Mmm a 2005 German road tunnel pics etc

[Mot Adv-NSW]

Australia has a serious problem in its road design guidelines in relation to TUNNEL BUILDING, we do NOT allow for an unbroken 2.5 - 3.0 metre wide left hand emergency shoulder as we should.

This is a recent German tunnel example albiet with the shoulder, naturally, off to the right right, of their so called slow-lane:

http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image14.html

http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image17.html

JP

[Ext User(Neil Gerace)]

"FuTAnT" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message
news:43f53c8a$0$15129$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>
> "Mot Adv-NSW" <Mot.Adv-NSW.23coye@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote in message
> news:Mot.Adv-NSW.23coye@no-mx.phorums.com.au...
>>
>> Australia has a serious problem in its road design guidelines in
>> relation to TUNNEL BUILDING, we do NOT allow for an unbroken 2.5 - 3.0
>> metre wide left hand emergency shoulder as we should.
>>
>> This is a recent German tunnel example albiet with the shoulder,
>> naturally, off to the right right, of their so called slow-lane:
>>
>> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image14.html
>>
>> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image17.html
>>
>> JP
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mot Adv-NSW
>
> Absolutely. I was talking to someone about this the other day. I can't
> understand why they don't have a proper shoulder, or at the very least, 3
> lanes!

I wonder how wide the emergency lane in the Polly Pipe is? Bernd? Anyone?
Bueller?

[Ext User(Bernd Felsche)]

"Neil Gerace" <geracen@iinet.net.au> writes:
>"FuTAnT" <blah@blah.com> wrote:
>> "Mot Adv-NSW" <Mot.Adv-NSW.23coye@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote:

>>> Australia has a serious problem in its road design guidelines in
>>> relation to TUNNEL BUILDING, we do NOT allow for an unbroken 2.5
>>> - 3.0 metre wide left hand emergency shoulder as we should.

>>> This is a recent German tunnel example albiet with the shoulder,
>>> naturally, off to the right right, of their so called slow-lane:

>>> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image14.html

>>> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image17.html

>> Absolutely. I was talking to someone about this the other day. I
>> can't understand why they don't have a proper shoulder, or at the
>> very least, 3 lanes!

>I wonder how wide the emergency lane in the Polly Pipe is? Bernd?

Not very. I doubt that it's even 2m wide. Probably 1.5m

Vehicles that pass stationary ones parked to the left have to use
the space in otehr lanes.

Hope this works for you:
<http://www2.mainroads.wa.gov.au/NR/mrwa/frames/Standards/standardsr.asp?L=/Internet/Standards/RTems/default.asp&G={3A9A693F-F01A-48C8-B793-0DE0037C532E}&T={3A9A693F-F01A-48C8-B793-0DE0037C532E}>

Else go to http://www.mainroads.gov.au and follow the links to
"Standards" -> "Roads and Traffic Engi." Then click on "Geometric
Design" followed by "Roadways".

Click on Part 3 "Selection of Cross Sectional Elements". Which'll
bring up document 67-08-62D. Section 3.3 specifies shoulder widths.

That appears to have been applied; ignoring that there are WALLS
at the side preventing egress from a vehicle on one side in an
emergency in a tunnel.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X against HTML mail | they threaten."
/ \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

[Ext User(Neil Gerace)]

"Bernd Felsche" <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:cbtfc3xcih.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au...

> Not very. I doubt that it's even 2m wide. Probably 1.5m
>
> Vehicles that pass stationary ones parked to the left have to use
> the space in otehr lanes.
>
> Hope this works for you:
> <http://www2.mainroads.wa.gov.au/NR/mrwa/frames/Standards/standardsr.asp?L=/Internet/Standards/RTems/default.asp&G={3A9A693F-F01A-48C8-B793-0DE0037C532E}&T={3A9A693F-F01A-48C8-B793-0DE0037C532E}>

Thanks - it worked fine in Firefox, which makes a change :-)

> Else go to http://www.mainroads.gov.au and follow the links to
> "Standards" -> "Roads and Traffic Engi." Then click on "Geometric
> Design" followed by "Roadways".
>
> Click on Part 3 "Selection of Cross Sectional Elements". Which'll
> bring up document 67-08-62D. Section 3.3 specifies shoulder widths.

The pipe is a freeway, so that table would seem to dictate a left shoulder
of 3m and a median shoulder of 2.5m --> they scrimped because of cost.

"For economic reasons, on long span structures over 75 metres in length, and
on long embankments where stage construction is involved, shoulder widths
may be reduced to 1.0 m fully sealed."

This may have been applied to the pipe, although I think it refers to
embankments and bridges rather than tunnels with walls.


I wonder what'll happen when the two lanes are turned into three and the
shoulders disappear altogether.

[Ext User(D Walford)]

Mot Adv-NSW wrote:
> Australia has a serious problem in its road design guidelines in
> relation to TUNNEL BUILDING, we do NOT allow for an unbroken 2.5 - 3.0
> metre wide left hand emergency shoulder as we should.
>
> This is a recent German tunnel example albiet with the shoulder,
> naturally, off to the right right, of their so called slow-lane:
>
> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image14.html
>
> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image17.html
>
> JP
>
>
I agree we need emergency lanes in tunnels, there only needs to be a
small incident in either of the Melb Citylink tunnels to create a
traffic jam, to be of any value they need to be at least 3.0mts wide,
trucks are mostly 2.5mts wide so anything less than 3.0mtrs is still not
safe.
We also need drivers educated about what not to do when they have a car
problem on a freeway, last week I saw a woman walking beside her broken
car in the rh lane on the Westgate freeway, traffic at fwy speed were
just missing her yet she didn't seem in a hurry to get out of their way.
I said to my wife we should watch the 6pm news to see if that crazy
woman was killed.


Daryl

[Ext User(Neil Gerace)]

"D Walford" <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:43f55a13$0$17813$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
> Mot Adv-NSW wrote:
>> Australia has a serious problem in its road design guidelines in
>> relation to TUNNEL BUILDING, we do NOT allow for an unbroken 2.5 - 3.0
>> metre wide left hand emergency shoulder as we should.
>>
>> This is a recent German tunnel example albiet with the shoulder,
>> naturally, off to the right right, of their so called slow-lane:
>>
>> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image14.html
>>
>> http://www.autobahn17.de/fotos/bild22/imagepages/image17.html
>>
>> JP
>>
>>
> I agree we need emergency lanes in tunnels, there only needs to be a small
> incident in either of the Melb Citylink tunnels to create a traffic jam,
> to be of any value they need to be at least 3.0mts wide, trucks are mostly
> 2.5mts wide so anything less than 3.0mtrs is still not safe.

I reckon you'd need about 5m so you can open a door next to the tunnel wall.

[Ext User(John McKenzie)]

Mot Adv-NSW wrote:
>
> Australia has a serious problem in its road design guidelines in
> relation to TUNNEL BUILDING, we do NOT allow for an unbroken 2.5 - 3.0
> metre wide left hand emergency shoulder as we should.
>
> This is a recent German tunnel example albiet with the shoulder,
> naturally, off to the right right, of their so called slow-lane:

DOLT!

They build the tunnel as narrow as possible, so an extra lane can't be
used in emergencies. Then when traffic flow increases, they have to shut
it down, and expand (or start anew) the tunnel, and jack up tolling
points everywhere to rort (I mean appropriately charge) us for it.

--
John McKenzie

tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com
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sweep.day@accc.gov.au uce@ftc.gov I am the angel of jute, vengeance will
be twine admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost
$USER@localhost $USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost root@mailloop.com
president@whitehouse.gov vice.president@whitehouse.gov
abuse@iprimus.com.au abuse@cia.gov abuse@fbi.gov abuse@asio.gov.au
abuse@federalpolice.gov.au

[Ext User(athol)]

John McKenzie <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote:

> They build the tunnel as narrow as possible, so an extra lane can't be
> used in emergencies. Then when traffic flow increases, they have to shut
> it down, and expand (or start anew) the tunnel, and jack up tolling
> points everywhere to rort (I mean appropriately charge) us for it.

This is precisely why the F3-to-M2 tunnels _must_ be built as 3-lanes each
way (plus breakdown lanes), regardless of whether it's done as a freeway
or a tollway.

Some idiotic paperwork from the route study suggests that it would be only
2 lanes eachway if tollway but 3 lanes each way if freeway. WTF are they
thinking, FFS!!! At the end of the toll period, the road will need to be
3 lanes regardless.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(Bernd Felsche)]

athol <me@privacy.net> writes:
>John McKenzie <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote:

>> They build the tunnel as narrow as possible, so an extra lane
>> can't be used in emergencies. Then when traffic flow increases,
>> they have to shut it down, and expand (or start anew) the tunnel,
>> and jack up tolling points everywhere to rort (I mean
>> appropriately charge) us for it.

>This is precisely why the F3-to-M2 tunnels _must_ be built as
>3-lanes each way (plus breakdown lanes), regardless of whether it's
>done as a freeway or a tollway.

>Some idiotic paperwork from the route study suggests that it would
>be only 2 lanes eachway if tollway but 3 lanes each way if freeway.
>WTF are they thinking, FFS!!! At the end of the toll period, the
>road will need to be 3 lanes regardless.

What's this "end of toll period" myth?
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X against HTML mail | they threaten."
/ \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

[Ext User(Neil Gerace)]

"Bernd Felsche" <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:70fgc3xqik.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au...
> athol <me@privacy.net> writes:

>>Some idiotic paperwork from the route study suggests that it would
>>be only 2 lanes eachway if tollway but 3 lanes each way if freeway.
>>WTF are they thinking, FFS!!! At the end of the toll period, the
>>road will need to be 3 lanes regardless.
>
> What's this "end of toll period" myth?

Must be like the removal of Federal income tax after the war.

[Ext User(Toby Ponsenby)]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:35:29 +0800, Neil Gerace wrote:

> "Bernd Felsche" <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> news:70fgc3xqik.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au...
>> athol <me@privacy.net> writes:
>
>>>Some idiotic paperwork from the route study suggests that it would
>>>be only 2 lanes eachway if tollway but 3 lanes each way if freeway.
>>>WTF are they thinking, FFS!!! At the end of the toll period, the
>>>road will need to be 3 lanes regardless.
>>
>> What's this "end of toll period" myth?
>
> Must be like the removal of Federal income tax after the war.

Beat me to is:-)
End of toll = a repealed tax.

To Athols comment.
Bne just opened a new road. Called Linkfield road.
It's a couple of Kms long, and links a reasonably busy 4 laner (2
each) with an entry/exit to the 6 lane each way Bruce highway at a
place called Bald Hills.
No, senseless don't have a map sorted for it - not even a palid
outline of the proposal:-)

And GovCo has done it again.
A magnificent expenditure on a one lane each way road - congested at
peak from day one!!!
There's a bridge of course, the infrastructure from construction of
which has been disappeared already to ensure we plebs don't get the
idea that another one would be a good idea right about now.
Faark.

Too stupid to build roads properly - what chance running a public
health system?
No chance.


--
Toby.
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

[Ext User(athol)]

Bernd Felsche <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote:

> What's this "end of toll period" myth?

These are privately built tollways, so there is a pre-defined end date for
handover to the gov't. If the gov't chooses to maintain tolling, that
doesn't alter the fact that the private toll consortium company will have
wound up and paid its final dividends to the consortium partners.

Beyond that, it's entirely in the hands of the politicians whether the
toll continues or not...

IIRC, the end dates are about 25 or 30 years after the scheduled opening
date. In the case of the M7, the road ended up open about a year ahead of
schedule, so the toll company gets an extra year of tolls as a bonus for
completing that early.

With the disaster that is the cross-city tunnel, the state gov't might be
a little more cautious about private toll roads ATM. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(athol)]

Toby Ponsenby <toby@privacy.net> wrote:

> To Athols comment.
> Bne just opened a new road. Called Linkfield road.
> It's a couple of Kms long, and links a reasonably busy 4 laner (2
> each) with an entry/exit to the 6 lane each way Bruce highway at a
> place called Bald Hills.

Obviously, the link should be a dual carriageway, 4 lane road. If
there is a decent hill involved, there should be a climbing lane on
the ascending side of that...

> No, senseless don't have a map sorted for it - not even a palid
> outline of the proposal:-)

No surprise there. Have you tried the QLD lands department?

> And GovCo has done it again.
> A magnificent expenditure on a one lane each way road - congested at
> peak from day one!!!

That's usually referred to as a "traffic relief route". It's what
they build if the gov't simply won't pay for the whole road.

> There's a bridge of course, the infrastructure from construction of
> which has been disappeared already to ensure we plebs don't get the
> idea that another one would be a good idea right about now.
> Faark.

When's the next state election up there?

The next one here is in March next year (fixed terms obtained by an
independant who allowed the coalition to gain government without an
actual majority many years ago) and it appears that the politicians
are already in election mode!

I'd suggest that you immediately email or write to every local paper
to point out that the duplication should have been part of the
original construction and that it is needed immediately.

> Too stupid to build roads properly - what chance running a public
> health system?
> No chance.

For some reason, people seem to laugh when I say that I went to
school with our local MP and the only class we had in common was
rollcall. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(bacco|007)]

On 18 Feb 2006 03:28:13 GMT, athol wrote:

> Beyond that, it's entirely in the hands of the politicians whether the
> toll continues or not...

I believe the days of the removal of tolls has passed - the government
needs the money to fund other stupid ventures (not road mantainance like
the govt tolls were supposidly for)
--
aDTVinfo - http://adtvinfo.bacco007.info
Knowfirst - http://www.knowfirst.info

[Ext User(athol)]

Mot Adv-NSW <Mot.Adv-NSW.23coye@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote:

Jeremy, has your email address changed? I sent an email to your
gotalk email address on Friday and I haven't had a response (or a
bounce for that matter).

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Mot Adv-NSW]

Athol - I received your email to mot.adv@gotalk.com.au yesterday, chasing an update to this today. Appreciate your filling me in and encourage you in your ongoing effort, change taks time as they say:-)

Anyhow not using Gotalk it to 'send', but do check daily.

I am using: motorists_advocate@yahoo.com.au

R.
Jeremy