I Was Wondering ...

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"Orpheus" <no@more.spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:no-172883.11071701022006@unknown.astraweb.com...
> "Bonzo" <bonzoo@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

OK let's cut all the crap and useless meandering ...

My basic position is ... True atheists should have no fear of divine
retribution after they cark it.

It therefore follows that "anything goes" with respect to their actions in
this universe, with the obvious proviso that they are not caught out.

Obviously the atheists in this newsgroup are not true atheists viz: they
have serious doubts about their beliefs and therefore spout on about how
good it is to behave "morally" (whatever that means to an atheist!).

Now, going back to my original question, which, so far, nobody in this
newsgroup has had the courage to answer.

* * * * * *
Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on their
convictions??
* * * * * *

Core answers only please, no waffling on about related matters, such as Mr
Morien has a wont to do.

PS: I am puzzled as to why some of you introduce the Bible, as I have never
in my postings referred to it. (????)


Regards

Bonzo

[Ext User(blewglew)]

> no waffling on

This is an australian investment newsgroup, you are off topic and have
stated you know you are. I am not the least bit interested in who
athiests admire.

I am sorry you cannot find a fundamentalist or athiest newsgroup to
discuss your topic but there are a number of other religious groups
that seem happy to discuss such matters, why not take the topic to one
of them and leave us alone? You seem to just ignore points that shoot
you down in flames and continue to ask the same question anyway so what
is the point of anyone responding to you I am wondering. If you
believe having the last post on a topic makes you the winner I
apologise for taking it away from you, even if it is no doubt only a
temporary situation.

[Ext User(Travis Morien)]

Bonzo wrote:
> "Orpheus" <no@more.spam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:no-172883.11071701022006@unknown.astraweb.com...
> > "Bonzo" <bonzoo@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
> OK let's cut all the crap and useless meandering ...
>
> My basic position is ... True atheists should have no fear of divine
> retribution after they cark it.

True, they don't fear divine retribution.

> It therefore follows that "anything goes" with respect to their actions in
> this universe, with the obvious proviso that they are not caught out.

However people do get caught out. The more of a cheat you are, the
more enemies you'll make. The more enemies you make, the more
unpleasant your life.

Also, many people have an inherent desire to be, and to be seen by
others as, a good person. Most people care about their reputation,
most people want to be remembered with fondness rather than enmity.

> Obviously the atheists in this newsgroup are not true atheists viz: they
> have serious doubts about their beliefs and therefore spout on about how
> good it is to behave "morally" (whatever that means to an atheist!).

if someone is not a "true" atheist then it means they must believe in a
god or gods. It does not follow that the only reason why people wish
to be held in high esteem by others is that they secretly believe if
they aren't then they'll face divine retribution.
>
> Now, going back to my original question, which, so far, nobody in this
> newsgroup has had the courage to answer.

It has been answered numerous times.
>
> * * * * * *
> Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on their
> convictions??

No. True atheists don't believe in deities. That is all there is to
it.
> * * * * * *
>
> Core answers only please, no waffling on about related matters, such as Mr
> Morien has a wont to do.

You're a fool, and your arguments have no logical basis at all.

To prove that your claim that all morality comes from a divine source
is false, consider this;

There are multiple religions in the world. All claim to be the one
true religion and their truth is divinely inspired. Since many of the
basic tenets of these religions are mutually contradictory, at least
some of the religions must be utterly false and all but one religion
must contain some falsehood. (Though there is no logical reason to
believe that there is in fact a "true" religion, its possible that all
religions are wrong)

However various religions have often contradictory moral systems. In
some it is ok to eat anything you like, in others specific foods are
banned (e.g. pork), other religions impose strict vegetarianism.

It follows that the vast majority of these systems of morality are NOT
divinely inspired, because at most one of these religions is "true",
the others are "false".

Hence morality can arise without divine intervention. People invent
and adhere to strict and complex moral codes, which arose without the
involvement of any deity.

Ergo, your whole argument is false. People CAN and DO invent their own
morality systems.

It is more likely that religions incorporate the morality of the
societies that invent them rather than societies being made moral by
religion.

Explanations for why humans invent systems of morality have already
been discussed repeatedly in this thread and I don't intend to go over
it again.

So will you shut up and stop making a fool of yourself now or are you
determined to attract further ridicule?

Travis
www.travismorien.com

[Ext User(John Smyth)]

"Bonzo" <bonzoo@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:43e3fc11$0$31193$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> "Orpheus" <no@more.spam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:no-172883.11071701022006@unknown.astraweb.com...
> > "Bonzo" <bonzoo@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
> OK let's cut all the crap and useless meandering ...
>
> My basic position is ... True atheists should have no fear of divine
> retribution after they cark it.
>
> It therefore follows that "anything goes" with respect to their actions in
> this universe, with the obvious proviso that they are not caught out.


WRONG - Athiests are still interested in realities outside themselves. For
example I make my cats happy because they enjoy it (and I do too) not
because God approves. I believe the relevant philosophical category is
called "ontics, ontic suffering, ontology".

>
> Obviously the atheists in this newsgroup are not true atheists viz: they
> have serious doubts about their beliefs and therefore spout on about how
> good it is to behave "morally" (whatever that means to an atheist!).


Morality is not about what pleases God, its about ontic evils (or their
minimisation). Ontic evils are for example suffering, deprivation,
destroying etc. In fact if there is no ontic evil in a situation, then by
definition there is no moral problem either. (I got these excellent ideas
from a moral theologian called Dick Westerly's "Morality and its Beyond"
published late 70s/early 80s. Highly recommended. Book certainly changed my
paradygm about morality. Just ignore the religious bits.)



> Now, going back to my original question, which, so far, nobody in this
> newsgroup has had the courage to answer.
>
> * * * * * *
> Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on their
> convictions??

Obviously Not - "Courage to act on one's convictions" is about what's going
on in one's head. That's a small subset of a person's real impact, which is
a small subset of life, the universe and everything. Maybe we could respect
or be inspired by the courage, if we dumb ourselves down to ignore the
consequences of that courage.

> * * * * * *
>
> Core answers only please, no waffling on about related matters, such as Mr
> Morien has a wont to do.
>
> PS: I am puzzled as to why some of you introduce the Bible, as I have
never
> in my postings referred to it. (????)
>
>
> Regards
>
> Bonzo
>
>

The big question here concerns the fact that sometime in the future the
earth will be engulfed by the expanding sun, and that will some time later
be followed by the collision of our galaxy with the andromeda galaxy. So in
that context why bother about anything. I think the answer is probably that
it won't matter then, but it did matter now.

Cheers

John Smyth

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"blewglew" <blewglew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139030052.116894.321040@o13g2000cwo.googlegr oups.com...

{snip waffle]

Tsk, tsk ... don't look now ... but ... you're waffling!

Are you related to Travis by any chance?

Regards

Bonzo

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1139036586.854855.306470@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> It therefore follows that "anything goes" with respect to their actions
>> in
>> this universe, with the obvious proviso that they are not caught out.
>
> However people do get caught out. The more of a cheat you are, the
> more enemies you'll make. The more enemies you make, the more
> unpleasant your life.
>
> Also, many people have an inherent desire to be, and to be seen by
> others as, a good person. Most people care about their reputation,
> most people want to be remembered with fondness rather than enmity.

Ah, we agree on "self interest" then. Comgratulations Travis!

>> Now, going back to my original question, which, so far, nobody in this
>> newsgroup has had the courage to answer.
>
> It has been answered numerous times.

Really? Where? Please reiterate.

>> Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on their
>> convictions??
>
> No. True atheists don't believe in deities. That is all there is to
> it.

Answer the question please. Reiterate if necessary. TIA

> Hence morality can arise without divine intervention. People invent
> and adhere to strict and complex moral codes, which arose without the
> involvement of any deity.
> Ergo, your whole argument is false. People CAN and DO invent their own
> morality systems.

I would not call a system that relies on a person's fear of being caught out
as a system of morality. Damn, I can;t think of the proper terminology. Can
you?

Ergo it does require the existence of a deity.

Regards

Bonzo

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"John Smyth" <smyth@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:43e56f13@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> It therefore follows that "anything goes" with respect to their actions
>> in
>> this universe, with the obvious proviso that they are not caught out.

> WRONG - Athiests are still interested in realities outside themselves. For
> example I make my cats happy because they enjoy it (and I do too) not
> because God approves. I believe the relevant philosophical category is
> called "ontics, ontic suffering, ontology".

ontics????

>> Obviously the atheists in this newsgroup are not true atheists viz: they
>> have serious doubts about their beliefs and therefore spout on about how
>> good it is to behave "morally" (whatever that means to an atheist!).
>
>
> Morality is not about what pleases God,

Yes it is, otherwise it cannot be called "morality". Without a deity
"morality" is an artifice in an AMORAL, inanimate universe.

its about ontic evils (or their
> minimisation).

there is no such thing as absolute "evil" in an atheist's universe. There
are only RELATIVELY better or worse options in an AMORAL universe. An
inanimate universe cannot have absolute morality existing within it!

[snips further waffle]

>> Now, going back to my original question, which, so far, nobody in this
>> newsgroup has had the courage to answer.
>>
>> * * * * * *
>> Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on their
>> convictions??
>
> Obviously Not - "Courage to act on one's convictions" is about what's
> going
> on in one's head.

Exactly, and that's ALL that can go on because atheists do not beleive in a
deity.
So everything going on is "in one's head". The outside world is an
inanimate, AMORAL place filled with others, like yourself, having "things
going on in their heads".

[snips further waffle]

> The big question here concerns the fact that sometime in the future the
> earth will be engulfed by the expanding sun, and that will some time later
> be followed by the collision of our galaxy with the andromeda galaxy. So
> in
> that context why bother about anything. I think the answer is probably
> that
> it won't matter then, but it did matter now.

The aforementioned is only a big question to atheists. So what's your point
here??

BTW. Answer the question without waffling please.

Regards

Bonzo

[Ext User(Tonen)]

Bonzo - we are almost in agreement - it's just that most here don't
give a rats about a squillion gods "out there" - just like you, except
for you it's a squilloin minus one.
Now talk about investment or bugger off and go door knocking - or is
this your version of the lazy man's way of earning Brownee points?

[Ext User(Travis Morien)]

Tonen wrote:
> Bonzo - we are almost in agreement - it's just that most here don't
> give a rats about a squillion gods "out there" - just like you, except
> for you it's a squilloin minus one.

:)

Well put.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever
believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

" I am an agnostic pagan. I doubt the existence of many gods. " - anon

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible
gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

"Theists think all gods but theirs are false. Atheists simply don't
make an exception for the last one" - anon

Here are some quotes from various atheists on morality, atheism and
related topics:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of
punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." - Albert Einstein

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for
reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstei

"Religion is a by-product of fear. For much of human history, it may
have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary?
Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of
insanity?" - Arthur C. Clarke

"That's the problem with religion: you beat your way past the clerics,
fight your way through the demons, stand before the holy of holies, and
when you rip away the veil, there's nothing there but a mirror." - Owen
Rowley

"The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of
moral progress in the world." - Bertrand Russell

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with
religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal

"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you
do. " - anon

"If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his
name, he'd never stop throwing up." - anon

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy." -
anon

"It is a farce to call any being virtuous whose virtues do not result
from the exercise of its own reason." - Mary Wollstonecraft

"What we call God's justice is only man's idea of what he would do if
he were God." - Elbert Hubbard

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration -
courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the
truth." - H L Mencken

"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to
laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral
virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts
all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men." -
Francis Bacon

"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're
just making him madder and madder." - Homer Simpson :)

"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe
and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image to be servants
of their human interests." - George Santayana

"Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life." - anon

"Fundamentalism means never having to say "I'm wrong." - anon


"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always
convinced that it says what he means." - George Bernard Shaw

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei

"When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a
woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the
Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"" -
Quentin Crisp

"Today the god hypothesis has ceased to be scientifically tenable ...
and its abandonment often brings a deep sense of relief. Many people
assert that this abandonment of the god hypothesis means the
abandonment of all religion and all moral sanctions. This is simply not
true. But it does mean, once our relief at jettisoning an outdated
piece of ideological furniture is over, that we must construct some
thing to take its place." - Sir Julian Huxley

"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion,
and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." - anon

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there
be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of
blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

"I don't spend much time thinking about whether God exists. I don't
consider that a relevant question. It's unanswerable and irrelevant to
my life, so I put it in the category of things I can't worry about." -
Wendy Kaminer

"Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your
intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no
need for faith."- anon

"It is usually when men are at their most religious that they behave
with the least sense
and the greatest cruelty." - Ilka Chase

"I'm an atheist, and that's it. I believe there's nothing we can know
except that we should be kind to each other and do what we can for
other people." - Katharine Hepburn

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to
believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas
Adams

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." -
Voltaire

"Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to
shine." - Arthur Schopenhauer

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." - Don
Hirschberg

"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest
imaginary friend." - anon

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you
can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it
can't be taken on its own merits." - Dan Barker, preacher turned
atheist

"If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a
manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's okay, he's God. He can do
whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his
sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond
recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the
opposite." - Dennis McKinsey

"There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers
on their knees, with their eyes closed." - anon

"Several thousand years ago, a small tribe of ignorant near-savages
wrote various collections of myths, wild tales, lies, and gibberish.
Over the centuries, these stories were embroidered, garbled, mutilated,
and torn into small pieces that were then repeatedly shuffled. Finally,
this material was badly translated into several languages successively.
The resultant text, creationists feel, is the best guide to this
complex and technical subject." - Tom Weller

"Men will wrangle for religion; write for it; fight for it; die for it;
anything but live for it." - Charles Caleb Colton

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your Christians are
so unlike your Christ"
- Mahatma Gandhi (NB: not an atheist!)

"A disturbing fact continues to surface in sex abuse research. The
first best predictor of abuse is alcohol or drug addiction in the
father. But the second best predictor is conservative religiosity,
accompanied by parental belief in traditional male-female roles. This
means that if you want to know which children are most likely to be
sexually abused by their father, the second most significant clue is
*whether or not the parents belong to a conservative religious group
with traditional role beliefs and rigid sexual attitudes*. (Brown and
Bohn, 1989; Finkelhor, 1986; Fortune, 1983; Goldstein et al, 1973; Van
Leeuwen, 1990). - "Sexual Abuse in Christian Homes and Churches", by
Carolyn Holderread Heggen, Herald Press, Scotdale, PA, 1993 p. 73

"It never ceases to amaze me at how many religions depend upon
circumcised penises." - Dawn Henderson

Faith; noun. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks
without knowledge, of things without parallel." - Ambrose Bierce

"Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of
a single petitioner confessedly unworthy." - Ambrose Bierce

Scriptures; noun. The sacred books of our holy religion, as
distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other
faiths are based. - Ambrose Bierce

"Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves you
and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most
awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save it for
someone you love." - Butch Hancock

"What was it that Adam ate that he wasn't supposed to eat? It wasn't
just an apple. It was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and
Evil. The subtle message? 'Get smart and I'll fuck you over' sayeth the
Lord. God is the smartest, and he doesn't want any Competition. Is this
not an absolutely anti-intellectual religion?" - Frank Zappa

"You are never dedicated to do something you have complete confidence
in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise
tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are
fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other
kind of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are
in doubt." - Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen & The Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance"

"Man is a Religious Animal. Man is the only Religious Animal. He is the
only animal that has the True Religion -- several of them. He is the
only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if
his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in
trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and
heaven.... The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that
they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems
questionable taste." - Mark Twain

"The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and
progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The
Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of
Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth
was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced
against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has
been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in
artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before
Christian religion was born." - Mark Twain

"Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is
above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it." - Mark
Twain

"...Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very very best he
is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is
unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a
sarcasm. Yet he blandly and in all sincerity calls himself the 'noblest
work of God.'" - Mark Twain

"There is nothing in either savage or civilized history that is more
utterly complete, more remorselessly sweeping than the Father of
Mercy's campaign among the Midianites. The official report deals only
in masses, all the virgins, all the men, all the babies. all 'creatures
that breathe,' all houses. all cities. It gives you just one vast
picture ...as far as the eye can reach, of charred ruins and
storm-swept desolation... Would you expect this same conscienceless
God, this moral bankrupt, to become a teacher of morals, of gentleness,
of meekness, of righteousness, of purity?" - Mark Twain

"Strange...a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet
preferred to make bad ones; who made them prize their bitter life, yet
stingily cut it short; mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied
seventy times seven and invented Hell; who mouths morals to other
people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them
all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the
responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it
where it belongs, upon himself; and finally with altogether divine
obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark
Twain

"During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible
commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the
Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800
years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set
about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day
during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned
whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world
clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no
such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to
laugh or to cry." - Mark Twain

"The mind of the fundamentalist is like the pupil of the eye: the more
light you pour on it, the more it will contract." - anon

"Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion
is doing what you are told no matter what is right." - anon

"Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he
both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor
willing? Then why call him god?" - Epicurus (341-270 BCE)

"If the lord had meant us to have faith, he'd have given us
lobotomies." - Zlatko

"In the long run nothing can withstand reason and experience, and the
contradiction religion offers to both is only too palpable." - Sigmund
Freud

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all
his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism;
he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I
require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings
and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages
of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely
benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much
absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce
it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the
same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him
to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the
roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and
imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of
the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820

"We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church
dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at
the stake." - Catherine Fahringer

"To assert that Christianity communicated to man moral truths
previously unknown, argues on the part of the asserter either gross
ignorance or else willful fraud.... The system of morals expounded in
the New Testament contains no maxims which had not been previously
enunciated." - Henry Thomas Buckle

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind." - Thomas Paine

> Now talk about investment or bugger off and go door knocking - or is
> this your version of the lazy man's way of earning Brownee points?

"The trouble with born-again Christians is that they are an even bigger
pain the second time around." - Herb Caen

Here is a particularly pertinent one:

"Since logic, reason, and historical precision play no part in
Christianity, unfortunately, these disciplines are useless in
discussions with Christians." - anon

But to tilt toward on topic material for this newsgroup;

"It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something
now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their
reward systems don't try to make it posthumous." - Gloria Steinem

[Ext User(Tim Josling)]

Travis quoth:
>"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy." -
> anon

This reminds me of an old joke. "Why were the putitans against sex?"
"Because it might lead to dancing".

Tim Josling

[Ext User(Travis Morien)]

Tim Josling wrote:
> Travis quoth:
> >"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy." -
> > anon
>
> This reminds me of an old joke. "Why were the putitans against sex?"
> "Because it might lead to dancing".
>

*LOL* I hadn't heard that one before.

Travis
www.travismorien.com

[Ext User(John Smyth)]

I give up Bonzo.
You win.
You know it all already.
Sorry for all that waffle.
snip.


"Bonzo" <bonzoo@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:43e57847$0$30400$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> "John Smyth" <smyth@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:43e56f13@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> >> It therefore follows that "anything goes" with respect to their actions
> >> in
> >> this universe, with the obvious proviso that they are not caught out.
>
> > WRONG - Athiests are still interested in realities outside themselves.
For
> > example I make my cats happy because they enjoy it (and I do too) not
> > because God approves. I believe the relevant philosophical category is
> > called "ontics, ontic suffering, ontology".
>
> ontics????
>
> >> Obviously the atheists in this newsgroup are not true atheists viz:
they
> >> have serious doubts about their beliefs and therefore spout on about
how
> >> good it is to behave "morally" (whatever that means to an atheist!).
> >
> >
> > Morality is not about what pleases God,
>
> Yes it is, otherwise it cannot be called "morality". Without a deity
> "morality" is an artifice in an AMORAL, inanimate universe.
>
> its about ontic evils (or their
> > minimisation).
>
> there is no such thing as absolute "evil" in an atheist's universe. There
> are only RELATIVELY better or worse options in an AMORAL universe. An
> inanimate universe cannot have absolute morality existing within it!
>
> [snips further waffle]
>
> >> Now, going back to my original question, which, so far, nobody in this
> >> newsgroup has had the courage to answer.
> >>
> >> * * * * * *
> >> Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on their
> >> convictions??
> >
> > Obviously Not - "Courage to act on one's convictions" is about what's
> > going
> > on in one's head.
>
> Exactly, and that's ALL that can go on because atheists do not beleive in
a
> deity.
> So everything going on is "in one's head". The outside world is an
> inanimate, AMORAL place filled with others, like yourself, having "things
> going on in their heads".
>
> [snips further waffle]
>
> > The big question here concerns the fact that sometime in the future the
> > earth will be engulfed by the expanding sun, and that will some time
later
> > be followed by the collision of our galaxy with the andromeda galaxy. So
> > in
> > that context why bother about anything. I think the answer is probably
> > that
> > it won't matter then, but it did matter now.
>
> The aforementioned is only a big question to atheists. So what's your
point
> here??
>
> BTW. Answer the question without waffling please.
>
> Regards
>
> Bonzo
>
>

[Ext User(Travis Morien)]

Some more...

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely
superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our
weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality
is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God. ~Albert
Einstein

The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor
tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy
of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action.
~Albert Einstein

If the sole reason why you must not kill your neighbour is because God
has forbidden it and will severely punish you for it in this or the
next life - then, when you learn that there is no God and that you need
not fear His punishment, you will certainly kill your neighbour without
hesitation, and you can only be prevented from doing so by mundane
force. Thus either these dangerous masses must be held down most
severely and kept most carefully away from any chance of intellectual
awakening, or else the relationship between civilization and religion
must undergo a fundamental revision. ~Sigmund Freud, The Future of an
Illusion

There were honest people long before there were Christians and there
are, God be praised, still honest people where there are no Christians.
It could therefore easily be possible that people are Christians
because true Christianity corresponds to what they would have been even
if Christianity did not exist. ~G.C. Lichtenberg

There seems to be a terrible misunderstanding on the part of a great
many people to the effect that when you cease to believe you may cease
to behave. ~Louis Kronenberger

People who rely most on God rely least on themselves. ~Lemuel K.
Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays

It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as
it is apt to lead to infidelity. ~Abraham Lincoln, quoted in What
Great Men Think Of Religion by Ira Cardiff

Faith, indeed, has up to the present not been able to move real
mountains.... But it can put mountains where there are none.
~Friedrich Nietzche, Human, All Too Human, 1879

The god who is reputed to have created fleas to keep dogs from moping
over their situation must also have created fundamentalists to keep
rationalists from getting flabby. Let us be duly thankful for out
blessings. ~Garrett Hardin

The act of bellringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It
implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people.
~Ezra Pound

In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in
almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.
~Mark Twain

If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to
save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the
pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and
righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God,
and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul. ~Isaac Asimov, I. Asimov:
A Memoir

Religion has not civilized man, man has civilized religion. ~Robert
Green Ingersoll

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by
not committing them? ~Jules Feiffer

Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves.
Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. ~Robert
Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long

I think I'll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don't believe in
Gosh too, you'll be darned to heck. ~Author Unknown

Instead of being born again, why not just grow up? ~Unknown

To hear many religious people talk, one would think God created the
torso, head, legs and arms, but the devil slapped on the genitals.
~Don Schrader

An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An
Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now -
here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that
he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the
inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to
subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of
himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding
that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know
himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows
that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows
that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives
for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease
conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to
understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows
that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope
for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our
brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible
persons, that the job is here and the time is now. ~Madalyn Murray
(later O'Hair), preamble to Murray v. Curlett, 27 April 1961

Religion seems to have a way of making people abandon logic. ~Amanda
Baxter

So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in
praise of intelligence. ~Bertrand Russell

You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible
fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous
folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as
yet, quite intelligent enough. ~Aldous Huxley

A Christian is a man who feels
Repentance on a Sunday
For what he did on Saturday
And is going to do on Monday.
~Thomas Russell Ybarra, The Christian

A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to
atheism. ~Donald Morgan

A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to
suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism. ~Carl Sagan

Nature wants us to enjoy life to the full and die without giving it a
second thought; Christianity wants the opposite. ~Sainte-Beuve, Les
Cahiers

There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher -
the clergyman. ~Victor Hugo

Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their religion.
~Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays

Most people's religion is what they want to believe, not what they do
believe. ~Luther Burbank, Why I Am an Infidel

I have never resisted the lord in my life, and I never will. But I'm
not so hungry for dialogue with him that I have to make up his part as
well as my own. ~Orson Scott Card
A great deal of what passes for current Christianity consists in
denouncing other people's vices and faults. ~Henry H. Williams

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a
fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time.
Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is
the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the
practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "Does not!"
~Dr.Pepper@f241.n103.z1.fidonet.org

It is the position of some theists that their right to freedom OF
religion is abridged when they are not allowed to violate the
rationalists' right to freedom FROM religion. ~James T. Green

A dogma will thrive in soil where the truth could not get root.
~Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the
edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!'
'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live
for!' He said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Well...are you religious or
atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too! Are you Christian
or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too! Are you
Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too! Are
you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me
too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He
said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you original
Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He
said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too! Are you
reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed
Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed
Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic
scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillips

The problem with fundamentalists insisting on a literal interpretation
of the Bible is that the meaning of words change. A prime example is
'Spare the rod, spoil the child.' A rod was a stick used by shepherds
to guide their sheep to go in the desired direction. Shepherds did not
use it to beat their sheep. The proper translation of the saying is
'Give your child guidance, or they will go astray.' It does not mean
'Beat the shit out of your child or he will become rotten' as many
fundamentalist parents seem to belive. ~Author Unknown

The Christian Right is neither. ~Author Unknown

[Creation science is] an attempt to give credibility to Hebrew
mythology by making people believe that the world's foremost
biologists, paleontologists, and geologists are a bunch of incompetent
nincompoops. ~Ron Peterson

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.
~Author Unknown

"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism,
it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow

Without cultural sanction, most or all our religious beliefs and
rituals would fall into the domain of mental disturbance. ~John F.
Schumaker, Corruption of Reality, Unified Theory of Religion, Hypnosis
and Psychotherapy

We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us
love one another. ~Jonathan Swift, Miscellanies, 1711

We are punished by our sins, not for them. ~Elbert Hubbard

It is wonderful how much time good people spend fighting the devil. If
they would only expend the same amount of energy loving their fellow
men, the devil would die in his own tracks of ennui. ~Helen Keller

On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no
position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs.
There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus
Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being.
But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf
should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing
throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom.
They are trying to force government leaders into following their
position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a
particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of
money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political
preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to
be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they
think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to
dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a
legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who
thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll
call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every
step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all
Americans in the name of conservatism.' ~Barry Goldwater (Goldwater
died in 1989, the world could certainly use a few more like him today!)

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1139163179.723566.168390@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

[Snipped an amazingly copious number of "clever" but irrelevant quotes]

Yes, yes Travis, but what has all this to do with my simple (at least I
thought it was simple) question ???

Why won't you answer it ???

Without too much waffle of course, otherwise I will fall asleep at my
keyboard valiantly, but vainly, attempting to wade through it all !

A little conciseness and brevity on your part would be greatly appreciated,
and not only by my humble self !

I dare you, or anyone else for that matter to provide a sensible answer !!

I reiterate ....

* * * * * Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to act on
their strongly held convictions ? * * * * *


So it is fated to be that I have had the final say on the matter.

Thank you, fellow newsgroupies, for all your "interesting" responses.

Regards

Bonzo

PS: I still (and will forever) insist that what all those clever people
quoted by yourself call "morality" is no such thing because absolute
morality is totally at odds with an inanimate, AMORAL universe !..

There, I've had the last word

[Ext User(Travis Morien)]

Bonzo wrote:
> "Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1139163179.723566.168390@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>
> [Snipped an amazingly copious number of "clever" but irrelevant quotes]
>
> Yes, yes Travis, but what has all this to do with my simple (at least I
> thought it was simple) question ???

A lot. Most of the quotes dealt directly with the subject of morality
and atheism, asserting that morality is a purely human construct that
has over time influenced religions, as opposed to a supernatural
construct which is intrinsically religious. Indeed several of the
quotes emphasised the actual EVIL that is done in the name of religion,
something which results from the extreme arrogance and
sefl-righteousness that so often accompanies strong religious
conviction.

> Why won't you answer it ???

I did, a number of times. And just to prove my answer is not unique, I
gave quotes from numerous people stressing that atheists can be moral
and ethical without being religious.

Bonzo, I'm sure on some planet your arguments are sensible and we'd all
be rocked by your wisdom and forced to concede that the true reason why
we're not all raping, looting and pillaging 24/7 is because we're all
religious.

Unfortunately, this is Earth. Your arguments make no sense on this
planet and you are only making a fool of yourself.

Good luck finding your new homeworld.

Travis
www.travismorien.com

[Ext User(Trevor_S)]

"Bonzo" <bonzoo@ozemail.com.au> wrote in
news:43ee7628$0$31260$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:

<snip>

> I dare you, or anyone else for that matter to provide a sensible
> answer !!
>
> I reiterate ....
>
> * * * * * Do true atheists admire all those who have the courage to
> act on
> their strongly held convictions ? * * * * *

All those, short answer you say ? No.

--
Trevor S


"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1139727120.457376.255210@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...

[snip ...snip ...snip]

Regards

Bonzo

PS: Bad luck Travis, I've had the last word

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1139727120.457376.255210@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...

Hi Travis, I just could not resist responding to this post ... sorry.

> Bonzo wrote:
>> "Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1139163179.723566.168390@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> [Snipped an amazingly copious number of "clever" but irrelevant quotes]
>>
>> Yes, yes Travis, but what has all this to do with my simple (at least I
>> thought it was simple) question ???
>
> A lot. Most of the quotes dealt directly with the subject of morality
> and atheism, asserting that morality is a purely human construct that
> has over time influenced religions, as opposed to a supernatural
> construct which is intrinsically religious. Indeed several of the
> quotes emphasised the actual EVIL that is done in the name of religion,
> something which results from the extreme arrogance and
> sefl-righteousness that so often accompanies strong religious
> conviction.

If I remember correctly, I dozed off after reading a few of your quotes.

>
>> Why won't you answer it ???
>
> I did, a number of times. And just to prove my answer is not unique, I
> gave quotes from numerous people stressing that atheists can be moral
> and ethical without being religious.

This does not answer my question.

Try again Travis.

But I'll respond to the aforementioned irrelevancies.

"moral" in an amoral universe? Methinks not.

"ethical" now that's possibly a more apt word. But why would an atheist
bother if he "knows" (He he) he will be nothing more than dust within a few
decades??? Also, what does "ethical" mean to an atheist?

I repeat, have another try at answering the burning question, repeated here
for those with a short attention span.

* * * * * Do true atheists admire and try to emulate all those who have the
courage to act on
their strongly held convictions ? * * * * *


Regards

Bonzo

PS: Again I have the last word

[Ext User(Bonzo)]

"Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1139727120.457376.255210@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...

[More necessary snipping]

My humblest apologies again Travis, but I could not resist such "EVIL"
temptation ...

> Most of the quotes dealt directly with the subject of morality
> and atheism, asserting that morality is a purely human construct that
> has over time influenced religions, as opposed to a supernatural
> construct which is intrinsically religious. Indeed several of the
> quotes emphasised the actual EVIL

"EVIL" does not exist and has absolutely no meaning in an atheists AMORAL
universe.

Regards

Bonzo

.... the last word

[Ext User(MC)]

Bonzo wrote:
> "Travis Morien" <travismorien@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1139727120.457376.255210@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>
> [More necessary snipping]
>
> My humblest apologies again Travis, but I could not resist such "EVIL"
> temptation ...
>
>
>>Most of the quotes dealt directly with the subject of morality
>>and atheism, asserting that morality is a purely human construct that
>>has over time influenced religions, as opposed to a supernatural
>>construct which is intrinsically religious. Indeed several of the
>>quotes emphasised the actual EVIL
>
>
> "EVIL" does not exist and has absolutely no meaning in an atheists AMORAL
> universe.
>
> Regards
>
> Bonzo
>
> ... the last word

sigh...
Big efffing deal.
If you'd asked your questions in a more appropriate forum
then people may might be more predisposed to debate with you.



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