build up oil pressure first

[Ext User(cocking my lovegun)]

A mate was saying that his last car (HQ V8) had a switch set-up that
didn't allow the car to start until it build up oil pressure. You turn
the motor over with the key until you get the pressure needle moving,
hit the switch and it starts. None of those horrible rattles at the
initial start-up and he swears it adds a multitude of K's to a motor.
Can anyone else comment on this and maybe suggest a simple way of
setting this up?

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"cocking my lovegun" <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:1151023277.823142.203740@r2g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
> A mate was saying that his last car (HQ V8) had a switch set-up that
> didn't allow the car to start until it build up oil pressure. You turn
> the motor over with the key until you get the pressure needle moving,
> hit the switch and it starts. None of those horrible rattles at the
> initial start-up and he swears it adds a multitude of K's to a motor.
> Can anyone else comment on this and maybe suggest a simple way of
> setting this up?

Because the oil-pressure warning light is operated by a switch inside the
oil-pressure sender and that switch is normally unoperated when OP is up to
a few psi at the oil-pump, it may help in doing what you want ie install a
relay with a set of contacts which are "open" when the relay coil is
energised and of course closed when the coil is unenergised. The coil would
be supplied from the OP-sensor, then when OP has reached sufficient pressure
to cause the sensor to go open removing the warning light earth, the relay
will also relax, being as it is connected to the sensor, causing the
normally open contacts to close, hence allowing volts which have been
supplied to the relay contacts from the "ignition on" 12v supply, to connect
to the ignition circuit.

So, you find a relay with a set of changover or break contacts. Place the
contacts in series with the wire to the coil +ve terminal. As to the relay
coil, connect one side to the same wire from the key *before* the previous
mod where the contacts were inserted in that line or wire. The other side of
the coil goes to the OP-sender or switch, which supplies and removes the
earth or -ve side of things.

Optional:
Some folks like to isolate circuits being operated from a common switch (the
OP switch in this case) by placing general purpose diodes in each wire to
the switch. IN4004s are ideal and cost 50c from Dick Smith/Tandy. The
cathode end (the end with the silver circle around it) of each diode is
connected to the OPswitch in this case.
Jason

[Ext User(athol)]

cocking my lovegun <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> A mate was saying that his last car (HQ V8)

Plastic or chev?

> had a switch set-up that
> didn't allow the car to start until it build up oil pressure. You turn
> the motor over with the key until you get the pressure needle moving,
> hit the switch and it starts. None of those horrible rattles at the
> initial start-up and he swears it adds a multitude of K's to a motor.

While subtracting from the life of the battery and starter.

> Can anyone else comment on this and maybe suggest a simple way of
> setting this up?

I'd suggest that the better solution is to have a type of engine that
doesn't suck at getting oil pressure up when starting. Lose the plastic
V8, problem solved. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(athol)]

D Walford <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> athol wrote:

>> I'd suggest that the better solution is to have a type of engine that
>> doesn't suck at getting oil pressure up when starting. Lose the plastic
>> V8, problem solved. :-)

> Any engine that always takes a lot of time to get up enough oil pressure
> at start up needs some serious attention.

Correct. Or disposal.

> Even plastic V8's shouldn't do it unless they are rooted.

Ahh. That's why I've never seen a plastic achieve decent oil pressure in
even double the time that it takes a chev... You're saying that each and
every plastic is rooted? :-p

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"athol" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1151046556.548835@smtp.idl.com.au...
> cocking my lovegun <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > A mate was saying that his last car (HQ V8)
>
> Plastic or chev?
>
> > had a switch set-up that
> > didn't allow the car to start until it build up oil pressure. You turn
> > the motor over with the key until you get the pressure needle moving,
> > hit the switch and it starts. None of those horrible rattles at the
> > initial start-up and he swears it adds a multitude of K's to a motor.
>
> While subtracting from the life of the battery and starter.

You should read the OMVL "how to start car hot on gas" part. That really
taxes the starter. The battery loves it, providing the alternator is up to
par.


> > Can anyone else comment on this and maybe suggest a simple way of
> > setting this up?
>
> I'd suggest that the better solution is to have a type of engine that
> doesn't suck at getting oil pressure up when starting. Lose the plastic
> V8, problem solved. :-)

Renault 10s always had bearing rattle on cold start-up. They used a scrw-on
filter,...not sure of the leak-back valve,...too long ago. Didnt shorten the
engine life. 94,000 miles and still ran quiet.

Jason

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"athol" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1151046556.548835@smtp.idl.com.au...

> I'd suggest that the better solution is to have a type of engine that
> doesn't suck at getting oil pressure up when starting. Lose the plastic
> V8, problem solved. :-)

Good advice :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"D Walford" <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:449b98e9$0$517$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-

> Any engine that always takes a lot of time to get up enough oil pressure
> at start up needs some serious attention.
> Even plastic V8's shouldn't do it unless they are rooted.

No, they shouldn't, but they did have one of the world's shittiest oil
pumps, and aren't exactly known for the quality of their lubrication system.

That said, it would be a pretty shitty engine indeed that suffered damage
because it took too long to get oil pressure after it was started.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Toby Ponsenby)]

On 22 Jun 2006 17:41:17 -0700, cocking my lovegun wrote:

> A mate was saying that his last car (HQ V8) had a switch set-up that
> didn't allow the car to start until it build up oil pressure. You turn
> the motor over with the key until you get the pressure needle moving,
> hit the switch and it starts. None of those horrible rattles at the
> initial start-up and he swears it adds a multitude of K's to a motor.
> Can anyone else comment on this and maybe suggest a simple way of
> setting this up?

Simple device available consists of a container (actually a 2Lb fire
extinguisher case) mounted inverted, linked to T junction on the oil
pressure switch.
The deal is that when the engine is running the oil gets into the
cylinder with air entrapped above it.
It naturally assumes the lowest pressure of the system, which is
locked into the cylinder when you turn off the engine.
So, when you hit the starter, the switch opens the oil circuit and
pressure is there while the engine cranks.
Latest mod on the things is a shraeder valve that allows you to blast
the oil out of the system when you change it out.

I have three of them here bought from the Yankees - haven't got 'round
to fitting them to the fleet yet:-(
Can't see that they're not a good idea.


BTW, Toyota 2H diesels has a system that wouldn't allow an engine
start (or run for that matter) with zero oil pressure. That was done
with an electrical circuit that managed the fuel supply via the oil
pressure switch.
That and a fabulous state of under-tune is why those mongrel engines
lasted for unbearably lengthy periods.

--
Toby.
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

[Ext User(Rainbow Warrior)]

"athol" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1151050828.572374@smtp.idl.com.au...
>D Walford <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> athol wrote:
>
>>> I'd suggest that the better solution is to have a type of engine that
>>> doesn't suck at getting oil pressure up when starting. Lose the plastic
>>> V8, problem solved. :-)
>
>> Any engine that always takes a lot of time to get up enough oil pressure
>> at start up needs some serious attention.
>
> Correct. Or disposal.
>
>> Even plastic V8's shouldn't do it unless they are rooted.
>
> Ahh. That's why I've never seen a plastic achieve decent oil pressure in
> even double the time that it takes a chev... You're saying that each and
> every plastic is rooted? :-p

Having said that, I haven't seen a Chev engine with a stock oil pump, all
seem to be aftermarket upgrades :)


>
> --
> Athol
> <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
> The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace.
> I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Rainbow Warrior" <pizza@sbs.com.fr> wrote in message
news:z9Pmg.14696$ap3.836@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> Having said that, I haven't seen a Chev engine with a stock oil pump, all
> seem to be aftermarket upgrades :)

That's mainly because the after-market units are cheaper than those
originally from GM :)

Aside from the name on the box, most Chev oil pumps are the same.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(cocking my lovegun)]

All fair comments though i'm uncertain why ppl refer to the old HQ 308
as 'plastic'. Surely it's better to turn a motor on the starter to
build OP ( even if it's only for a few seconds) than to start an engine
instantly on 900 rpm w/o maximum OP. Just a thought but it sound
reasonable to me.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"cocking my lovegun" <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:1151065157.237380.151730@y41g2000cwy.googlegr oups.com...
>
> All fair comments though i'm uncertain why ppl refer to the old HQ 308
> as 'plastic'. Surely it's better to turn a motor on the starter to
> build OP ( even if it's only for a few seconds) than to start an engine
> instantly on 900 rpm w/o maximum OP. Just a thought but it sound
> reasonable to me.

For any engine other than a brand new one, it'll make very little
difference.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Clockmeister)]

"cocking my lovegun" <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:1151065157.237380.151730@y41g2000cwy.googlegr oups.com...
>
> All fair comments though i'm uncertain why ppl refer to the old HQ 308
> as 'plastic'. Surely it's better to turn a motor on the starter to
> build OP ( even if it's only for a few seconds) than to start an engine
> instantly on 900 rpm w/o maximum OP. Just a thought but it sound
> reasonable to me.


It makes bugger all difference unless the engine is new.

[Ext User(John_H)]

Clockmeister wrote:
>
>"cocking my lovegun" <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>news:1151065157.237380.151730@y41g2000cwy.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> All fair comments though i'm uncertain why ppl refer to the old HQ 308
>> as 'plastic'. Surely it's better to turn a motor on the starter to
>> build OP ( even if it's only for a few seconds) than to start an engine
>> instantly on 900 rpm w/o maximum OP. Just a thought but it sound
>> reasonable to me.
>
>It makes bugger all difference unless the engine is new.

And probably makes bugger all difference to a new one unless it's been
assembled dry.

I'd seriously doubt if any car manufacturer bothers about oil pressure
at initial startup. The boundary lubricating properties of the oil
used during assembly (or what's left from the last time the engine was
run) are what prevents metal to metal contact.

In the days before pressurised lubrication systems some of the longest
lasting engines around only had splash feed. IIRC Chevs didn't have
pressurised systems until the late 1940's or thereabouts -- they only
had a circulating pump to feed oil to the mains at very low pressure.
Pre-WW2 Chev sixes were among the longest lasting engines of their
day.

The primary purpose of having high oil pressure, and hence high
circulation rates, has more to do with cooling than lubrication.

--
John H

[Ext User(OzOne)]

On 22 Jun 2006 17:41:17 -0700, "cocking my lovegun"
<geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> scribbled thusly:

>A mate was saying that his last car (HQ V8) had a switch set-up that
>didn't allow the car to start until it build up oil pressure. You turn
>the motor over with the key until you get the pressure needle moving,
>hit the switch and it starts. None of those horrible rattles at the
>initial start-up and he swears it adds a multitude of K's to a motor.
>Can anyone else comment on this and maybe suggest a simple way of
>setting this up?

Yep, easy comment here.
You're mates an idiot with absolutely no understanding of lubricants
and their properties.

Think about it.
Incredibly highly stressed race engines are just plain old started.
If there was even the slightest hint of some benefit from your idiot
friends ideas, do you not think that the engineers concerned with
making these engines last would initiate such procedures?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"John_H" <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kn7p92d4dq21h953h68i552setvh1p9hqs@4ax.com...
> Clockmeister wrote:
> >
> >"cocking my lovegun" <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> >news:1151065157.237380.151730@y41g2000cwy.googlegr oups.com...
> >>
> >> All fair comments though i'm uncertain why ppl refer to the old HQ 308
> >> as 'plastic'. Surely it's better to turn a motor on the starter to
> >> build OP ( even if it's only for a few seconds) than to start an engine
> >> instantly on 900 rpm w/o maximum OP. Just a thought but it sound
> >> reasonable to me.
> >
> >It makes bugger all difference unless the engine is new.
>
> And probably makes bugger all difference to a new one unless it's been
> assembled dry.
>
> I'd seriously doubt if any car manufacturer bothers about oil pressure
> at initial startup. The boundary lubricating properties of the oil
> used during assembly (or what's left from the last time the engine was
> run) are what prevents metal to metal contact.
>
> In the days before pressurised lubrication systems some of the longest
> lasting engines around only had splash feed. IIRC Chevs didn't have
> pressurised systems until the late 1940's or thereabouts -- they only
> had a circulating pump to feed oil to the mains at very low pressure.
> Pre-WW2 Chev sixes were among the longest lasting engines of their
> day.
>
> The primary purpose of having high oil pressure, and hence high
> circulation rates, has more to do with cooling than lubrication.

That was a lesson which I learned late in life. The pump supplies the oil to
keep it inbetween the two moving surfaces,..the pressure is unimportant at
this stage,..but if the clearances are wide,..more volume is needed to keep
replacing the oil which has been tossed out thru centrifugal force.

What I used to think, was that a rooted bigend could be sustained by putting
in mega psi of oil feed,..then the word "oil-film channeling" was brought to
my attention.....

The other myth was using heavy grade oil such as diff oil in worn engines.
An oil-rep said diff oil under engine temperatures, reduces its visco to
that close to engine oil....

I had a noisy bottom end Golf motor which I tried to quieten by whacking in
1/2 the sump volume with an STP type visco enhancer,..made bugger all
difference once the engine was hot. Got 80 psi when cold tho :)

As the mechanic at work used to say "you cant replace metal with anything
but metal".

Jason

[Ext User(patrick@unknown (Patrick Young)]

In article <kn7p92d4dq21h953h68i552setvh1p9hqs@4ax.com>, John_H <john4271@hotmail.com> writes:

> I'd seriously doubt if any car manufacturer bothers about oil pressure
> at initial startup. The boundary lubricating properties of the oil
> used during assembly (or what's left from the last time the engine was
> run) are what prevents metal to metal contact.

And there will be metal to metal contact anyway, it is expected for
the parts to wear in together. I was quite amazed at the quantity of
metal particles in me first dirt bike engine oil change.

--

--------------------------------------------
4x4 Hilux Auto Service Centre,
BP 106 Timbuktu,
Mali (West Africa)
Tel: 292 91 52
Specialising in turbo diesel and R290 aircon

Forever young, I want to be forever young
Do you really want to live forever, forever and ever

Feel the love generation,
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Feel the love generation,
C'mon c'mon c'mon c'mon yeah.
--------------------------------------------

[Ext User(Clockmeister)]

"John_H" <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kn7p92d4dq21h953h68i552setvh1p9hqs@4ax.com...
> Clockmeister wrote:
>>
>>"cocking my lovegun" <geoffharrison@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>>news:1151065157.237380.151730@y41g2000cwy.googlegr oups.com...
>>>
>>> All fair comments though i'm uncertain why ppl refer to the old HQ 308
>>> as 'plastic'. Surely it's better to turn a motor on the starter to
>>> build OP ( even if it's only for a few seconds) than to start an engine
>>> instantly on 900 rpm w/o maximum OP. Just a thought but it sound
>>> reasonable to me.
>>
>>It makes bugger all difference unless the engine is new.
>
> And probably makes bugger all difference to a new one unless it's been
> assembled dry.

If it made a difference at all it would have no long term negative side
effects anyway.

> I'd seriously doubt if any car manufacturer bothers about oil pressure
> at initial startup. The boundary lubricating properties of the oil
> used during assembly (or what's left from the last time the engine was
> run) are what prevents metal to metal contact.

Yep.

> In the days before pressurised lubrication systems some of the longest
> lasting engines around only had splash feed. IIRC Chevs didn't have
> pressurised systems until the late 1940's or thereabouts -- they only
> had a circulating pump to feed oil to the mains at very low pressure.
> Pre-WW2 Chev sixes were among the longest lasting engines of their
> day.

A fair bit before my time. What would have been the average life expectancy
of those engines, just out of curiosity?

> The primary purpose of having high oil pressure, and hence high
> circulation rates, has more to do with cooling than lubrication.
>

Yep.

[Ext User(John_H)]

Jason James wrote:
>
>The other myth was using heavy grade oil such as diff oil in worn engines.
>An oil-rep said diff oil under engine temperatures, reduces its visco to
>that close to engine oil....

He's absolutely correct.

I come across very few people, including oil company reps, who
understand the SAE oil classification system. There's also reems of
stuff been written in pseudo technical publications (including the
training manuals they serve up to apprentice mechanics) that's
complete and utter garbage. Mainly in an attempt to oversimplify what
isn't nearly as simple as most seem to assume.

Contrary to popular belief, the SAE numbers are not a viscosity scale
and were never intended as such.

Gear oil (the stuff used in diffs) also has a different SAE
classification system to engine oil, and always has. For example SAE
90 gear oil is roughly equivalent to an SAE 30 engine oil at normal
operating temperatures.

Some oils are marked in both systems -- eg Shell Donax TD (which is a
transmission oil) is 80W, 5W-30 (with the latter being the engine oil
equivalent).

The heaviest available engine oils are typically more viscous than the
heaviest gear oils at the temperatures that matter.

--
John H

[Ext User(John_H)]

Clockmeister wrote:
>
>"John_H" <john4271@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kn7p92d4dq21h953h68i552setvh1p9hqs@4ax.com...
>>
>> In the days before pressurised lubrication systems some of the longest
>> lasting engines around only had splash feed. IIRC Chevs didn't have
>> pressurised systems until the late 1940's or thereabouts -- they only
>> had a circulating pump to feed oil to the mains at very low pressure.
>> Pre-WW2 Chev sixes were among the longest lasting engines of their
>> day.
>
>A fair bit before my time. What would have been the average life expectancy
>of those engines, just out of curiosity?

A fair few owners claimed 100,000 miles plus without a major rebuild.
That's 160,000 km plus. By comparison a sv Ford V8 of the same era
would've been pretty much clapped out at 40,000 miles, and laying a
smoke screen to boot.

Not being subject to the same stresses as a modern engine they could
all tolerate a lot more wear though. They were also driven
differently. Like a lot of mechanics I've known, the old timers
didn't believe in revving their their engines unduly -- most would've
hit top gear by 20kph.

One of the reasons splash feed stood up so well is that in the days
before decent oil filters the shit in the oil didn't circulate as
often as it did in a pressurised system.

As you no doubt realise, modern engines owe most of their longevity to
decent fitration (air and oil).

--
John H