Catalytic convertor question...

[Ext User(Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL)]

I quick question for all you ADR experts out there...

I have always thought that all petrol engined vehicles with 4 wheels or more
built during or after 1986 must be fitted with a catalytic converter.

But....

A friend tells me that utes, being commercial vehicles, are covered by
different emissions regulations than cars. And a ute like..... (for example)
a 1990 Holden Rodeo would not have been fitted with a catalytic converter
when it was new.

I don't believe him. Who is correct?

Thanks
Jack

[Ext User(John Henderson)]

Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL wrote:

> I quick question for all you ADR experts out there...
>
> I have always thought that all petrol engined vehicles with 4
> wheels or more built during or after 1986 must be fitted with
> a catalytic converter.
>
> But....
>
> A friend tells me that utes, being commercial vehicles, are
> covered by different emissions regulations than cars. And a
> ute like..... (for example) a 1990 Holden Rodeo would not have
> been fitted with a catalytic converter when it was new.
>
> I don't believe him. Who is correct?

Catalytic converters have never been mandatory in Australia, on
any vehicle. It's just that no other economical technology is
able to deliver the low emission requirements of the ADRs, and
unleaded (catalytic converter friendly) petrol was mandated for
this reason as well as to reduce environmental lead levels.

As for some petrol-engined commercial vehicles being able to
meet their emission requirements without the assistance of a
converter, I don't know the answer.

John

[Ext User(atec77)]

John Henderson wrote:
> Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL wrote:
>
>> I quick question for all you ADR experts out there...
>>
>> I have always thought that all petrol engined vehicles with 4
>> wheels or more built during or after 1986 must be fitted with
>> a catalytic converter.
>>
>> But....
>>
>> A friend tells me that utes, being commercial vehicles, are
>> covered by different emissions regulations than cars. And a
>> ute like..... (for example) a 1990 Holden Rodeo would not have
>> been fitted with a catalytic converter when it was new.
>>
>> I don't believe him. Who is correct?
>
> Catalytic converters have never been mandatory in Australia, on
> any vehicle. It's just that no other economical technology is
> able to deliver the low emission requirements of the ADRs, and
> unleaded (catalytic converter friendly) petrol was mandated for
> this reason as well as to reduce environmental lead levels.
>
> As for some petrol-engined commercial vehicles being able to
> meet their emission requirements without the assistance of a
> converter, I don't know the answer.
>
> John
Gas

[Ext User(Tsunami)]

"Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL" <vk2cjc@look-me-up-on-qrz.com> wrote in message
news:019Uf.13704$dy4.8551@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I quick question for all you ADR experts out there...
>
> I have always thought that all petrol engined vehicles with 4 wheels or
more
> built during or after 1986 must be fitted with a catalytic converter.
>
> But....
>
> A friend tells me that utes, being commercial vehicles, are covered by
> different emissions regulations than cars. And a ute like..... (for
example)
> a 1990 Holden Rodeo would not have been fitted with a catalytic converter
> when it was new.
>
> I don't believe him. Who is correct?
>
> Thanks
> Jack
>

Utes do not have to have a cat because the heat retained within a cat is
higher than that within a standard garden variety steel pipe, and can ignite
long grass etc.
Farmers have parked in a dry paddock and ignited the grass.... caused by
the stinking hot cat. I dunno why upon introduction of unleaded in the early
80's an exception was made for commercials ...... maybe the Farmer's Fed
lobbied?? Seems common sense prevailed over greenies for once.

I doubt the response from John a little.... surely you can't say a petrol
ute can meet ADR emissions without a cat, whereas every single road car in
Australia cannot without using a cat? I mean if there was a way to meet
ADR's without a (restrictive) cat, every manufacturer of performance (and
borderline "advertised-as-performance") cars would ditch the cat to squeeze
that last kilowatt out of it.
They are required by ADR's and commercial veh's are exempt due to fire risk.

[Ext User(Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL)]

> They are required by ADR's and commercial veh's are exempt due to fire
> risk.

Well stuff me! Seems I was wrong.

Does anyone have any links to information on this? Are commercials still
exempt? What year did commercials start getting cats?

I've searched the NSW RTA website and found it as useful as an ashtray on a
motorbike.

Somebody must have some definitive info. Thanks for the input so far.

Jack

[Ext User(John Henderson)]

"Tsunami" <.> wrote:

> I doubt the response from John a little.... surely you can't
> say a petrol ute can meet ADR emissions without a cat, whereas
> every single road car in Australia cannot without using a cat?

Then the emission requirements for utes must have been relaxed
so that the catalytic converter isn't required.

From http://www.dotars.gov.au/mve/general_info.aspx

"These ADRs do not mandate the use of particular technology,
although it has been necessary for manufacturers to fit
catalytic converters to vehicles in order to meet the emission
limits in ADR 37."

John

[Ext User(D Walford)]

Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL wrote:
>>They are required by ADR's and commercial veh's are exempt due to fire
>>risk.
>
>
> Well stuff me! Seems I was wrong.
>
> Does anyone have any links to information on this? Are commercials still
> exempt? What year did commercials start getting cats?

My 2003 Hilux has a cat convertor if thats any help.



Daryl

[Ext User(Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL)]

> My 2003 Hilux has a cat convertor if thats any help.

I've had my head stuck under every ute I've seen all morning :o)

Every one up to 1999 has no cat. One made in 2004 has one. haven't found any
between those years yet.

I know there was a shake up of emission regs in 2002, maybe that's when
commercials got the cat.

Makes you wonder, if utes were exempt cats due to fire risk, at what point
was that fire risk deemed unimportant. I am sure the greenies would consider
burning some farmers out of home and livelihood an acceptable casualty for
slightly cleaner air. After all, we all know they have a shortage of fresh
air in the bush :o)

Jack

[Ext User(budgie)]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:07:51 +1000, atec77 <atec77**@hotmail.com> wrote:


>Gas

Drink more water, eat less beans.

[Ext User(athol)]

Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL <vk2cjc@look-me-up-on-qrz.com> wrote:
> I quick question for all you ADR experts out there...

Well, I've read the answers from the amateurs (excluding those killfiled) and
nobody apparently knew the answer, so here goes. :-)

> I have always thought that all petrol engined vehicles with 4 wheels or more
> built during or after 1986 must be fitted with a catalytic converter.

As one other person correctly noted, there is no compulsory fitment of a cat.
It's just the most viable method of meeting certain emission levels...

> A friend tells me that utes, being commercial vehicles, are covered by
> different emissions regulations than cars. And a ute like..... (for example)
> a 1990 Holden Rodeo would not have been fitted with a catalytic converter
> when it was new.

> I don't believe him. Who is correct?

He is correct for commercial vehicles with a GVM of over 2.7T and pre-dating
ADR 37/01, which was progressively implemented in the late 1990s.

In ADR 37, 37/00 and 37/01, there are 2 different sets of emission limits.
One set is for cars and commercials with a GVM under 2.7T, the other is for
commercials over 2.7T GVM.

In practice, the emission limits were such that the more lenient limits were
able to be achieved without needing cat convertors.

The limits for >2.7T vehicles in ADR 37/01 are more strict than the limits
for cars in ADR 37/00, so the later ones all run cats. The new euro emission
rules are even worse...

Now you know why so many commercials have a GVM of just over 2700kg. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(Kev)]

athol wrote:
> Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL <vk2cjc@look-me-up-on-qrz.com> wrote:
>
>>I quick question for all you ADR experts out there...
>
>
> Well, I've read the answers from the amateurs (excluding those killfiled) and
> nobody apparently knew the answer, so here goes. :-)
>
>
>>I have always thought that all petrol engined vehicles with 4 wheels or more
>>built during or after 1986 must be fitted with a catalytic converter.
>
>
> As one other person correctly noted, there is no compulsory fitment of a cat.
> It's just the most viable method of meeting certain emission levels...
>
>
>>A friend tells me that utes, being commercial vehicles, are covered by
>>different emissions regulations than cars. And a ute like..... (for example)
>>a 1990 Holden Rodeo would not have been fitted with a catalytic converter
>>when it was new.
>
>
>>I don't believe him. Who is correct?
>
>
> He is correct for commercial vehicles with a GVM of over 2.7T and pre-dating
> ADR 37/01, which was progressively implemented in the late 1990s.
>
> In ADR 37, 37/00 and 37/01, there are 2 different sets of emission limits.
> One set is for cars and commercials with a GVM under 2.7T, the other is for
> commercials over 2.7T GVM.
>
> In practice, the emission limits were such that the more lenient limits were
> able to be achieved without needing cat convertors.
>
> The limits for >2.7T vehicles in ADR 37/01 are more strict than the limits
> for cars in ADR 37/00, so the later ones all run cats. The new euro emission
> rules are even worse...
>
> Now you know why so many commercials have a GVM of just over 2700kg. :-)
>


so what about the Subaru Brumby
work mate years ago had an 87 Brumby and it wasn't even fitted with a
ULP filler neck and had no cat converter fitted, he bought it new

when he had it serviced the dealer told him it didn't need to comply
with the current emissions because it was a commercial

Kev

[Ext User(Kev)]

Kev wrote:
>
>
> so what about the Subaru Brumby
> work mate years ago had an 87 Brumby and it wasn't even fitted with a
> ULP filler neck and had no cat converter fitted, he bought it new
>
> when he had it serviced the dealer told him it didn't need to comply
> with the current emissions because it was a commercial
>
> Kev


I should also mention he bought it new in 88 and it was complianced in
late 87

Kev

[Ext User(atec77)]

Kev wrote:
> Kev wrote:
>>
>>
>> so what about the Subaru Brumby
>> work mate years ago had an 87 Brumby and it wasn't even fitted with a
>> ULP filler neck and had no cat converter fitted, he bought it new
>>
>> when he had it serviced the dealer told him it didn't need to comply
>> with the current emissions because it was a commercial
>>
>> Kev
>
>
> I should also mention he bought it new in 88 and it was complianced in
> late 87
>
> Kev
the law changed in 2002 approx .
Read Athols post properly

[Ext User(athol)]

Kev <kevcat@optunet.com.au> wrote:

> so what about the Subaru Brumby
> work mate years ago had an 87 Brumby and it wasn't even fitted with a
> ULP filler neck and had no cat converter fitted, he bought it new

> when he had it serviced the dealer told him it didn't need to comply
> with the current emissions because it was a commercial

IIRC, there was something quite weird around '86 to mid '88, wherein the
>2.7T GVM models were covered by ADR 36A (heavy duty vehicle emissions)
but only cars were covered by ADR 37. By default, the light commercials
were covered by the older ADR 36, which hadn't changed since about '78.
Consequently, ULP requirements weren't added for those vehicles until
the arrival of ADR 37/00 in 7/88. That's about the bset I can figure
out from looking at the old ADRs.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(athol)]

atec77 <atec77**@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Read Athols post properly

Nah. I fecked up. I over simplified and didn't mention the ADR 36 stuff
that went on between '86 and '88. I've answered that separately in another
post.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(atec77)]

athol wrote:
> atec77 <atec77**@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Read Athols post properly
>
> Nah. I fecked up. I over simplified and didn't mention the ADR 36 stuff
> that went on between '86 and '88. I've answered that separately in another
> post.
>
Did you get that last joke ?

[Ext User(Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL)]

Thanks athol, and everyone else who answered. That explains why my rodeo
doesnt have a cat.

One small extra question. What makes it a commercial vehicle less than 2.7
tonnes?

My rodeo is a ute with a seperate chassic, no argument there. But what about
car derived utes? Falcons and Commodores? Are they covered by the car or
commercial regs?

Also, what about Rodeo 4x4s. Are the sedan style bodies cars (and therefore
with cats) and those with ute bodies commercials (and without cats).

And what about dual cabs? Are they cars or commercials?

Are you getting bored of me yet? :o)

Thanks
Jack

[Ext User(Mike)]

In article <BPlUf.14122$dy4.7728@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, vk2cjc@look-me-up-on-qrz.com says...

>Makes you wonder, if utes were exempt cats due to fire risk, at what point
>was that fire risk deemed unimportant. I am sure the greenies would consider
>burning some farmers out of home and livelihood an acceptable casualty for
>slightly cleaner air. After all, we all know they have a shortage of fresh
>air in the bush :o)

There has coincidentally been changes in CAT technology, initially much
higher levels of precious metals. For a bit more than last 10years lower
cost cats with less and different mixes of Pt, Pa, Rh etc have come out and
it might be they dont have such a heat soak problem, the ceramic core
also seems to be a bit different, not nearly as restrictive as in the
old days.

We certainly couldnt have roadside cafe's in the city if we didnt
have cats ;-)


--
Regards
Mike
* GMC/VL Commodore, Calais VK/VL Fuse box upgrade that wont warp or melt !
* High grade milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin Tyres to suit most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au

[Ext User(D Walford)]

Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL wrote:
>>My 2003 Hilux has a cat convertor if thats any help.
>
>
> I've had my head stuck under every ute I've seen all morning :o)
>
> Every one up to 1999 has no cat. One made in 2004 has one. haven't found any
> between those years yet.
>
> I know there was a shake up of emission regs in 2002, maybe that's when
> commercials got the cat.
>
> Makes you wonder, if utes were exempt cats due to fire risk, at what point
> was that fire risk deemed unimportant. I am sure the greenies would consider
> burning some farmers out of home and livelihood an acceptable casualty for
> slightly cleaner air. After all, we all know they have a shortage of fresh
> air in the bush :o)
>

I wonder if ground clearance is also considered, my 4WD has a lot more
ground clearance and should therefore be less of a fire risk than a 2WD?


Daryl

[Ext User(Kev)]

Jack VK2CJC / MM0AXL wrote:

> Thanks athol, and everyone else who answered. That explains why my rodeo
> doesnt have a cat.
>
> One small extra question. What makes it a commercial vehicle less than 2.7
> tonnes?
>
> My rodeo is a ute with a seperate chassic, no argument there. But what about
> car derived utes? Falcons and Commodores? Are they covered by the car or
> commercial regs?
>
> Also, what about Rodeo 4x4s. Are the sedan style bodies cars (and therefore
> with cats) and those with ute bodies commercials (and without cats).
>
> And what about dual cabs? Are they cars or commercials?
>
> Are you getting bored of me yet? :o)
>
> Thanks
> Jack
>
>


any vehicle designed to carry a load other than passengers maybe??
because the Brumbie, Nissan 1200, Mazda Bongo and 1200 utes and the
multitude of Jap micro vans were way under 2.7Tonnes GVM


Kev