I know of, on the near horizon, is the Strong 5490.
You already know about the other two.

Personally, having witnessed many H.264 comparisons, and even encoded some
myself on the computer, I am puzzled why the HD PVR vendors aren't
considering this form of compression as the internal encoding for the PVR's.
It will give the same or superior quality HD video in 1/3 of the space, and
that makes sense to me - instead of recording a dual *.ts or *.mpg2 stream
at say, 19-40MB/sec, why not put to HDD at 6-12MB/sec. If an Apple Video
iPod can manage H.264 play back, then I don't see it as a far stretch to
incorporate 80MIPS or more processors in STB's so they compress and replay
H.264. QT7.X on Mac and PC plays H.264, and it is one of the encoders for
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, so why not?

Who knows, at those data rates you could have quad-tuner HD recordings and
still not lose any image quality?

Any way we can dream I guess. Strong is the only one I know of that is
serious and even that is "delayed" for development.

Oz
>
>

[Ext User(Krusty)]

> We had a visit from the Castel Electronics sales "person" the other night
> after work and he had with him a Toshiba HDD-J35; he recorded some Nein
> HD, then proceeded to show us it recording 2 X HD channels whilst
> manipulating and deleting the previous recorded stream, which I must say
> is impressive, given my Strong 5390 SD box won't let me do that.

Thanks again Ozdude! Your insight into the J35 is excellent. Could I ask if
you would mind if I used your information on the DBA forum as it would be of
great interest I'm sure (if you'd rather not that's fine)? The two links
below are specifically about the Toshiba & mainly about these issues.

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=19591&hl=hddj35 (33 pages)

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=23871&st=280 (15 pages)

The unit we have is generally okay but then has periods of lock ups (total
freezes) with a power off the only fix. It can happen three times in one day
then go five days with no problems. It's the uncertainty that makes it so
annoying.
There are manu theories on the causes but none seem to have a fix. I'm
sceptical about firmware & tend to believe it's hardware. Because it has
happened just minutes after switch on I don't believe it is related to heat.
Thanks again Ozdude, I'm glad to hear that Castel is actually involved in a
resolution, many owners think otherwise! Thanks also for your fantastic
feedback!!! I believe that technology has actually been put to the test with
these devices & some issues are inevitable, it's odd that many have no
problems. I do think that Castel's theory about dodgy signal strength is
probably part of the cause (but the consumer has limited control over this)!

[Ext User(Trevor Daley)]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:31:56 +1100, "Krusty" wrote:

> The unit we have is generally okay but then has periods of lock ups
> (total freezes) with a power off the only fix. It can happen three
> times in one day then go five days with no problems. It's the
> uncertainty that makes it so annoying.

Hi Guys, this is a known issue (happened all the time with mine).

> There are manu theories on the causes but none seem to have a fix. I'm
> sceptical about firmware & tend to believe it's hardware. Because it has
> happened just minutes after switch on I don't believe it is related to
> heat. Thanks again Ozdude, I'm glad to hear that Castel is actually
> involved in a resolution, many owners think otherwise! Thanks also for
> your fantastic feedback!!! I believe that technology has actually been
> put to the test with these devices & some issues are inevitable, it's
> odd that many have no problems. I do think that Castel's theory about
> dodgy signal strength is probably part of the cause (but the consumer
> has limited control over this)!

Ok, now for the good news....

There is a new hardware and software upgrade available from Castel in
Melbourne (unfortunatly, ONLY availble by them).

This upgrade (which I had done), cures the freezing problem and also changes
the text colour from white to black (much easier to read now). Also, (I
don't know if this is a problem that others had) the program info now shows
up, including the extended info.

Hope this is of some help. Personnaly I love my HDD-J35, on my Sony HD CRT
it is the best picture I have seen.

Ciao, Trev Daley.

--
AmigaOneXE G4/800Mhz * 512Mb Ram * Radeon 9200SE * AOS4.0 up3
Trevor Daley E-Mail:- tldaley@iinet.net.au
South Australia
Message written using *NewsCoaster*
Live long and prosper

[Ext User(Ozdude)]

"Krusty" <news@kogarah.net> wrote in message news:439b575c@news1...
>> We had a visit from the Castel Electronics sales "person" the other night
>> after work and he had with him a Toshiba HDD-J35; he recorded some Nein
>> HD, then proceeded to show us it recording 2 X HD channels whilst
>> manipulating and deleting the previous recorded stream, which I must say
>> is impressive, given my Strong 5390 SD box won't let me do that.
>
> Thanks again Ozdude! Your insight into the J35 is excellent. Could I ask
> if you would mind if I used your information on the DBA forum as it would
> be of great interest I'm sure (if you'd rather not that's fine)? The two
> links below are specifically about the Toshiba & mainly about these
> issues.
>
> http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=19591&hl=hddj35 (33 pages)
>
> http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=23871&st=280 (15 pages)
Hi again,

I'd rather you didn't to be honest. I have not had clearance from Castel,
but that's the only reason.
>
> The unit we have is generally okay but then has periods of lock ups (total
> freezes) with a power off the only fix. It can happen three times in one
> day then go five days with no problems. It's the uncertainty that makes it
> so annoying.

Don't worry - I think all PVR's, at some stage, do a lock-up now and again.
My SD Strong has done it a couple of times, completely destroying a nights
timer recordings. I fixed it myself (I think) by replacing two capicitors
which are known to be a problem in some 5390's. I did notice it the other
night not going into stand-by after a timer event, and it's done this a
couple of times too. I'm sure all PVR's at some stage do something which
requires a hard reset, and I take it as "coming with the territory". I
suspect the hard drives in them to be honest. My 1st Gen. Thomson completely
locks up every now and again and it doesn't have a hard drive. This is one
thing I like about the DSE DTR-8000 box - a power switch on the top back of
the unit - it's just a shame it can't record anything.

I do own a Compro Videomate T300 card, but this is the only semi-reliable
way I know of to record HD DVB. My card will have to wait though until I
make final decision about to MediaPC (HTPC), or not. I am still undecided
and have reservations about a computer doing it all in my HT situation.
There are many practical advatages to a HTPC arrangement, but there are
nagging disadvantages - like apart from the Compro Videomate not liking
anything less than a P4 for HD, I see it as almost sensless seeing my PIII
does everthing else with relative ease, and I have invested in lots of boxes
in the lounge room. I don't even mind having 7 remotes ;) Then there are the
impending requirements of Windows Vista Media Centre.

> There are manu theories on the causes but none seem to have a fix. I'm
> sceptical about firmware & tend to believe it's hardware.

Possibly. I honestly don't have enough personal experience with the unit to
say yay or nay about this aspect. I think what we all really need is take
the HDD out of a PVR and change over to solid state storage. Until cheap
500GB memory chips become reality, I am guessing this isn't going to happen
any time soon ;) You can't beat the cost per MB of a HDD, not yet any way ;)

Oz

[Ext User(Krusty)]

>Ok, now for the good news....

>There is a new hardware and software upgrade available from Castel in
>Melbourne (unfortunatly, ONLY availble by them).

>This upgrade (which I had done), cures the freezing problem and also
>changes
>the text colour from white to black (much easier to read now). Also, (I
>don't know if this is a problem that others had) the program info now shows
>up, including the extended info.

>Hope this is of some help. Personnaly I love my HDD-J35, on my Sony HD CRT
>it is the best picture I have seen.

>Ciao, Trev Daley.

Hi Trev,

Our PVR came with firmware V71 which was the version where the text colour
changed! I read the DBA forum & have sadly seen some owners reporting they
still have lockups under V71 too (as we do). There was a V72 almost straight
away replaced by V73 which only seems to address the daylight saving time
issues. I'm not sure whether it's actually available yet!

I still have an open mind on the actual causes & as Ozdude explained the
technology unfortunately is likely to suffer problems, it isn't related to
just Toshiba. The other makers are yet to release their (much overdue)
models. Thanks for the advive & I agree about the HDD-J35, when it's working
it's a great device!

[Ext User(Krusty)]

>Hi again,

>I'd rather you didn't to be honest. I have not had clearance from Castel,
>but that's the only reason.

Sure not a problem!

>Don't worry - I think all PVR's, at some stage, do a lock-up now and again.
>My SD Strong has done it a couple of times, completely destroying a nights
>timer recordings. I fixed it myself (I think) by replacing two capicitors
>which are known to be a problem in some 5390's. I did notice it the other
>night not going into stand-by after a timer event, and it's done this a
>couple of times too. I'm sure all PVR's at some stage do something which
>requires a hard reset, and I take it as "coming with the territory". I
>suspect the hard drives in them to be honest. My 1st Gen. Thomson
>completely locks up every now and again and it doesn't have a hard drive.
>This is one thing I like about the DSE DTR-8000 box - a power switch on the
>top back of the unit - it's just a shame it can't record anything.

Supports the theory that Toshiba aren't really alone! Not cumforting but
true I'm sure!

>I do own a Compro Videomate T300 card, but this is the only semi-reliable
>way I know of to record HD DVB. My card will have to wait though until I
>make final decision about to MediaPC (HTPC), or not. I am still undecided
>and have reservations about a computer doing it all in my HT situation.
>There are many practical advatages to a HTPC arrangement, but there are
>nagging disadvantages - like apart from the Compro Videomate not liking
>anything less than a P4 for HD, I see it as almost sensless seeing my PIII
>does everthing else with relative ease, and I have invested in lots of
>boxes in the lounge room. I don't even mind having 7 remotes ;) Then there
>are the impending requirements of Windows Vista Media Centre.

Previously I thought about trying a PCI HD tuner but having experienced the
trauma of converting AVIs to DVDs I steered away from that thinking that it
would involve countless hours (or days) converting the recorded material to
DVDs for playback, it all seemed too hard! Maybe one day? I have to admit it
isn't a thing that I know a lot about.

>> There are many theories on the causes but none seem to have a fix. I'm
>> sceptical about firmware & tend to believe it's hardware.

Possibly. I honestly don't have enough personal experience with the unit to
say yay or nay about this aspect. I think what we all really need is take
the HDD out of a PVR and change over to solid state storage. Until cheap
500GB memory chips become reality, I am guessing this isn't going to happen
any time soon ;) You can't beat the cost per MB of a HDD, not yet any way ;)

Yeah 500GB chips I suspect are many years or decades away, well affordable
ones that is! Some users have replaced the drives in their Toshiba's but
that's a sure way to void any warranty as I see it. I suspect the machine's
drives are pretty low end (SATA) drives so it could be worth considering
once the warranty has ended!

Initially we had the re-boot issues (that many Toshiba owners have) but
since the signal on channel 10 (Sydney) improved dramatically around two
months back this totally stopped. This would support the Castel statement
that dodgy signal is the cause of many problems!

Thanks again for the fantastic insight, it has been most interesting!