Advice for recording Rage in digital

[Ext User(Chock)]

I've recently bought a digital TV tuner card for my media server PC.
Everything works great. It is a DNTV Live Pro.

I would like to record Rage so I can capture music videos and edit them into
indvidual clips at a specific frame. I have done some test recording and it
works pretty well, but I would like some clarification/advice from others
who do the same type of thing.

I can record into mpeg, dvr-ms, or the full transport stream. I have
currently been recording ABC's SD channel (as their HD channel finishes at
about 11pm so they don't broadcast Rage with it). When I record with either
mpeg or dvr-ms, and play back the file, there is a "motion blur" effect that
occurs - say for instance a car is driving along, then it is not "crisply"
defined, and when I pause the clip, there can be seen a kind of overlap
between what should (I presume) be 2 distinct frames. Is this because ABC's
SD transmission is interlaced? Is there any way around this (perhaps using
the full transport stream)? I have noticed that when I record either Seven's
"HD" or ABC's "HD" (progressive) there is no motion blur and the file sizes
are a bit larger.

Also, ABC TV Sydney's SD transmission is reported as "Dolby Digital Audio",
while ABC TV transmission is reported as "MPEG 2 Stereo Audio". What, if
any, is the difference between them? (There doesn't seem to be any file size
difference when recording a 1 minute clip from both transmissions) Does the
DD channel play 5.1 when a music clip has that? If so, which recording
format (mpeg, dvr-ms, ts) will capture the full sound mix?

Lastly, what is everyone's software preference for recording, and why? I
have MCE but am using the supplied software for the card at the moment -
DNTV Live!

TIA

- Chock

[Ext User(David Wilson)]

Chock wrote:
> When I record with either
> mpeg or dvr-ms, and play back the file, there is a "motion blur" effect that
> occurs - say for instance a car is driving along, then it is not "crisply"
> defined, and when I pause the clip, there can be seen a kind of overlap
> between what should (I presume) be 2 distinct frames. Is this because ABC's
> SD transmission is interlaced?

All SD transmissions are interlaced (just like analog PAL).

> Also, ABC TV Sydney's SD transmission is reported as "Dolby Digital Audio",
> while ABC TV transmission is reported as "MPEG 2 Stereo Audio". What, if
> any, is the difference between them?

ABC transmits both DD 2.0 and MPEG 2.0 audio streams on LCN2. LCN22
just has the MPEG stream. Different compression methods. Use which ever
you prefer.

> (There doesn't seem to be any file size
> difference when recording a 1 minute clip from both transmissions) Does the
> DD channel play 5.1 when a music clip has that? If so, which recording
> format (mpeg, dvr-ms, ts) will capture the full sound mix?

ABC has transmitted about 4 programs in DD5.1 thus far (Oils on the
Water was one, the recent HMS Pinafore was another I believe). I do not
think you will ever see 5.1 sound on Rage clips.

[Ext User(Mike)]

Chock wrote:
> I've recently bought a digital TV tuner card for my media server PC.
> Everything works great. It is a DNTV Live Pro.
>
> I would like to record Rage so I can capture music videos and edit them into
> indvidual clips at a specific frame. I have done some test recording and it
> works pretty well, but I would like some clarification/advice from others
> who do the same type of thing.
>
> I can record into mpeg, dvr-ms, or the full transport stream. I have

WTF does 'mpeg' mean? That group has published a zillion standards.
The best way is to save as an MPEG "program stream", which is what DVDs
use. A 'PS' has just one video and one audio stream, without the extra
error correction needed for broadcast.

> defined, and when I pause the clip, there can be seen a kind of overlap
> between what should (I presume) be 2 distinct frames. Is this because ABC's
> SD transmission is interlaced?

Yep, interlaced. You need to de-interlace when either viewing the
recoroding, or converting the format.

Is there any way around this (perhaps using
> the full transport stream)? I have noticed that when I record either Seven's
> "HD" or ABC's "HD" (progressive) there is no motion blur and the file sizes
> are a bit larger.

Any idea what format you are recording in? Maybe your software is
re-encoding without de-interlacing? makes no sense though.

Is there a forum for your recording software? Ask there. And please post
here anything you find.

> have MCE but am using the supplied software for the card at the moment -
> DNTV Live!

[Ext User(BBT)]

Mike <mike.n@nospam-westnet.com.au> wrote in
news:43b6098d@quokka.wn.com.au:

> Is there a forum for your recording software? Ask there. And please post
> here anything you find.
>

And here I was thinking you were offering advice (albeit wrong) because you
knew what you were talking about.

[Ext User(BBT)]

"Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in
news:43b5b626$0$4174$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:

> I can record into mpeg, dvr-ms, or the full transport stream. I have
> currently been recording ABC's SD channel (as their HD channel
> finishes at about 11pm so they don't broadcast Rage with it). >
>

I record to Transport Stream. I then Demux the Full Stream with Project X.
Available here
http://www.oozoon.de/main_en.html

Project X will Seperate the streams into any or all combinations of MPG
Video, MPG Audio or AC3 Audio. After Demuxing with Project X you can use
your favorite DVD Authoring program to Convert to DVD.

For converting to DVD I use TMPG DVD Author 1.6 (Pegasus Inc.) with the AC3
plugin.

Works great on Rage, complete with AC3 2.0 stereo sound. Just finished
putting the 2005 ARIA Top 50 on 2x DVDs with perfect results using this
combination..... ;)

[Ext User(Obake)]

In article <43b643df$0$19018$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, BBT <none@none.no> wrote:
>I record to Transport Stream. I then Demux the Full Stream with Project X.
>Available here
>http://www.oozoon.de/main_en.html
>
>Project X will Seperate the streams into any or all combinations of MPG
>Video, MPG Audio or AC3 Audio. After Demuxing with Project X you can use
>your favorite DVD Authoring program to Convert to DVD.
>
>For converting to DVD I use TMPG DVD Author 1.6 (Pegasus Inc.) with the AC3
>plugin.
>
>Works great on Rage, complete with AC3 2.0 stereo sound. Just finished
>putting the 2005 ARIA Top 50 on 2x DVDs with perfect results using this
>combination..... ;)

you're going to way too much processing. here's what i do with rage:

1. Capture the ABC SD (or any SD ch) using webscheduler to .ts
2. Crop and save the clips using mpeg-vcr

thats it. mpeg-vcr is very fast and simple. no mux/de-mux or re-encoding is
done or needed. good DVD authour programs will accept the mpeg2 files and
will de-mux where needed.

[Ext User(Anthony Horan)]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:35:08 +1100, Chock wrote:

> Does the DD channel play 5.1 when a music clip has that?

Music clips supplied by record labels are always in stereo (aside from a
few, even today, that are mastered in MONO!)

The only place you'll find music clips with 5.1 surround sound are on some
DVDs and DVD-Audio discs. Even then, beware the dreaded "fake 5.1" beloved
of record labels (for example, the current New Order DVD best-of - the
so-called "5.1 surround mix" is actually a reprocessed stereo (and in some
cases mono) track that sounds absolutely DREADFUL. I can't imagine what
they were thinking, and I can't believe the finished disc passed QC.

[Ext User(DJ!)]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:35:08 +1100, "Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote:

>I've recently bought a digital TV tuner card for my media server PC.
>Everything works great. It is a DNTV Live Pro.
>
>I would like to record Rage so I can capture music videos and edit them into
>indvidual clips at a specific frame. I have done some test recording and it
>works pretty well, but I would like some clarification/advice from others
>who do the same type of thing.

<SNIP>

Interesting timing of your post. I've just finished working my way
through this problem myself (FusionHDTV card). I've never spent much
time converting between video formats and it seems like digital TV
captures are inherently messy (demuxing, transport streams, ratios
etc) anyway.

I found that for digital tv to DVD (or clips) google ends up being
more of a hinderance than a help. You'll find page after page of "If
you have card brand g then use a to prepare b then convert to c using
z but only if c was set at y with audio prepared in v...." (etc etc)

This is what worked for me to get all of my Rage clips off the HDD.
Again - this is with a FusionHDTV card:

1. Record your program using the "Digital Capture Native MPEG" setting

2. Load your massive MPEG file into Video ReDo Plus
(http://www.videoredo.com). This would have to be the simplest and
most user-intuitive video editing apps I've ever used. Drag the
timeline slider around - select start/end points for each clip (tweak
by frame if desired)- save the clips as DVD-ready MPEGs (also playback
fine on PC through WMP).

3. Use Nero 7 Ultra Edition to author the DVD. Just drag in your clips
(at full resolution/bitrate I can get ~25-30 music videos to a 4.7GB
DVD-R), whip up a basic menu structure (dead easy!) and burn.

Hope this helps. If you tweak this - or find an even easier way -
please share! :-)

DJ! - OzDJ
OzDJ@clubduh.com
http://phlog.net/user/OzDJ

[Ext User(Chock)]

"Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:43b5b626$0$4174$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> I've recently bought a digital TV tuner card for my media server PC.
> Everything works great. It is a DNTV Live Pro.

<snip>

Thanks for your answers and tips - I'm going to try them and go with one
that produces the best results and hopefully is least time-consuming, as I
intend to capture selected music clips both both Friday and Saturday night
Rages every week.

A point of clarification - I don't intend to make DVDs out of them (although
I may make compilations for friends or some other reason). I just want a
library of music clips that will be played through my media server PC and
watched on the lounge room TV.

An additional question - since a lot of music videos are in 4:3 ratio, and
my tuner card captures the Rage broadcast in widescreen, is there an easy
(and accurate) way to convert a clip to 4:3? At the moment when I watch an
older clip on my 4:3 TV or computer monitor, because it is actually recorded
as widescreen, there are black bars at the side meaning that the clip is a
lot smaller than it could otherwise be. Also this should make the file sizes
a little smaller too.

- Chock

[Ext User(Netmask)]

You might have some success with either NanDub or VirtualDub, both have a
plug-in called autocrop that takes care of black bars on digital
transmissions. It's the same plug-in that AutoGk uses. I assume you are
talking about 4:3 program matter transmitted in the Australian digital
standard of pillar boxing in a 16:9 format.


"Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:43b75492$0$2293$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> "Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:43b5b626$0$4174$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> I've recently bought a digital TV tuner card for my media server PC.
>> Everything works great. It is a DNTV Live Pro.
>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for your answers and tips - I'm going to try them and go with one
> that produces the best results and hopefully is least time-consuming, as I
> intend to capture selected music clips both both Friday and Saturday night
> Rages every week.
>
> A point of clarification - I don't intend to make DVDs out of them
> (although I may make compilations for friends or some other reason). I
> just want a library of music clips that will be played through my media
> server PC and watched on the lounge room TV.
>
> An additional question - since a lot of music videos are in 4:3 ratio, and
> my tuner card captures the Rage broadcast in widescreen, is there an easy
> (and accurate) way to convert a clip to 4:3? At the moment when I watch an
> older clip on my 4:3 TV or computer monitor, because it is actually
> recorded as widescreen, there are black bars at the side meaning that the
> clip is a lot smaller than it could otherwise be. Also this should make
> the file sizes a little smaller too.
>
> - Chock
>

[Ext User(indiie)]

"Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:43b75492$0$2293$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...


> An additional question - since a lot of music videos are in 4:3 ratio, and
> my tuner card captures the Rage broadcast in widescreen, is there an easy
> (and accurate) way to convert a clip to 4:3?

I've looked into this myself and the short answer is no. It is possible, but
from what I've seen the methods are not easy nor accurate.

I have a FusionHDTV tuner card and record the transport streams (.ts file).
Then use HDTV2MPEG (http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=HDTVtoMPEG2) to edit
and convert to MPEG2 format easily. My DVD player plays MPEG format so these
can easily be burnt and watched.

[Ext User(Netmask)]

Well a fairly automated way albeit some loss of quality is to do the
following - it's only a last measure workaround note.

Convert the file to a 2 gig DivX file using AutoGK. This will fixed the
black bars problem absolutely. The convert back the DivX file to a DVD using
a variety of programs like VSO DivXTo DVD etc..


"indiie" <party@yourplace> wrote in message
news:43bbbd86$0$18199$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>
> "Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:43b75492$0$2293$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>
>> An additional question - since a lot of music videos are in 4:3 ratio,
>> and my tuner card captures the Rage broadcast in widescreen, is there an
>> easy (and accurate) way to convert a clip to 4:3?
>
> I've looked into this myself and the short answer is no. It is possible,
> but from what I've seen the methods are not easy nor accurate.
>
> I have a FusionHDTV tuner card and record the transport streams (.ts
> file). Then use HDTV2MPEG
> (http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=HDTVtoMPEG2) to edit and convert to
> MPEG2 format easily. My DVD player plays MPEG format so these can easily
> be burnt and watched.
>

[Ext User(Chock)]

"Netmask" <netmask56NOFLEAS@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:e7Xuf.170064$V7.7173@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Well a fairly automated way albeit some loss of quality is to do the
> following - it's only a last measure workaround note.
>
> Convert the file to a 2 gig DivX file using AutoGK. This will fixed the
> black bars problem absolutely. The convert back the DivX file to a DVD
> using a variety of programs like VSO DivXTo DVD etc..
>
>

I'd rather not lose any picture quality by transcoding to another format.
Removing the pillarboxing is more a matter of convenience for playing on a
4:3 TV and disk-space saving than a requirement. Thanks

- Chock

[Ext User(Chock)]

"Netmask" <netmask56NOFLEAS@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:LCKuf.169715$V7.77982@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> You might have some success with either NanDub or VirtualDub, both have a
> plug-in called autocrop that takes care of black bars on digital
> transmissions. It's the same plug-in that AutoGk uses. I assume you are
> talking about 4:3 program matter transmitted in the Australian digital
> standard of pillar boxing in a 16:9 format.
>

Yep removing the pillarboxing bars added to a 4:3 clip for widescreen
transmission.

Thanks, I'll have to check it all out.

- Chock

[Ext User(Chock)]

"indiie" <party@yourplace> wrote in message
news:43bbbd86$0$18199$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>
> "Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:43b75492$0$2293$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>
>> An additional question - since a lot of music videos are in 4:3 ratio,
>> and my tuner card captures the Rage broadcast in widescreen, is there an
>> easy (and accurate) way to convert a clip to 4:3?
>
> I've looked into this myself and the short answer is no. It is possible,
> but from what I've seen the methods are not easy nor accurate.
>
> I have a FusionHDTV tuner card and record the transport streams (.ts
> file). Then use HDTV2MPEG
> (http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=HDTVtoMPEG2) to edit and convert to
> MPEG2 format easily. My DVD player plays MPEG format so these can easily
> be burnt and watched.
>

What advantage is there in recording the TS and then converting to MPEG? Why
not just record in MPEG to begin with?

- Chock

[Ext User(Chock)]

"Anthony Horan" <anthonyhoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1odh11acgyy4p.11l2ehu19n7fq.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:35:08 +1100, Chock wrote:
>
>> Does the DD channel play 5.1 when a music clip has that?
>
> Music clips supplied by record labels are always in stereo (aside from a
> few, even today, that are mastered in MONO!)
>

Thanks, that saves a lot of trouble for me :-)

> The only place you'll find music clips with 5.1 surround sound are on some
> DVDs and DVD-Audio discs. Even then, beware the dreaded "fake 5.1" beloved
> of record labels (for example, the current New Order DVD best-of - the
> so-called "5.1 surround mix" is actually a reprocessed stereo (and in some
> cases mono) track that sounds absolutely DREADFUL. I can't imagine what
> they were thinking, and I can't believe the finished disc passed QC.

- Chock

[Ext User(Netmask)]

Chock - try it out with AutoGK by using the max file size of 2 gig - I
think you will be surprised just how good it looks.

If you can manage VirtualDub or NanDub plus the autocrop plugin you use a
stream copy option that doesn't re-encode. Just bye the bye I compressed the
whole of Clockwork orange to 2 gig with original AC3 sound on DivX, I had
room for 2001 as well!! The quality was excellent.


"Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:43be0ae2$0$15806$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> "Netmask" <netmask56NOFLEAS@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:e7Xuf.170064$V7.7173@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Well a fairly automated way albeit some loss of quality is to do the
>> following - it's only a last measure workaround note.
>>
>> Convert the file to a 2 gig DivX file using AutoGK. This will fixed the
>> black bars problem absolutely. The convert back the DivX file to a DVD
>> using a variety of programs like VSO DivXTo DVD etc..
>>
>>
>
> I'd rather not lose any picture quality by transcoding to another format.
> Removing the pillarboxing is more a matter of convenience for playing on a
> 4:3 TV and disk-space saving than a requirement. Thanks
>
> - Chock
>

[Ext User(indiie)]

"Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:43be0b8c$0$15778$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> "indiie" <party@yourplace> wrote in message
> news:43bbbd86$0$18199$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>>
>> "Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
>> news:43b75492$0$2293$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>>
>>
>>> An additional question - since a lot of music videos are in 4:3 ratio,
>>> and my tuner card captures the Rage broadcast in widescreen, is there an
>>> easy (and accurate) way to convert a clip to 4:3?
>>
>> I've looked into this myself and the short answer is no. It is possible,
>> but from what I've seen the methods are not easy nor accurate.
>>
>> I have a FusionHDTV tuner card and record the transport streams (.ts
>> file). Then use HDTV2MPEG
>> (http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=HDTVtoMPEG2) to edit and convert to
>> MPEG2 format easily. My DVD player plays MPEG format so these can easily
>> be burnt and watched.
>>
>
> What advantage is there in recording the TS and then converting to MPEG?
> Why not just record in MPEG to begin with?
>
> - Chock

None! I'd previously had problems recording straight to MPEG but now it
works, thanks! ha

[Ext User(Chock)]

"DJ!" <OzDJ@clubduh.com> wrote in message
news:kv0er1hmb8u88h7ek79qighqkjomkjluq8@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:35:08 +1100, "Chock" <no@spam.com> wrote:
>
> >I've recently bought a digital TV tuner card for my media server PC.
> >Everything works great. It is a DNTV Live Pro.
> >
> >I would like to record Rage so I can capture music videos and edit them
into
> >indvidual clips at a specific frame. I have done some test recording and
it
> >works pretty well, but I would like some clarification/advice from others
> >who do the same type of thing.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Interesting timing of your post. I've just finished working my way
> through this problem myself (FusionHDTV card). I've never spent much
> time converting between video formats and it seems like digital TV
> captures are inherently messy (demuxing, transport streams, ratios
> etc) anyway.
>
> I found that for digital tv to DVD (or clips) google ends up being
> more of a hinderance than a help. You'll find page after page of "If
> you have card brand g then use a to prepare b then convert to c using
> z but only if c was set at y with audio prepared in v...." (etc etc)
>
> This is what worked for me to get all of my Rage clips off the HDD.
> Again - this is with a FusionHDTV card:
>
> 1. Record your program using the "Digital Capture Native MPEG" setting
>
> 2. Load your massive MPEG file into Video ReDo Plus
> (http://www.videoredo.com). This would have to be the simplest and
> most user-intuitive video editing apps I've ever used. Drag the
> timeline slider around - select start/end points for each clip (tweak
> by frame if desired)- save the clips as DVD-ready MPEGs (also playback
> fine on PC through WMP).
>
> 3. Use Nero 7 Ultra Edition to author the DVD. Just drag in your clips
> (at full resolution/bitrate I can get ~25-30 music videos to a 4.7GB
> DVD-R), whip up a basic menu structure (dead easy!) and burn.
>
> Hope this helps. If you tweak this - or find an even easier way -
> please share! :-)
>

I've used your method (steps 1 & 2, as I just want to store the clips on HDD
for playing through my media server PC) and it works nicely - quick and
simple. I like the ability to use Video ReDo to preview the clips I might
not know by "fast forwarding", and with the playlist supplied on the Rage
website, finding the ones I'm after is pretty easy. I especially like Video
ReDo's frame-accuracy. Thanks for the tip.

I record straight to mpeg even though VideoReDo can handle dvr-ms files. I
just don't see the benefit of MS's "format", or with recording the whole
transport stream.

My HDD is getting full very quickly though LOL, as I don't re-encode the
clips to a lower resolution. Not sure if I want to do this - I can always
burn to DVD-R if HDD space becomes a problem.

- Chock

[Ext User(Matt McLeod)]

In aus.music Chock <no@spam.com> wrote:
> My HDD is getting full very quickly though LOL, as I don't re-encode the
> clips to a lower resolution. Not sure if I want to do this - I can always
> burn to DVD-R if HDD space becomes a problem.

I found that converting clips to MPEG-4 (using DivX or XviD) with
a reasonable bitrate gave very good results while dramatically
reducing file size. DVD players with MPEG-4 support are getting
quite common these days, so it's not the limiting factor it used
to be.

Matt