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dvd_beetle
28-05-2006, 02:40 PM
The IQ is an overpriced heap of pottage, but 'okay' for the great unwashed.

I prefer my Topfield 4000PVR and 5000 Masterpiece. Record anything including FBO and they don't auto delete after a day or so.As someone who worked for foxtel for 2 years, and continues to have to a good relationship with the company I can assure you that 1. the IQ is not over priced, and it is not a profitable product for Foxtel and 2. recording FBO using your equipment is illegal, it is as illegal as copying a recently released DVD. The "limitations" of the Foxtel IQ are deliberate choices to prohibit illegal activity. Foxtel IQ is the only recording device in Australia that can LEGALLY record FBO. They are automatically deleted in accordance with the licenses between the studios/distributors.

By the way Austech.info is a notorious site for obtaining and trading pirated DVD's, compleatly the opposite to a site like this.

Personally, I think your comments are in violation of forum rules, in the same way that discussing DVD piracy is. After all, Australia has the worst level of TV piracy in the world.

jokiin
28-05-2006, 02:45 PM
By the way Austech.info is a notorious site for obtaining and trading pirated DVD's, compleatly the opposite to a site like this.


Actually Austech.info is pretty well known as a place to go for pirated pay TV also, I think that's still their most active section these days, although card sharing seems to be the topic of choice now, before it was about logging or whatever to steal subscriber details.

dvd_beetle
28-05-2006, 02:48 PM
By the way, as I side note I do know that some people used to hack the Foxtel box itself by opening it up to obtain free FBO and Mainevent. This involved ordering it as normal, and then disconnecting the phone line so that the order could not complete, but the process would continue and the box would then store the information to be sent to Foxtel later. Essentially it was impossible to order another FBO or Mainevent without the box sending the information about your last purchase.

So some people devised a method to open the Foxtel STU and hack the hardware such that the cache would clear, and the box would be incapable of communicating its cache - thus people had "free" FBO.

Of course, this was put to a stop, it cannot be done anymore because the process now needs to verify as soon as you watch it - not later. You see, it's because of people like you that the hardware has to be more limited. Now because of a few bad customers everyone has to suffer - if the phone line is unavailable because it's being used then you'll have hang up or log off your internet so you can watch FBO. This was not how it was originally meant to be. The box was originally designed to be more "tolerant" and to verify later if need be.

dvd_beetle
28-05-2006, 02:50 PM
Actually Austech.info is pretty well known as a place to go for pirated pay TV also, I think that's still their most active section these days, although card sharing seems to be the topic of choice now, before it was about logging or whatever to steal subscriber details.Yes, well I don't exactly frequent the site. The illegal activity there should be put to a stop one way or another.

jokiin
28-05-2006, 02:54 PM
Amazing the lengths people go to, I get 2 free FBO movies as part of the package I'm on and have never used even 1 in more than 1 year on this plan, all the movies end up on the other channels anyway.

jokiin
28-05-2006, 02:55 PM
The illegal activity there should be put to a stop one way or another.

I don't know how they get away with openly trading copied DVD's like they do

Mot Adv-NSW
28-05-2006, 03:03 PM
=dvd_beetle]As someone who worked for foxtel for 2 years,

So?

and continues to have to a good relationship with the company I can assure you that 1. the IQ is not over priced,

2.THAT is a matter of OPINION - See the Consumer Affairs forum - http://www.notgoodenough.org/index.php My view is that the IQ is a worthless piece of pottage, it is very restricted in what it can do, and I don't mean in its recording inability - but that it is locked to the provider. It IS a legitimate position of view on my part.


and it is not a profitable product for Foxtel.
THAT is irrelevant - ALL the more reason WHY OPEN MARKET MODEL a la Select should apply. Hopeless really.


2. recording FBO using your equipment is illegal, it is as illegal as copying a recently released DVD. The "limitations" of the Foxtel IQ are deliberate choices to prohibit illegal activity. Foxtel IQ is the only recording device in Australia that can LEGALLY record FBO. They are automatically deleted in accordance with the licenses between the studios/distributors.

I fully realise the last sentence - Time to update, see news release below, thank you F.T.A. The matter remains political - and will be decided by a future election. As a consumer advocate - my position is that if I want to use my own gear, in the PRIVACY of my own home - I shall do so, but will not distribute this for commercial gain, naturally enough. Now, show me the actual legislation, passed by my Commonwealth Parliament that states I must use Foxtel's IQ. Corporate "Policy" is not enforceable l.a.w.

I'd like to see the day when 'media police' come storming into my lounge; 'Jeremy you bastard, you've made a recording on an unapproved device again, 25 years for you'. Fools. Thank god for Australia's inhereted British history.

We shall not debate the $5.95 cost of 3-6 month old movies shown on BOX OFFICE which are readily available through what - video shops?

By the way Austech.info is a notorious site for obtaining and trading pirated DVD's, compleatly the opposite to a site like this.
Then take THAT issue up with them, and beware slander.



Personally, I think your comments are in violation of forum rules, in the same way that discussing DVD piracy is. After all, Australia has the worst level of TV piracy in the world.
You are a try hard if ever their was - NO ONE is suggesting we go and copy DVD's fool. Threatening 'forum rules' is a cop out - a way of trying suppress open discussion, which is NOT the subject of THIS discussion. I've said the IQ is crap (and that's being VERY NICE) - I stand by that.

I don't support 'market restriction'.

http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/MinisterRuddockHome.nsf/Page/Media_Releases_2006_Second_Quarter_14_May_2006_-_Major_Copyright_Reforms_Strike_Balace_-_0882006


JOK11N - You get TWO free FBO's with Foxtel, NOT with Austar, here you get ONE. Why you double post I don't know.

jokiin
28-05-2006, 03:06 PM
The not good enough site is a great laugh, some people have no idea about reality and just love to vent

Tsargrad
28-05-2006, 03:11 PM
Amazing the lengths people go to, I get 2 free FBO movies as part of the package I'm on and have never used even 1 in more than 1 year on this plan, all the movies end up on the other channels anyway.
I'm on the same plan. I was using the 2 box office, but I need to put in a line splitter or some shit since I went to broadband, but haven't been stuffed in getting it.

Mot Adv-NSW
28-05-2006, 03:19 PM
The not good enough site is a great laugh, some people have no idea about reality and just love to vent

Sure, but the same applies here too. Indeed in most forums, the chattering classes like you only know how to 'bitch', it's an art - but that is life.

IF you *really* want to see venting 'man' - go visit here:
http://members.essentialbaby.com.au/index.php?showforum=116

dvd_beetle
28-05-2006, 03:46 PM
2.THAT is a matter of OPINION - See the Consumer Affairs forum - http://www.notgoodenough.org/index.php My view is that the IQ is a worthless piece of pottage, it is very restricted in what it can do, and I don't mean in its recording inability - but that it is locked to the provider. It IS a legitimate position of view on my part.Mobile Phones are locked to their provider. Hollywood tried to lock DVD players to their regions, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo lock their games to their local regions "providers". There are a thousand products that are "locked to their providers". Foxtel IQ is locked because it's a legal device, and to prevent potentially illegal recording. It's also locked so it can offer legal features such as being able to record FBO for limited amounts of time - this would not be possible with a 3rd party product.
and it is not a profitable product for Foxtel.
THAT is irrelevant - ALL the more reason WHY OPEN MARKET MODEL a la Select should apply. Hopeless really.Rubbish. 1. The Foxtel IQ is sold at a loss. Any 3rd party product would be sold for profit. 2. The smartcards that Foxtel uses are designed specifically for use in the STU they're provided with - allowing others 3rd parties to make satellite/cable decoders that decode the Foxtel signal opens up the possibility to pirate PAY TV by copying the smartcards. You can record most of the Foxtel channels (with the exception of FBO, Mainevent and Adults Only) on any VCR, PDR or DVD-recorder. As the encryption that's currently being used has not been cracked, you can't pirate Foxtel (except by paying for a 2nd STU and taking that to a different address - which is of course an illegal breach of your contract to Foxtel).
I fully realise the last sentence - Time to update, see news release below, thank you F.T.A. The matter remains political - and will be decided by a future election. As a consumer advocate - my position is that if I want to use my own gear, in the PRIVACY of my own home - I shall do so, but will not distribute this for commercial gain, naturally enough.And that position is fair enough for most channels - but not for pay per view.
I'd like to see the day when 'media police' come storming into my lounge; 'Jeremy you bastard, you've made a recording on an unapproved device again, 25 years for you'. Fools. Thank god for Australia's inhereted British history.

We shall not debate the $5.95 cost of 3-6 month old movies shown on BOX OFFICE which are readily available through what - video shops?The 3-6 months is reliant on the policy of the distributors. Look it up, they all have specific policies on when to release a title to pay per view.
You are a try hard if ever their was - NO ONE is suggesting we go and copy DVD's fool. Threatening 'forum rules' is a cop out - a way of trying suppress open discussion, which is NOT the subject of THIS discussion. I've said the IQ is crap (and that's being VERY NICE) - I stand by that.You've talked about piracy as well.
I don't support 'market restriction'.

http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/MinisterRuddockHome.nsf/Page/Media_Releases_2006_Second_Quarter_14_May_2006_-_Major_Copyright_Reforms_Strike_Balace_-_0882006Nor do I, those changes sound perfectly reasonable. I don't support piracy either.
JOK11N - You get TWO free FBO's with Foxtel, NOT with Austar. Why you double post I don't know.So? Austar's largest package is a few dollars cheaper then Foxtel's platinum package. FBO is still priced the same at $5.95 each.

By the way I don't see how any of these "restrictions" affects law-abiding, contract-honouring customers.

jokiin
28-05-2006, 04:19 PM
JOK11N - You get TWO free FBO's with Foxtel, NOT with Austar, here you get ONE. Why you double post I don't know.
Not all that familiar with what Austar offer or how their system works, I have Fox so that's what I'm more familiar with, I don't know where I double posted but whatever


Thanks for the link but I don't think checking out the baby site will add anything:eek:

Mot Adv-NSW
28-05-2006, 04:34 PM
dvd_beetle]Mobile Phones are locked to their provider.

But generally CAN be unlocked after payment of a fee. More below.


[I]Hollywood tried to lock DVD players to their regions, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo lock their games to their local regions "providers". There are a thousand products that are "locked to their providers".

And that is all part of the debate as to what should be locked and what should not. Here I am discussing a consumer 'right' to use my own gear. And I will AND I most certainly 'do'.


Foxtel IQ is locked because it's a legal device, and to prevent potentially illegal recording.
Foxtel was forced to do this, hell, even by what - Showtime? . . . It is a 'licensed' device.


It's also locked so it can offer legal features such as being able to record FBO for limited amounts of time - this would not be possible with a 3rd party product.
"Limited Amounts of Time". . . Bring back the VCR and Video Enhancers, how the hell does this complete rubbish attract customers unless they are first made drunk and hypnotised?


Rubbish. 1. The Foxtel IQ is sold at a loss.
Surprise surprise!


Any 3rd party product would be sold for profit.
So? Select TV (and even under 'Contracts' UBI) - allow you either a choice of using their own decoder - a UEC 990, OR that you are FREE TO USE YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT, works well for me and does in Europe where I can buy gear and genuine provider sub cards. I am aware of one Fox manager saying that 'churn' will be a problem for Select, that remains to be seen and is a business issue in any case which is part tied.

It then falls to the the subscriber to choose whether or not he or she decides to record, or not, OR invite friends over to view. It is the consumer who is ultimately responsible at law for such action, not the provider playing the role of dumb nanny.


2. The smartcards that Foxtel uses are designed specifically for use in the STU they're provided with.
Yes, the boxes are NDS-Videoguard encrypted, the card only serves to open the subscribed channels. But being DVB compliant can, in technical terms be used in non provider boxes but only for those subscribed channels. That action falls outside the 'Contract' (Arguable at court) one is forced to take up when so wasting money.


- allowing others 3rd parties to make satellite/cable decoders that decode the Foxtel signal opens up the possibility to pirate PAY TV by copying the smartcards.

You cannot COPY these smartcards. Allowing third party decoders, which do indeed exist and I certainly have a couple, gives the consumer a greater freedom of choice of features, 'look' and often much nicer practical on-screen menu. A "matter of choice", and if someone subscribes, - they should be given that choice, provided they don't then pirate the service by sharing beyond the house or otherwise distributing.


You can record most of the Foxtel channels (with the exception of FBO, Mainevent and Adults Only) on any VCR, PDR or DVD-recorder. As the encryption that's currently being used has not been cracked,

The 'encryption' you discuss in this area is not NDS and you know it, or should, and it does affect that supposed ability for some. Macrovision.


You can't pirate Foxtel (except by paying for a 2nd STU and taking that to a different address - which is of course an illegal breach of your contract to Foxtel).

Explain TV 'pirate' as applied under applicable Commonwealth law, either as a criminal offence or not????


And that position is fair enough for most channels - but not for pay per view. The 3-6 months is reliant on the policy of the distributors. Look it up, they all have specific policies on when to release a title to pay per view.

Then it is the distributors and FTA negotiators that need a reality check. People want to make recordings and keep them, full stop. This is where a 'seeming' impass is borne - but is managed well by Select TV by subscriber onus, assisted by the proposed new legislation - be that all fair or not.


You've talked about piracy as well.
Again, explain piracy per above. I was asked a question as to 'how do I view this or that'.

I'll talk about piracy anytime I wish btw. I am not telling you how to pirate? by getting something for free. That is just not good for business which I don't wish to see fail, but rather change and modernise - to catch up with more enlightened countries (not USA).


Nor do I, those changes sound perfectly reasonable.
Those changes are both - both workable and absolutely not. They *will* involve high court challenges on many topical fronts, from home entry in enforcement to technical detail. I see much end-user litigation in the next 5-10 years, and as a legal person, this is good.


I don't see how any of these "restrictions" affects law-abiding, contract-honouring customers.

Those restrictions exist, they are very real, albiet I argue with them mis-guided, and relate to the inability in relation to Foxtel and Austar, in using our own DVB compliant decoders, 'that' is market restriction. Do not tie this in with mobile phones - because we have the right AND ability to buy own phones IF we want, something simply can't do in contract with pay TV provider Foxtel and Austar, but CAN with Select TV and others.

Awsum1
28-05-2006, 04:40 PM
Ok, I'll ask, that's funny why?

ahahahah no reason :D

jokiin
28-05-2006, 04:45 PM
ahahahah no reason :D

That's what I thought:rolleyes:

Mot Adv-NSW
28-05-2006, 04:46 PM
dvd_beetle]Mobile Phones are locked to their provider.

But generally CAN be unlocked after payment of a fee.


[I]Hollywood tried to lock DVD players to their regions, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo lock their games to their local regions "providers". There are a thousand products that are "locked to their providers".

And that is all part of the debate as to what should be locked and what should not. This conversation relates to compliant "DVB" - Digital Video Broadcasting" by satellite delivery, not of Tekken Three by Sony.


Foxtel IQ is locked because it's a legal device, and to prevent potentially illegal recording.

Foxtel was forced to do this, hell, even by what - Showtime? . . . It is a 'licensed' device.


It's also locked so it can offer legal features such as being able to record FBO for limited amounts of time - this would not be possible with a 3rd party product.

"Limited Amounts of Time". . . Bring back the VCR and Video Enhancers, how the hell does this rubbish attract customers?


1. The Foxtel IQ is sold at a loss.
Surprise surprise!


Any 3rd party product would be sold for profit.
So? Select TV (and even under 'Contracts' UBI) - allow you either a choice of using their own decoder - a UEC 990, OR that you are FREE TO USE YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT, works well for me and does in Europe where I can buy gear and genuine provider sub cards. I am aware of one Fox manager saying that 'churn' will be a problem for Select, that remains to be seen and is a business issue in any case which is part tied.

It then falls to the the subscriber to choose whether or not he or she decides to record, or not, OR invite friends over to view. It is the consumer who is ultimately responsible at law for such action, not the provider playing the role of dumb nanny.


2. The smartcards that Foxtel uses are designed specifically for use in the STU they're provided with.
Yes, the boxes are NDS-Videoguard encrypted, the card only serves to open the subscribed channels. But being DVB compliant can, in technical terms be used in non provider boxes but only for those subscribed channels. That action falls outside the 'Contract' (Arguable at court) one is forced to take up when so wasting money.


- allowing others 3rd parties to make satellite/cable decoders that decode the Foxtel signal opens up the possibility to pirate PAY TV by copying the smartcards.

You cannot COPY these smartcards. Allowing third party decoders, which do indeed exist and I certainly have a couple, gives the consumer a greater freedom of choice of features, 'visual appeal', functions, and often much nicer practical on-screen menu. A "matter of choice", and if someone subscribes, - they should be given that choice, provided they don't then pirate the service by sharing beyond the house or otherwise distributing.


You can record most of the Foxtel channels (with the exception of FBO, Mainevent and Adults Only) on any VCR, PDR or DVD-recorder. As the encryption that's currently being used has not been cracked,

The 'encryption' you discuss in this area is not NDS and you know it, or should, and it does affect that supposed ability for some. Macrovision.


You can't pirate Foxtel (except by paying for a 2nd STU and taking that to a different address - which is of course an illegal breach of your contract to Foxtel).

Explain TV 'pirate' as applied under applicable Commonwealth law, either as a criminal offence or not????


And that position is fair enough for most channels - but not for pay per view. The 3-6 months is reliant on the policy of the distributors. Look it up, they all have specific policies on when to release a title to pay per view.

Then it is the distributors and FTA negotiators that need a reality check. People want to make recordings and keep them, full stop. This is where a 'seeming' impass is borne - but is managed well by Select TV by subscriber onus, assisted by the proposed new legislation - be that all fair or not.


You've talked about piracy as well.
Again, explain piracy per above. I was asked a question as to 'how do I view this or that'.

I'll talk about piracy anytime I wish btw. I am not telling you how to pirate? by getting something for free. That is just not good for business which I don't wish tosee fail, but change and modernise - to catch up with more enlightened countries (not USA).


Nor do I, those changes sound perfectly reasonable.
Those changes are both - both workable and absolutely not. They *will* involve high court challenges on many topical fronts, from home entry in enforcement to technical detail. I see much end-user litigation in the next 5-10 years, and as a legal person, this is good.


I don't see how any of these "restrictions" affects law-abiding, contract-honouring customers.

Those restrictions exist, they are very real, albiet I argue with them mis-guided, and relate to the inability in relation to Foxtel and Austar, in using our own DVB compliant decoders, 'that' is market restriction. Do not tie this in with mobile phones - because we have the right AND ability to buy own own IF we want.

jokiin
28-05-2006, 04:51 PM
And what were you saying about double posts:eek:

Seriously though I'm sure you have some valid points but it would be nice if you could use the quote function when replying, without them your posts are very hard to read when you quote so many different points and I have to admit to not reading all of what you say as a result, not having a go at you, but it would make it easier if you quoted text to make it easier to read:)

Watcher
28-05-2006, 05:27 PM
I also have the IQ and I'm more than happy with it. My family and I easily watch more Foxtel programming than free to air and the funtions the IQ provide makes life a lot easier for all of us. It's well worth the $10.00 a month for what we use it for.

Orko, I'd be asking for a new box if was getting 1 in 6 fails. I very rarely get them (maybe 3 or 4 ever) and we'd record maybe half a dozen shows a day on average via the program guide and/or series link. Sometimes we record a dozen or more and no there's problems at all and that inlcudes 2 shows on at the same time.

Mot Adv-NSW
28-05-2006, 05:40 PM
I also have the IQ and I'm more than happy with it. My family and I easily watch more Foxtel programming than free to air and the funtions the IQ provide makes life a lot easier for all of us. It's well worth the $10.00 a month for what we use it for.

Orko, I'd be asking for a new box if was getting 1 in 6 fails. I very rarely get them (maybe 3 or 4 ever) and we'd record maybe half a dozen shows a day on average via the program guide and/or series link. Sometimes we record a dozen or more and no there's problems at all and that inlcudes 2 shows on at the same time.

That's it - it's all about *choice*, your happy with IQ and content I guess,then for you it's 'the right choice', my argument here is not to remove that, but to allow greater freedom.

I tolerate some of the content, but advocate the right to use my own gear. I also spend more time viewing C Band channels than I do my pay TV content. I want to see satellite decoders in retail shops outside mere Powerbarn.

I view much more 'real' news than ANY aussie with doemstic pay or terrestrial TV, by way of C Band or a larger Ku dish for news domestic and East Timor news feeds.

I wouldlike to see subscription cards sold as freely as re-charge cards, more the point 'card only subscription'.

WHEN I have the time. Such is life.

dvd_beetle
28-05-2006, 05:52 PM
By the way I would still expect "format shifting" books to be illegal, except if it's something like a computer game manual that you want in PDF format.

Mot Adv-NSW, I was never talking about macrovision - I was talking about NDS. Macrovision, has of course been cracked - but it's only used, as I explained, with the pay per view content (and adults only). By the way Aurora carries no NDS encryption, and anyone can tune in to watch it without paying for a Foxtel subscription as it's carried as a free service.

Foxtel has a product, and they can do what they want with it. Their customers are provided with a satellite or cable decoder as part of their package - why on earth should people be allowed to "use their own".

The limitations of the IQ such as the ability to automatically skip ads, or remove ads from recorded programs is made up by all the functionality that it does have. And of course it's automatically kept up to date with new software direct through it's satellite or cable connection - something that no competing product would do.

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