3G range

[Ext User(Graeme Willox)]

What is the range of 3G?

Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80
km on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.

I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls
on my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my
phone bill).

Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected out
of this new system?

[Ext User(Paul Day)]

Graeme Willox <graemewillox@aapt.net.au> may have written:
> What is the range of 3G?
> Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80
> km on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.

I've been wondering the same thing. I even asked it in here a couple of
months ago and got no real response.

The real question is, are you talking "high-speed data" or "just enough
to place a call"? Mr Sheep Farmer's chances of doing a video-call 30km
from a 850MHz 3G/UMTS/WCDMA BS are about as likely as Sol shaving the
moustache off IMHO. And that's the promise Telstra are harping on with:
"Bringing high-speed 3G funky new-age fast-porn mobile to the country!".
I'd be putting my money on the majority of the footprint of the new
850MHz UMTS network not giving them any better speeds or capabilities
than the current 850MHz CDMA2000 1xRTT network.

Will it provide the _same_ coverage/service? Probably, yes. Will it
_exceed_ it and let you place a call further away from the cell? In
practise, probably not.

I remember when Telstra were talking about slipping GSM's time-range to
double the theoretical cell radius to 74km. Did it ever happen?

> I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile
> is voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice
> calls on my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on
> my phone bill).

Hm, I thought due to technical constraints of Telstra's CDMA deployment,
the range was 57km?

> Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected
> out of this new system?

Nope, but I'd be very interested in some details. :)

[Flame-proof pants and jacket on]

PD

--
Paul Day
Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/

[Ext User(alx)]

I can only comment on the quoted specification vs the anecdotal "I;ve been
able to make calls from ..."

Specifications may have some statistical basis eg under certain specified
"ideal" or standard conditions that 95% of calls can be sent and received
within a 80km range.

This of course means that there may be 5% and greater than 80km.

The specs indicate, under certain conditions and, unless otherwise
technically enforced, don;t exclude calls from a greater range...calls that
fall outside the statistical norm under certain conditions.

Have confused myself now but the gist ...make meaningful comparisons.


"Graeme Willox" <graemewillox@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:e3ctqe$45q$1@news-02.connect.com.au...
> What is the range of 3G?
>
> Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80 km
> on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
> voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls on
> my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my phone
> bill).
>
> Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected out of
> this new system?

[Ext User(John Henderson)]

Paul Day wrote:

> I remember when Telstra were talking about slipping GSM's
> time-range to double the theoretical cell radius to 74km. Did
> it ever happen?

There's a few scattered about, Gundagai NSW, Telstra LAC 5680,
cell ID 510 for starters. GSM devices register onto it with a
timing advance value of 63 at distances of 70 km or more.

They also don't support GPRS.

John

[Ext User(thegoons)]

I thought the existing CDMA "boomer" cells did better? Or was that yet
another Telstra lie?

"Graeme Willox" <graemewillox@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:e3ctqe$45q$1@news-02.connect.com.au...
> What is the range of 3G?
>
> Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80 km
> on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
> voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls on
> my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my phone
> bill).
>
> Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected out of
> this new system?



*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[Ext User(Michael)]

"Graeme Willox" <graemewillox@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:e3ctqe$45q$1@news-02.connect.com.au...
> What is the range of 3G?
>
> Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80
> km on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
> voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls
> on my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my
> phone bill).
>
> Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected out
> of this new system?

Same or more as CDMA

[Ext User(Michael)]

> Will it provide the _same_ coverage/service? Probably, yes. Will it

its equivalency, not same

> _exceed_ it and let you place a call further away from the cell? In
> practise, probably not.

Probably yes.

> I remember when Telstra were talking about slipping GSM's time-range to
> double the theoretical cell radius to 74km. Did it ever happen?

Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells, which are listed
on their web site.

Basically a fart in the bath in the size of even their overall small net.

You dont get GPRS on those cells

> > I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile
> > is voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice
> > calls on my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on
> > my phone bill).
>
> Hm, I thought due to technical constraints of Telstra's CDMA deployment,
> the range was 57km?

Nope. They deployed "Boomer" cells not long after CDMA was first
implemented. I can guarantee that 57km is more than possible. Ive used Yea
(Vic) cell while over Bass Strait.

> > Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected
> > out of this new system?

ive got some info but not sure if it is public info yet.

[Ext User(Michael)]

"thegoons" <thegoons@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:445b2192$0$29300$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
> I thought the existing CDMA "boomer" cells did better? Or was that yet
> another Telstra lie?

No, they do work and have been around for a long time now\
>
> "Graeme Willox" <graemewillox@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
> news:e3ctqe$45q$1@news-02.connect.com.au...
> > What is the range of 3G?
> >
> > Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80
km
> > on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.
> >
> > I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
> > voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls
on
> > my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my phone
> > bill).
> >
> > Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected out
of
> > this new system?
>
>
>
> *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[Ext User(Paul Day)]

Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
> Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells, which are
> listed on their web site. Basically a fart in the bath in the size of
> even their overall small net. You dont get GPRS on those cells

Due to the change in the timing of the underlying radio layer?

> > Hm, I thought due to technical constraints of Telstra's CDMA
> > deployment, the range was 57km?

> Nope. They deployed "Boomer" cells not long after CDMA was first
> implemented. I can guarantee that 57km is more than possible. Ive used
> Yea (Vic) cell while over Bass Strait.

I assume you matched it up against your bill? Or did you use some other
method to ID it?

> ive got some info but not sure if it is public info yet.

Well, there's this from "Telstra spokesman Rod Bruem": "He said early
trials of Telstra's new network showed high speed data could be
transmitted at distances of 80km from base stations - 20km more than it
could currently transmit using CDMA technology." (The Australian IT -
http://australianit.news.com.au/wireless/story/0,8256,5-18986045,00.html)

And then there's: ""CDMA is on the way out and other carriers will
follow Telstra's lead because we have the second biggest network in the
world," he said."

*chuckle* I bet the CDG are loving quotes like that coming out of a big
CDMA network's mouth.

PD

--
Paul Day
Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/

[Ext User(Paul Day)]

Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
> Same or more as CDMA

On a related note, would it be a cold day in hell when the CDG sign-off
on WCDMA (or perhaps even with UMTS on top) being an upgrade path from
CDMA2000/EV like we're seeing for GSM?

How different is the radio-layer betwen CDMA2000 etc and WCDMA? I'm
assuming if Telstra are using "80 per cent of the infrastructure" [1],
it can't be incredibly different and a dual-mode CDMA/WCDMA handset
would be simpler than a GSM/WCDMA hand-set?

PD

[1] http://australianit.news.com.au/wireless/story/0,8256,5-18986045,00.html

--
Paul Day
Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/

[Ext User(John Henderson)]

Paul Day wrote:

> Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
>> Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells,
>> which are listed on their web site. Basically a fart in the
>> bath in the size of even their overall small net. You dont
>> get GPRS on those cells
>
> Due to the change in the timing of the underlying radio layer?

GPRS uses multiple timeslots on-demand. Extended range cells
group the available timeslots into pairs (halving the cell's
traffic capacity). Given the complexity of catering for
different multislot classes and the size of the ER market,
extended range GPRS is in the too hard basket.

John

[Ext User(thegoons)]

"Paul Day" <paulspam@bur.st> wrote in message
news:1146967803.91870@colossus.enigma.id.au...
> Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
>> Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells, which are
>> listed on their web site. Basically a fart in the bath in the size of
>> even their overall small net. You dont get GPRS on those cells
>
> Due to the change in the timing of the underlying radio layer?
>
>> > Hm, I thought due to technical constraints of Telstra's CDMA
>> > deployment, the range was 57km?
>
>> Nope. They deployed "Boomer" cells not long after CDMA was first
>> implemented. I can guarantee that 57km is more than possible. Ive used
>> Yea (Vic) cell while over Bass Strait.
>
> I assume you matched it up against your bill? Or did you use some other
> method to ID it?
>
>> ive got some info but not sure if it is public info yet.
>
> Well, there's this from "Telstra spokesman Rod Bruem": "He said early
> trials of Telstra's new network showed high speed data could be
> transmitted at distances of 80km from base stations - 20km more than it
> could currently transmit using CDMA technology." (The Australian IT -
> http://australianit.news.com.au/wireless/story/0,8256,5-18986045,00.html)
>
> And then there's: ""CDMA is on the way out and other carriers will
> follow Telstra's lead because we have the second biggest network in the
> world," he said."
>
> *chuckle* I bet the CDG are loving quotes like that coming out of a big
> CDMA network's mouth.

DOubt the CDG really ever gave a shit about Telstra. They have America,
Korea and Japan sewn up. Telstra never pushed CDMA as they should have.
Like, they could have had roaming agreements in place to many more places.

>
> PD
>
> --
> Paul Day
> Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/



*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[Ext User(Paul Day)]

thegoons <thegoons@bigpond.com> may have written:
> DOubt the CDG really ever gave a shit about Telstra. They have
> America, Korea and Japan sewn up. Telstra never pushed CDMA as they
> should have. Like, they could have had roaming agreements in place to
> many more places.

But they've had inbound roaming agreements for quite a long time. Who
are those networks going to roam to in .au once CDMA dies?

PD

--
Paul Day
Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/

[Ext User(Kubalister)]

thegoons wrote:
> "Paul Day" <paulspam@bur.st> wrote in message
> news:1146967803.91870@colossus.enigma.id.au...
>> Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
>>> Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells, which are
>>> listed on their web site. Basically a fart in the bath in the size of
>>> even their overall small net. You dont get GPRS on those cells
>> Due to the change in the timing of the underlying radio layer?
>>
>>>> Hm, I thought due to technical constraints of Telstra's CDMA
>>>> deployment, the range was 57km?
>>> Nope. They deployed "Boomer" cells not long after CDMA was first
>>> implemented. I can guarantee that 57km is more than possible. Ive used
>>> Yea (Vic) cell while over Bass Strait.
>> I assume you matched it up against your bill? Or did you use some other
>> method to ID it?
>>
>>> ive got some info but not sure if it is public info yet.
>> Well, there's this from "Telstra spokesman Rod Bruem": "He said early
>> trials of Telstra's new network showed high speed data could be
>> transmitted at distances of 80km from base stations - 20km more than it
>> could currently transmit using CDMA technology." (The Australian IT -
>> http://australianit.news.com.au/wireless/story/0,8256,5-18986045,00.html)
>>
>> And then there's: ""CDMA is on the way out and other carriers will
>> follow Telstra's lead because we have the second biggest network in the
>> world," he said."
>>
>> *chuckle* I bet the CDG are loving quotes like that coming out of a big
>> CDMA network's mouth.
>
> DOubt the CDG really ever gave a shit about Telstra. They have America,
> Korea and Japan sewn up. Telstra never pushed CDMA as they should have.
> Like, they could have had roaming agreements in place to many more places.

They no longer have Korea sewn up:
http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/May2006/3017.htm

"This week, mobile operator KTF of Korea also announced that it will
switch focus from its CDMA network to a new nationwide W-CDMA/ HSDPA
network covering 84 South Korean cities by the end of the year. KTF has
cited many compelling reasons for this shift, from simple economic
efficiencies and global roaming to global handset availability and
choice, economies of scale and significant potential revenue gains from
high speed services."

R.I.P. cdma2000.......


>
>> PD
>>
>> --
>> Paul Day
>> Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/
>
>
>
> *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[Ext User(Al Foyle)]

Graeme said....

> I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
> voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls
> on my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my
> phone bill).

Can you or someone please explain then the following:

Tintaldra - 23km as the crow flies from Corryong, in Victoria's NE. I
can get a full signal in Corryong, but ride out to Tintaldra, and
there's nothing. Oh, maybe one flickering bar if I stand out in the
middle of the road outside of the pub. Even then, it cuts in and out.
Only sure method is to send an SMS which will get out when the signal
presents an opportunity.

Phillip Island - at the race track, can receive a full signal. 3.5 km as
the crow flies, in Cowes, it's bouncing between one and two bars and
sometimes cuts out.

Now, in both cases, the landscape between the two locales is probably
best described as a bit undulating. No real hills or mountains to block
signals.

Then there's home. In the house the signal bar is on probably 2-3 bars.
Put the handset in the car kit cradle (CARK-126) and it may pop up to
3-4 bars, but never full strength. The tower is located at the highest
point in town, or just outside of town. Where I live it's halfway up a
hill that faces towards the general direction of the mobile tower. So
I'm not really being blocked by hills or any major structures. At the
most, it's 4 km away.

All the above mentioned distances are measured according to my GPS.

[Ext User(Paul Day)]

Kubalister <Kubalister@no.spam.here> may have written:
> They no longer have Korea sewn up:
> http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/May2006/3017.htm

> "This week, mobile operator KTF of Korea also announced that it will
> switch focus from its CDMA network to a new nationwide W-CDMA/ HSDPA
> network covering 84 South Korean cities by the end of the year. KTF
> has cited many compelling reasons for this shift, from simple economic
> efficiencies and global roaming to global handset availability and
> choice, economies of scale and significant potential revenue gains
> from high speed services."

> R.I.P. cdma2000.......

So, when will the CDG offer the cdma2000 -> W-CDMA/UMTS upgrade path as
"theirs? I'm assuming sharing equipment and bandwidth between cdma2000
and W-CDMA is more possible than GSM -> W-CDMA? Well, at least Telstra
seem to indicate as much.

Wouldn't it be nice to have both camps converging on the same technology
in 5 years time...

PD

--
Paul Day
Web: http://www.enigma.id.au/

[Ext User(mabs)]

Graeme Willox wrote:
> What is the range of 3G?
>
> Telstra is making a big deal out of being able to make data calls at 80
> km on 850 mhz 3G compared to 60 km on CDMA.
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but the main use I have for my mobile is
> voice calls and infrequent texts. I've been able to make voice calls
> on my CDMA phone at 140 km from the base station (as reported on my
> phone bill).
>
> Does anyone have any information on the range which can be expected out
> of this new system?

Aren't you luck, I just recently waded through the Feb senate estimates
committee document where they asked Telstra all about this.

I am paraphrasing, but here goes: Internationally, no-one has tested
UMTS 850 over a long distance, there is a software upgrade in
development to extend current cells from 50-160km.

For CDMA "... if a boomer cell was enabled it was around 180
kilometres." & "we did have calls in excess of 230 kilometres. Those
calls, however, were between an aircraft and a high base station, so
they were not your typical user."

"... has this type of coverage 'the 200 kilometres that was announced
in Telstra's strategic review' ever actually been delivered in a
commercially operating network anywhere in the world?"
"On a UMTS network, no, because the software development needs to be
done before that can be possible."

"When do you envisage being able to test distance? You mentioned you
were testing a video. When is your testing of distance going to start?"
"We expect that will start to occur later this year, and as we get the
new software upgrades for the network we will do additional testing of
coverage."
"But these software upgrades have not been developed yet?"
"They are in the process of being developed."

Source: http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S9089.pdf pp31-32

The above document also has a lot of information on the CDMA - UMTS
upgrade, but it is spread over around half of 100 pages.

[Ext User(Kubalister)]

Paul Day wrote:
> Kubalister <Kubalister@no.spam.here> may have written:
>> They no longer have Korea sewn up:
>> http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/May2006/3017.htm
>
>> "This week, mobile operator KTF of Korea also announced that it will
>> switch focus from its CDMA network to a new nationwide W-CDMA/ HSDPA
>> network covering 84 South Korean cities by the end of the year. KTF
>> has cited many compelling reasons for this shift, from simple economic
>> efficiencies and global roaming to global handset availability and
>> choice, economies of scale and significant potential revenue gains
>> from high speed services."
>
>> R.I.P. cdma2000.......
>
> So, when will the CDG offer the cdma2000 -> W-CDMA/UMTS upgrade path as
> "theirs? I'm assuming sharing equipment and bandwidth between cdma2000
> and W-CDMA is more possible than GSM -> W-CDMA? Well, at least Telstra
> seem to indicate as much.
>
> Wouldn't it be nice to have both camps converging on the same technology
> in 5 years time...
>
> PD

Your assumptions seem to show your misunderstanding.
cdma2000 does NOT have an upgrade path to 3GSM (UMTS/W-CDMA) and NEVER will.
W-CDMA is just the radio interface technology for 3GSM (otherwise
identified as UMTS/W-CDMA). 3GSM is an integral part of the GSM group of
standards produced by the GSM Association. It does not have and never
will have anything to do with the CDG which is a competing group that
has a much smaller number of supporting telcos and subscribers worldwide.

The evolution of cdma2000 to 3G is with the EV-DO and EV-DV standards
which are in no way interoperable with the GSM group of standards. About
the only similarity between the CDG and GSMA standards in 3G technology
is that they both use CDMA for the radio interface but that's about it.
Everything else is as different as chalk and cheese.

You mentioned sharing equipment and bandwidth which is true to an
extent. Telstra has 20MHz of spectrum available in the 870-890MHz band
(10MHz in capital cities) which it uses currently for the cdma2000
network (marketed as 'CDMA'). Since each cdma2000 channel is 1.25MHz
wide it can have a maximum of 16 channels in that band. In reality they
have only deployed 2 to 3 channels for use as voice and 1xRTT packet
data and 1 channel for 3G EV-DO data only use. So with only 5MHz used
out of the 20MHz available it is quite easy to use the rest of their
allocated band to supply 3GSM (UMTS/W-CDMA) services which have a
channel bandwidth of 5MHz each.

The equipment that will be shared is the racks, antennas, feed lines and
existing network interface with GSM hardware.

[Ext User(Michael)]

"Paul Day" <paulspam@bur.st> wrote in message
news:1146967803.91870@colossus.enigma.id.au...
> Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
> > Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells, which are
> > listed on their web site. Basically a fart in the bath in the size of
> > even their overall small net. You dont get GPRS on those cells
>
> Due to the change in the timing of the underlying radio layer?

Some shit like that

> > > Hm, I thought due to technical constraints of Telstra's CDMA
> > > deployment, the range was 57km?
>
> > Nope. They deployed "Boomer" cells not long after CDMA was first
> > implemented. I can guarantee that 57km is more than possible. Ive used
> > Yea (Vic) cell while over Bass Strait.
>
> I assume you matched it up against your bill? Or did you use some other
> method to ID it?

Against the bill.

[Ext User(Michael)]

"John Henderson" <jhenRemoveThis@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:4c54ukF14btj9U1@individual.net...
> Paul Day wrote:
>
> > Michael <michael@yahoo.com> may have written:
> >> Im not sure. It did happen for Voda, for about 12-15 cells,
> >> which are listed on their web site. Basically a fart in the
> >> bath in the size of even their overall small net. You dont
> >> get GPRS on those cells
> >
> > Due to the change in the timing of the underlying radio layer?
>
> GPRS uses multiple timeslots on-demand. Extended range cells
> group the available timeslots into pairs (halving the cell's
> traffic capacity). Given the complexity of catering for
> different multislot classes and the size of the ER market,
> extended range GPRS is in the too hard basket.

Not too hard, just not necessary.

These 12-13 cells on Voda are mainly in Woop Woop.

Woop Woop customers dont need or deserve GPRS. They should be grateful for
the coverage to start with