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Ext User(patrick@unknown (Patrick Young)
22-06-2006, 12:33 AM
Just got back from an interesting tech presentation Athol
and I went to on using hydrocarbon refrigerants in car A/C.
This was by Hychill: http://www.hychill.COM.AU

There were really no surprises as they pretty much told us
and showed us what we already knew.

There was also a demo where they had a car engine in a mobile
rack with full A/C set up on it which they then proceeded to
gas. Seemed to work well, IIRC getting around -2C at the vent.
Interestingly, folk have their own preferences on the exact
gassing method they use.

The fact the R134aCo folk tryed to shut down R290 was mentioned
more than once :-) R290 is no longer banned in automotive A/C
as of Sep 01 last year (Dangerous goods clase 242), except in QLD
where there is a licensing requirement. Break out those BBQ bottles
and start fixing your own A/C! - or can buy their product.

Swapping to R290 will also not void any vehicle warranty. R134a
and PAG oil is flammable and at the same time toxic, and is a risk
if it were dumped into the cabin of a motor vehicle. R134a is just
so wrong for so many reasons. And yes, that event does happen. I put
R290 (propane) in the 'lux and have been using for a number of years
now. Last year the low pressure switch shat it's seal dumping the
entire lot. I just simply opened door/window to let it all vent out
and was not blown up or otherwise injured/poisoned (and that is a
single cab 'lux ... while waiting in line at the servo too).

Anyway got some usefull freebies, information CD, training "how
to re-gas" video CD, leak detector pen (which I have an immediate
need for to troubleshoot me mates Smurf).

Hychill are getting involved with TAFEs to provide training in the
use of their products. As HC use if taken up I suspect the company
will do very well, might wanna buy shares.

There was this neat little see through cylinder sitting on the
desk with their product in it and a pressure gauge attached. Not
surprisingly it is a clear liquid as HCs are. Would have liked
one of those meself, interesting thing to put on desk at work
and have endless "WTF is that?" comments.

Gee that M5 tunnel is long (can't remember if I've ever used it
before) and closed at around King Georges Road on the trip home :-(
took alternate route through Ryde and 1.25 hours later and I
finally get home. Makes you realize just how huge Shiteney is.

I've decided I don't like the huge overhead orange signs with flashing
pointless messages about "watching out for motorcycles", "drinking kills
driving skills", etc. It's all too much information when in an area you
have never been before and trying to find someplace.

Anyway even if Padstow is a long way to get to and back, well worth
going to the event. Thanks for finding out about that and inviting
me, Athol.

--

--------------------------------------------
4x4 Hilux Auto Service Centre,
BP 106 Timbuktu,
Mali (West Africa)
Tel: 292 91 52
Specialising in turbo diesel and R290 aircon

Forever young, I want to be forever young
Do you really want to live forever, forever and ever

Feel the love generation,
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Feel the love generation,
C'mon c'mon c'mon c'mon yeah.
--------------------------------------------

Ext User(John_H)
22-06-2006, 09:23 AM
Patrick Young <patrick@hilux.ace.unsw.EDU.AU> wrote:
>
>The fact the R134aCo folk tryed to shut down R290 was mentioned
>more than once :-) R290 is no longer banned in automotive A/C
>as of Sep 01 last year (Dangerous goods clase 242), except in QLD
>where there is a licensing requirement. Break out those BBQ bottles
>and start fixing your own A/C! - or can buy their product.

You may wish to note that HyChill certainly don't recommend R290 for
automotive applications, owing to its high head pressures (much higher
than R12 and significantly higher than R134A).

Whilst R290 may work fine in many automotive applications it's
certainly not a drop in replacement for R12 or R134a and needs to be
treated as such -- ie with extreme caution, and at your own risk.
(Neither of which has prevented me from using in the past either.)

In a discussion with one of the HyChill principals a few months back
he was at pains to point out that HyChill has never tested straight
R290 in an automotive system.

HyChill's R12/R134a replacement has been marketed as HR12, but is now
called HyChill minus 30. It's a mixture of R290 (propane) and R600a
(iso-butane). R290 (previously HyChill HR290) is now marketed as
Hychill minus 40 as a drop in replacement for R22 (CFC). (R22 has
been used in domestic a/c's in the past and was still commercially
available until very recently -- and might still be.)

The HyChill site has a wealth of information for those interested in
hydrocarbon refrigerants but AFAIK it still hasn't been updated to
their latest product names.

The catch with their refrigerants for DIY use is the initial cost of
the minimum quantity (4.5kg), plus the price of their cylinder.
Around $300 all up IIRC. The HyChill cylinders are all liquid
withdrawal, which makes them a lot more expensive then BBQ bottles.

I've now been trialling HyChill minus 30 (previously HR12) for around
six months with excellent results to date in systems that previously
ran R134a. Anyone who's really serious will also flush out the PAG
and replace it with ROC oil (also recommended by HyChill).

>
>Swapping to R290 will also not void any vehicle warranty.

I'd bet it will void the warranty... however swapping to HR12 (now
called HyChill minus 30) may not. :)

As an aside, CFC's HCFC's (which includes R134a refrigerant) can
longer be purchased or used in the nanny state without a federal
licence (two required -- a purchaser's licence and a user's licence).
Hydrocarbon refrigerants are exempt from the licensing requirements
probably only because the legislators had never heard of it when they
drew up the legislation (which is specific to ozone depleting
substances).

In the good 'ol USA (land of the free) R134a is still sold in top up
quantities (disposable cans). The sale of refrigerants in diposable
containers has been banned here for nigh on twenty years.

--
John H

Ext User(John_H)
22-06-2006, 09:33 AM
John_H wrote:
>
>R290 (previously HyChill HR290) is now marketed as
>Hychill minus 40 as a drop in replacement for R22 (CFC).

Correction: A quick check with the HyChill site (which I should've
done before posting) reveals that R290 is the replacement for ammonia
(among others).

The R22 replacement is a different product (now called minus 40 I
believe). R290 will thence called HyChill minus 50... not minus 40.

--
John H

Ext User(patrick@unknown (Patrick Young)
22-06-2006, 10:33 AM
In article <ajdj92d01fu1fmli29gqkmn0b1gfdkqsbt@4ax.com>, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> writes:

> In a discussion with one of the HyChill principals a few months back
> he was at pains to point out that HyChill has never tested straight
> R290 in an automotive system.

I believe, IIRC John Clark did mention at the presentation that
it does, however their product is a blend. This raised questions
as to whether various components of the blend would leak out
quicker than others through hoses or connections. The answer was
that the components are kept mixed so well in an A/C system, and
are so miscible with each other it was unlikely so not really an
issue to consider when topping up one of their systems using their
product(s).

> HyChill's R12/R134a replacement has been marketed as HR12, but is now
> called HyChill minus 30. It's a mixture of R290 (propane) and R600a

Yup, they were a still a little all over the place with name change.

> been used in domestic a/c's in the past and was still commercially
> available until very recently -- and might still be.)

Yup, a mate has a small split system that uses it.

> The catch with their refrigerants for DIY use is the initial cost of
> the minimum quantity (4.5kg), plus the price of their cylinder.
> Around $300 all up IIRC. The HyChill cylinders are all liquid
> withdrawal, which makes them a lot more expensive then BBQ bottles.

Nup, they also have an aresol(sp?) can type thing that requires a
special fitting. One of the HyChill guys was quick to point out "if
the customer asks what type of fitting this is, tell them to simply
return the can and get a refund" to imply if they really don't know
what they are doing they should not be fecking with this.

> I've now been trialling HyChill minus 30 (previously HR12) for around
> six months with excellent results to date in systems that previously
> ran R134a. Anyone who's really serious will also flush out the PAG
> and replace it with ROC oil (also recommended by HyChill).

Yup. Interestingly they did not explain much about their oil or
flushing products. Did mention that an R290 flush compound did
tend to stay in vehicles for Ahhh Hmmm, quite some time :-)

>>Swapping to R290 will also not void any vehicle warranty.
>
> I'd bet it will void the warranty... however swapping to HR12 (now
> called HyChill minus 30) may not. :)

No, I think R290 would be acceptable too.

> Hydrocarbon refrigerants are exempt from the licensing requirements
> probably only because the legislators had never heard of it when they

There was mention of some sort of recovery only license IIRC for the
other stuffs.

> In the good 'ol USA (land of the free) R134a is still sold in top up
> quantities (disposable cans). The sale of refrigerants in diposable
> containers has been banned here for nigh on twenty years.

Was mentioned there that it is still possible to purchase R12 if
you knew where to look for it.

--

--------------------------------------------
4x4 Hilux Auto Service Centre,
BP 106 Timbuktu,
Mali (West Africa)
Tel: 292 91 52
Specialising in turbo diesel and R290 aircon

Forever young, I want to be forever young
Do you really want to live forever, forever and ever

Feel the love generation,
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Feel the love generation,
C'mon c'mon c'mon c'mon yeah.
--------------------------------------------

Ext User(John_H)
22-06-2006, 11:03 AM
Patrick Young <patrick@hilux.ace.unsw.EDU.AU> wrote:
>
>In article <ajdj92d01fu1fmli29gqkmn0b1gfdkqsbt@4ax.com>, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>> In a discussion with one of the HyChill principals a few months back
>> he was at pains to point out that HyChill has never tested straight
>> R290 in an automotive system.
>
>I believe, IIRC John Clark did mention at the presentation that
>it does, however their product is a blend.

They actually have a number of products, of which R290 (now called
minus 50) is but one.

The HyChill refrigerant recommended for automotive use is called minus
30 (formerly HR12), and is a mixture of R290 and R600a.

The fact that all their products, except R290, are blends is also the
reason why they use liquid delivery cylinders. You'd get a separation
of components otherwise; with the higher boiling points (ie butane)
being favoured if it were vapour delivery like a BBQ bottle. (What
might happen after it's in a system is purely academic, since any
change in the ratio of components would be accompanied by a loss of
total charge.)

This is also the reason why a BBQ bottle should be inverted for
charging... since it might also contain butane, as well as some high
boiling point nasties. However I wouldn't recommend trying it without
gauges (other than for the initial charge prior to running) due to the
very high risk of locking the compressor with a slug of a liquid. Nor
is a bit of butane necessarily a bad thing as it serves to reduce the
head pressure -- knowing how much you may or may not have is the
problem.

If small containers of HyChill minus 30 are available, and affordable,
they'd generally be a much safer, and better, option for the DIYer
than BBQ gas.

Anyone contemplating charging an R134a system (or one of those R12
systems without a sight glass) from a BBQ cylinder also needs some
method of measuring the charge. The disposable containers of R134a
sold in USA are intended to circumvent that requirement, being of
known weight.

I've been weighing the charge from BBQ bottles for some time now,
using R134a equipment, but it's unlikely a typical DIYer would have
the necessary gear.

--
John H

Ext User(The Red Krawler)
22-06-2006, 05:33 PM
> Swapping to R290 will also not void any vehicle warranty. R134a
> and PAG oil is flammable and at the same time toxic, and is a risk
> if it were dumped into the cabin of a motor vehicle. R134a is just
> so wrong for so many reasons. And yes, that event does happen.

R134a is flammable? When did this happen? I reguarly oxy solder in
environments with a (relatively) high concentration of 134a in the air and I
havent blown up (or burnt to a crisp) just yet....

Have you used 34m yet? Direct replacement for 134a, and more efficient. Same
blend as SP34E, but now mixed differently to prevent the "blend gasses"
problem of vapour leaks ruining the blend ratios.

Ext User(atec77)
22-06-2006, 06:23 PM
The Red Krawler wrote:

>
> R134a is flammable? When did this happen? I reguarly oxy solder in
> environments with a (relatively) high concentration of 134a in the air and I
> havent blown up (or burnt to a crisp) just yet....
>
We live in hope

Ext User(athol)
22-06-2006, 06:23 PM
John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote:

> R290 (previously HyChill HR290) is now marketed as
> Hychill minus 40 as a drop in replacement for R22 (CFC). (R22 has
> been used in domestic a/c's in the past and was still commercially
> available until very recently -- and might still be.)

Given that the HC refreigerants are apparently more efficient than
the CFC, HCFC and HFC types, it would appear that dropping R290 into
domestic A/C is actually a method of saving money on your power bill.

If I fit a split system A/C to the bus, this looks like the best gas
to go with. :-)

> I've now been trialling HyChill minus 30 (previously HR12) for around
> six months with excellent results to date in systems that previously
> ran R134a. Anyone who's really serious will also flush out the PAG
> and replace it with ROC oil (also recommended by HyChill).

I note that they are very cagey about their activities in QLD. :-)

> As an aside, CFC's HCFC's (which includes R134a refrigerant) can
> longer be purchased or used in the nanny state without a federal
> licence (two required -- a purchaser's licence and a user's licence).
> Hydrocarbon refrigerants are exempt from the licensing requirements
> probably only because the legislators had never heard of it when they
> drew up the legislation (which is specific to ozone depleting
> substances).

HyChill are pushing for a "recovery only" class of licence to allow the
recovery for disposal of R12, R134a, etc.. This would be good for
people converting to HC plus panel beaters and wreckers.

> In the good 'ol USA (land of the free) R134a is still sold in top up
> quantities (disposable cans). The sale of refrigerants in diposable
> containers has been banned here for nigh on twenty years.

Not that long ago, I saw mention of R12 cans being available in the
USA "if you knew where to look" or some such!

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Ext User(athol)
22-06-2006, 06:23 PM
John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John_H wrote:

>>R290 (previously HyChill HR290) is now marketed as
>>Hychill minus 40 as a drop in replacement for R22 (CFC).

> Correction: A quick check with the HyChill site (which I should've
> done before posting) reveals that R290 is the replacement for ammonia
> (among others).

> The R22 replacement is a different product (now called minus 40 I
> believe). R290 will thence called HyChill minus 50... not minus 40.

I thought my memory was going for a while there. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Ext User(athol)
22-06-2006, 06:33 PM
John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The HyChill refrigerant recommended for automotive use is called minus
> 30 (formerly HR12), and is a mixture of R290 and R600a.

This is also the only one that appeared to contain UV dye.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Ext User(athol)
22-06-2006, 06:43 PM
The Red Krawler <redkrawler@hotmail.com> wrote:

> R134a is flammable? When did this happen?

R134a combined with oil in mist form (eg coming from a leak) is flammable, as
is R134a under pressure combined with compressed air.

IIRC, they mentioned that an R134a car A/C has exploded in NZ because of
this.

R134a's acceptable exposure rating has been reduced in recent years.

> I reguarly oxy solder in
> environments with a (relatively) high concentration of 134a in the air and I
> havent blown up (or burnt to a crisp) just yet....

Have you tried breathing the vapour from heated (not burnt) PAG?

> Have you used 34m yet? Direct replacement for 134a, and more efficient. Same
> blend as SP34E, but now mixed differently to prevent the "blend gasses"
> problem of vapour leaks ruining the blend ratios.

Why would you use expensive imported ozone depleting substances when locally
sourced non ozone depleting substances with much lower greenhouse effects
and lower overall operating power input requirements are available?

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Ext User(Scotty)
22-06-2006, 06:53 PM
"athol" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1150965275.138129@smtp.idl.com.au...
> The Red Krawler <redkrawler@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> R134a is flammable? When did this happen?
>
> R134a combined with oil in mist form (eg coming from a leak) is flammable,
> as
> is R134a under pressure combined with compressed air.
>
> IIRC, they mentioned that an R134a car A/C has exploded in NZ because of
> this.
>
> R134a's acceptable exposure rating has been reduced in recent years.
>
>> I reguarly oxy solder in
>> environments with a (relatively) high concentration of 134a in the air
>> and I
>> havent blown up (or burnt to a crisp) just yet....
>
> Have you tried breathing the vapour from heated (not burnt) PAG?
>
>> Have you used 34m yet? Direct replacement for 134a, and more efficient.
>> Same
>> blend as SP34E, but now mixed differently to prevent the "blend gasses"
>> problem of vapour leaks ruining the blend ratios.
>
> Why would you use expensive imported ozone depleting substances when
> locally
> sourced non ozone depleting substances with much lower greenhouse effects
> and lower overall operating power input requirements are available?
>
> --
> Athol
> <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
> The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
> I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

Athol, Im curious. In my industry if I deal with
(install/maintain/remove/alter, whatever) Ozone depleting gases like Carbon
Dioxide, Halon (now illegal to install), FM200, Inergen and the like, I am
required by law to hold a Gaseous Licence. Do auto AC installers require
such licences? Potentially they have a greater risk than that I deal with
and from what Ive seen in the auto industry theres every manb and his dog
useing/installing the stuff.

Ext User(patrick@unknown (Patrick Young)
22-06-2006, 07:13 PM
In article <449a5893$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Scotty" <scoter1@warmmail.com> writes:

> Athol, Im curious. In my industry if I deal with
> (install/maintain/remove/alter, whatever) Ozone depleting gases like Carbon
> Dioxide, Halon (now illegal to install), FM200, Inergen and the like, I am
> required by law to hold a Gaseous Licence. Do auto AC installers require
> such licences? Potentially they have a greater risk than that I deal with
> and from what Ive seen in the auto industry theres every manb and his dog
> useing/installing the stuff.

Correct, there is a requirement for a license. IIRC HyChill want to make a
license for removal/recovery, however no ban on "anyone can install HC" (if
I understood it correctly). That is logical as anyone can bolt up their BBQ
bottle to their BBQ.

--

--------------------------------------------
4x4 Hilux Auto Service Centre,
BP 106 Timbuktu,
Mali (West Africa)
Tel: 292 91 52
Specialising in turbo diesel and R290 aircon

Forever young, I want to be forever young
Do you really want to live forever, forever and ever

Feel the love generation,
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Feel the love generation,
C'mon c'mon c'mon c'mon yeah.
--------------------------------------------

Ext User(John_H)
22-06-2006, 07:33 PM
athol wrote:
>
>John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've now been trialling HyChill minus 30 (previously HR12) for around
>> six months with excellent results to date in systems that previously
>> ran R134a. Anyone who's really serious will also flush out the PAG
>> and replace it with ROC oil (also recommended by HyChill).
>
>I note that they are very cagey about their activities in QLD. :-)

The situation in Q is probably a lot clearer than anyone (including
HyChill) cares to disclose (and it's all on the net for anyone who
wants to chase it up).

Hydrocarbon refrigerants are currently in the same category as LPG
fuel conversions on motor vehicles (they're also specifically
mentioned in the same act). Meaning that a/c systems charged with
hydrocarbon refrigerants need to be signed off by an approved person
and a certificate issued to obtain rego.

There's no law against selling the stuff however, and no licence
required to buy it (unlike ozone depleting substances).

Last I heard from HyChill they're hoping, and vigorously lobbying, for
a change of law.... same as NSW repealed theirs. Meanwhile loopholes
abound -- eg if the job's done interstate there's no redress in Q.

For off-road use, where many have been using lpg for years, an
inspection counts for shit since there's no registrations involved and
hence no certificate required (as also applies in the case of fuel
conversions).

There's yet another loophole (also applying to fuel conversions) which
I have no intention of revealing here. :)

Commercial installers are the only ones who have to seriously worry
about the law (which also worries HyChill since that's where their
largest potential market lies).

--
John H

Ext User(Scotty)
22-06-2006, 08:33 PM
"Patrick Young <patrick@hilux.ace.unsw.EDU.AU>" <patrick@unknown> wrote in
message news:jGeSNjXsXpoD@unknown...
> In article <449a5893$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Scotty"
> <scoter1@warmmail.com> writes:
>
>> Athol, Im curious. In my industry if I deal with
>> (install/maintain/remove/alter, whatever) Ozone depleting gases like
>> Carbon
>> Dioxide, Halon (now illegal to install), FM200, Inergen and the like, I
>> am
>> required by law to hold a Gaseous Licence. Do auto AC installers require
>> such licences? Potentially they have a greater risk than that I deal with
>> and from what Ive seen in the auto industry theres every manb and his dog
>> useing/installing the stuff.
>
> Correct, there is a requirement for a license. IIRC HyChill want to make a
> license for removal/recovery, however no ban on "anyone can install HC"
> (if
> I understood it correctly). That is logical as anyone can bolt up their
> BBQ
> bottle to their BBQ.
>
> --


But is Propane/Butane as bad released into the atmosphere as a few kgs of
Refrigerant? Some of the stuff we deal with like Halon is pretty damn bad
though, and we can release upwards of 300kgs of it of we **** up.

Ext User(John_H)
22-06-2006, 08:53 PM
Scotty wrote:
>
>Athol, Im curious. In my industry if I deal with
>(install/maintain/remove/alter, whatever) Ozone depleting gases like Carbon
>Dioxide, Halon (now illegal to install), FM200, Inergen and the like, I am
>required by law to hold a Gaseous Licence. Do auto AC installers require
>such licences? Potentially they have a greater risk than that I deal with
>and from what Ive seen in the auto industry theres every manb and his dog
>useing/installing the stuff.

Ozone depleting substances now require a federal licence (since last
October or thereabouts), or more correctly two licences. One to
purchase the stuff and another to use it.

Hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't ozone depleting substances and don't
therefore require a licence to either purchase or use.

--
John H

Ext User(Toby Ponsenby)
22-06-2006, 09:03 PM
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 07:32:12 GMT, The Red Krawler wrote:

>> Swapping to R290 will also not void any vehicle warranty. R134a
>> and PAG oil is flammable and at the same time toxic, and is a risk
>> if it were dumped into the cabin of a motor vehicle. R134a is just
>> so wrong for so many reasons. And yes, that event does happen.
>
> R134a is flammable? When did this happen? I reguarly oxy solder in
> environments with a (relatively) high concentration of 134a in the air and I
> havent blown up (or burnt to a crisp) just yet....
>
> Have you used 34m yet? Direct replacement for 134a, and more efficient. Same
> blend as SP34E, but now mixed differently to prevent the "blend gasses"
> problem of vapour leaks ruining the blend ratios.

Sounds like there's a potential fire hazard there - from Hot Cock.

--
Toby.
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

Ext User(Scotty)
22-06-2006, 09:03 PM
"John_H" <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n7sk92pso9qcqbq3j11mi5tgke7tmtiq56@4ax.com...
> Scotty wrote:
>>
>>Athol, Im curious. In my industry if I deal with
>>(install/maintain/remove/alter, whatever) Ozone depleting gases like
>>Carbon
>>Dioxide, Halon (now illegal to install), FM200, Inergen and the like, I am
>>required by law to hold a Gaseous Licence. Do auto AC installers require
>>such licences? Potentially they have a greater risk than that I deal with
>>and from what Ive seen in the auto industry theres every manb and his dog
>>useing/installing the stuff.
>
> Ozone depleting substances now require a federal licence (since last
> October or thereabouts), or more correctly two licences. One to
> purchase the stuff and another to use it.
>
> Hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't ozone depleting substances and don't
> therefore require a licence to either purchase or use.
>
> --
> John H

The sticker under my bonnet says that the refrigerant is Ozone safe, Im
assuming that theres those cars without Ozone safe products in em?

My licence includes ALL Global warming gases such as Carbon Dioxide, Im
pretty safe in assuming that all refrigerants come under that banner or am I
wrong?

Ext User(Toby Ponsenby)
22-06-2006, 09:23 PM
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:36:43 GMT, Patrick Young
<patrick@hilux.ace.unsw.EDU.AU> wrote:

> Just got back from an interesting tech presentation Athol
> and I went to on using hydrocarbon refrigerants in car A/C.
> This was by Hychill: http://www.hychill.COM.AU
>
> There were really no surprises as they pretty much told us
> and showed us what we already knew.
>
> There was also a demo where they had a car engine in a mobile
> rack with full A/C set up on it which they then proceeded to
> gas. Seemed to work well, IIRC getting around -2C at the vent.
> Interestingly, folk have their own preferences on the exact
> gassing method they use.
>
> The fact the R134aCo folk tryed to shut down R290 was mentioned
> more than once :-) R290 is no longer banned in automotive A/C
> as of Sep 01 last year (Dangerous goods clase 242), except in QLD
> where there is a licensing requirement. Break out those BBQ bottles
> and start fixing your own A/C! - or can buy their product.
>
> Swapping to R290 will also not void any vehicle warranty. R134a
> and PAG oil is flammable and at the same time toxic, and is a risk
> if it were dumped into the cabin of a motor vehicle. R134a is just
> so wrong for so many reasons. And yes, that event does happen. I put
> R290 (propane) in the 'lux and have been using for a number of years
> now. Last year the low pressure switch shat it's seal dumping the
> entire lot. I just simply opened door/window to let it all vent out
> and was not blown up or otherwise injured/poisoned (and that is a
> single cab 'lux ... while waiting in line at the servo too).
>
> Anyway got some usefull freebies, information CD, training "how
> to re-gas" video CD, leak detector pen (which I have an immediate
> need for to troubleshoot me mates Smurf).
>
> Hychill are getting involved with TAFEs to provide training in the
> use of their products. As HC use if taken up I suspect the company
> will do very well, might wanna buy shares.
>
> There was this neat little see through cylinder sitting on the
> desk with their product in it and a pressure gauge attached. Not
> surprisingly it is a clear liquid as HCs are. Would have liked
> one of those meself, interesting thing to put on desk at work
> and have endless "WTF is that?" comments.
>
> Gee that M5 tunnel is long (can't remember if I've ever used it
> before) and closed at around King Georges Road on the trip home :-(
> took alternate route through Ryde and 1.25 hours later and I
> finally get home. Makes you realize just how huge Shiteney is.
>
> I've decided I don't like the huge overhead orange signs with flashing
> pointless messages about "watching out for motorcycles", "drinking kills
> driving skills", etc. It's all too much information when in an area you
> have never been before and trying to find someplace.
>
> Anyway even if Padstow is a long way to get to and back, well worth
> going to the event. Thanks for finding out about that and inviting
> me, Athol.

Interesting times, these.
Here we have Hychill (and others before them who've now been welcomed
into the Canadian market with a red carpet!) trying to market a
product which is undoubtedly superior to the market incumbents
garbage.
Watch while Dupont and similar piss into GovCo pockets to bugger them
about.
Been done before - using mongrel TV companies, no less.
And then there's the inertia of stupid in the industry - all that free
piss at trade nights for how long?
Well, I'll tell you - from about when the CorpoRapists realized their
patents were going to run out and were unable to be 'refreshed' -
which is about when it was admitted - finally - that their products
were rooting the planets defences against UV:-)



--
Toby.
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

Ext User(patrick@unknown (Patrick Young)
22-06-2006, 09:43 PM
In article <n7sk92pso9qcqbq3j11mi5tgke7tmtiq56@4ax.com>, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> writes:

> Hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't ozone depleting substances and don't
> therefore require a licence to either purchase or use.

As always, don't try this at home unless you understand
what you are doing (experiment with butane in your own hands).

It does not require a fizix degree, however you need to know about
some simple chemistry, safety, and gas behaviour before you feck
with it.

All plausible stuff for a home handyman though.

--

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