Tyres wobble at 100-100kph

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

Hi there, I wonder if it is within topic ?

Anyway I have this Toyota Starlet 1997 on which we have put 15" mags on, and
Hankook 802V (former H) tyres. All good and well. but after around
80,000-90,000k the tyres (then 2/3 tread) started to wobble. Shocks are new
and gas premium, bearings, steering alignment, BALANCE (of crs) all well -
done at Toyota dealership, they swear by it.

Still - 100kph and up, tyres wobble. It is not a permanent effect though,
so e.g. I can sit at 110 and nothing happens for say 20secs and then out of
nowhere the wobble starts, then if I take the speed to 90kph the wobble is
still there (but not lower than that), but then it goes away even if I am
again doing 100-110-120 even (yes I know, the Starlet CAN do that speed
:-) ).

Now I have put brand new tyres on the rims, but the same happens, What can
it be ?? I was told maybe transmission shafts (??) - there is not much else
around except the brake rotors. Would a so-called 'on-car balancing' help,
or is it just a scam ? I believe only one-two workshops do it in Bris and
one is Bob Jane (who I do not trust since they jacked up my car in the wrong
place and bent a panel underneath).

Any advice pls - is this a common prob with 'older' (>100,000) cars, or any
other common knowledge that I do not know about ?

Thank you

[Ext User(CyBorg 0091)]

AdvarP wrote:
> Hi there, I wonder if it is within topic ?
>
> Anyway I have this Toyota Starlet 1997 on which we have put 15" mags on, and
> Hankook 802V (former H) tyres. All good and well. but after around
> 80,000-90,000k the tyres (then 2/3 tread) started to wobble. Shocks are new
> and gas premium, bearings, steering alignment, BALANCE (of crs) all well -
> done at Toyota dealership, they swear by it.
>
> Still - 100kph and up, tyres wobble. It is not a permanent effect though,
> so e.g. I can sit at 110 and nothing happens for say 20secs and then out of
> nowhere the wobble starts, then if I take the speed to 90kph the wobble is
> still there (but not lower than that), but then it goes away even if I am
> again doing 100-110-120 even (yes I know, the Starlet CAN do that speed
> :-) ).
>
> Now I have put brand new tyres on the rims, but the same happens, What can
> it be ?? I was told maybe transmission shafts (??) - there is not much else
> around except the brake rotors. Would a so-called 'on-car balancing' help,
> or is it just a scam ? I believe only one-two workshops do it in Bris and
> one is Bob Jane (who I do not trust since they jacked up my car in the wrong
> place and bent a panel underneath).
>
> Any advice pls - is this a common prob with 'older' (>100,000) cars, or any
> other common knowledge that I do not know about ?
>
> Thank you

Friend had this type of problem with his car....,however it turned out
to be a pitman arm or ball joint somewhere....stuff knows why he asked
me,
I would never know unless I took it for a drift round the block and
give the wheels a wiggle.
Look for something similar if you have not done so already....if ou
have take it back to Toyota considering you let them near it,personally
I would never let anyone near the mechanicals of a car,they always
wreck something or change something which leads to the curiousity that
killed the cat.
Drive on a dirt road,one would never considering with this
fuss....after ten minutes you wheel alignment will be out from perfect.

[Ext User(Ron)]

"AdvarP" <advarp@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:44b3b62c$0$22123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u:

> Hi there, I wonder if it is within topic ?
>
> Anyway I have this Toyota Starlet 1997 on which we have put 15" mags
> on, and Hankook 802V (former H) tyres. All good and well. but after
> around 80,000-90,000k the tyres (then 2/3 tread) started to wobble.
> Shocks are new and gas premium, bearings, steering alignment, BALANCE
> (of crs) all well - done at Toyota dealership, they swear by it.

Wheel bearings or worn CV's?

[Who_am_I_?]

Do the wheels have hub rings in them ?
Most cars need them to centre the wheels on the hub. The hub should bear the weight of the car not the wheel studs.

Since most wheels are mass produced, they have a large center
bore to accommodate several different vehicles. If this is the case, it is recommended that you use a hub ring. Hub rings are hard plastic or metal ring that fits between the wheel and the vehicle. This centers the wheel perfectly on the hub ensuring that there is no run out when the wheel is installed on to the vehicle. Without hub rings it is possible to get vibrations even if the wheel / tire assembly is perfectly balanced.

Google Hub Rings for more info.

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

Hi, thanks for answering, yes the mags have hub rings on them - hard rubber
rings..


"Who_am_I_?" <Who_am_I_.2asxif@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote in message
news:Who_am_I_.2asxif@no-mx.phorums.com.au...
>
> Do the wheels have hub rings in them ?
> Most cars need them to centre the wheels on the hub. The hub should
> bear the weight of the car not the wheel studs.
>
> Since most wheels are mass produced, they have a large center
> bore to accommodate several different vehicles. If this is the case, it
> is recommended that you use a hub ring. Hub rings are hard plastic or
> metal ring that fits between the wheel and the vehicle. This centers
> the wheel perfectly on the hub ensuring that there is no run out when
> the wheel is installed on to the vehicle. Without hub rings it is
> possible to get vibrations even if the wheel / tire assembly is
> perfectly balanced.
>
> Google Hub Rings for more info.
>
>
> --
> Who_am_I_?

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

Hi I checked all that - it seems it is Ok :-( but thank you

"CyBorg 0091" <jjbruce@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152648339.070692.321400@m79g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
>
> AdvarP wrote:
>> Hi there, I wonder if it is within topic ?
>>
>> Anyway I have this Toyota Starlet 1997 on which we have put 15" mags on,
>> and
>> Hankook 802V (former H) tyres. All good and well. but after around
>> 80,000-90,000k the tyres (then 2/3 tread) started to wobble. Shocks are
>> new
>> and gas premium, bearings, steering alignment, BALANCE (of crs) all
>> well -
>> done at Toyota dealership, they swear by it.
>>
>> Still - 100kph and up, tyres wobble. It is not a permanent effect
>> though,
>> so e.g. I can sit at 110 and nothing happens for say 20secs and then out
>> of
>> nowhere the wobble starts, then if I take the speed to 90kph the wobble
>> is
>> still there (but not lower than that), but then it goes away even if I am
>> again doing 100-110-120 even (yes I know, the Starlet CAN do that speed
>> :-) ).
>>
>> Now I have put brand new tyres on the rims, but the same happens, What
>> can
>> it be ?? I was told maybe transmission shafts (??) - there is not much
>> else
>> around except the brake rotors. Would a so-called 'on-car balancing'
>> help,
>> or is it just a scam ? I believe only one-two workshops do it in Bris and
>> one is Bob Jane (who I do not trust since they jacked up my car in the
>> wrong
>> place and bent a panel underneath).
>>
>> Any advice pls - is this a common prob with 'older' (>100,000) cars, or
>> any
>> other common knowledge that I do not know about ?
>>
>> Thank you
>
> Friend had this type of problem with his car....,however it turned out
> to be a pitman arm or ball joint somewhere....stuff knows why he asked
> me,
> I would never know unless I took it for a drift round the block and
> give the wheels a wiggle.
> Look for something similar if you have not done so already....if ou
> have take it back to Toyota considering you let them near it,personally
> I would never let anyone near the mechanicals of a car,they always
> wreck something or change something which leads to the curiousity that
> killed the cat.
> Drive on a dirt road,one would never considering with this
> fuss....after ten minutes you wheel alignment will be out from perfect.
>

[Ext User(mark jb)]

Visit www.austarletclub.com

All the help you'll need. Free to join.

-mark

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

Wheel bearings Ok they say, will ask again abt the CV condition. Toyota
Service are strange people - others try to push stuff to you, these guys say
'she'll be allright' - that's nice, but sometimes I have to insist they
change something - so the same may go for the CVs.

Thanks for the advice. I wonder if anyone has tried the 'on-car balancing'
stuff.. although if the CVs are the prob then of crs that is of no use.

"Ron" <X101@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97FE483EB69E4mcgricenewsguycom@129.250.170 .91...
> "AdvarP" <advarp@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:44b3b62c$0$22123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u:
>
>> Hi there, I wonder if it is within topic ?
>>
>> Anyway I have this Toyota Starlet 1997 on which we have put 15" mags
>> on, and Hankook 802V (former H) tyres. All good and well. but after
>> around 80,000-90,000k the tyres (then 2/3 tread) started to wobble.
>> Shocks are new and gas premium, bearings, steering alignment, BALANCE
>> (of crs) all well - done at Toyota dealership, they swear by it.
>
> Wheel bearings or worn CV's?

[Ext User(Ron)]

D Walford <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote in
news:44b42b2c$0$489$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.
com.au:

> AdvarP wrote:
>> Wheel bearings Ok they say, will ask again abt the CV condition.
>> Toyota Service are strange people - others try to push stuff to you,
>> these guys say 'she'll be allright' - that's nice, but sometimes I
>> have to insist they change something - so the same may go for the
>> CVs.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. I wonder if anyone has tried the 'on-car
>> balancing' stuff.. although if the CVs are the prob then of crs that
>> is of no use.
>
> Have you still got your original wheels?
> Might be worth swapping wheels/tyres for the sake of eliminating them
> as a possible cause.

Yes, he could also swap the ones on it, front to rear and see if the
problem is still there.

Ron

[amber.2]

I had a set of yokohama's that did that about one third worn and became very noisy it was just the tread pattern of the tyre and nothing could be done.By the way how many km have these tyres done.

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"Who_am_I_?" <Who_am_I_.2asxif@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote in message
news:Who_am_I_.2asxif@no-mx.phorums.com.au...
>
> Do the wheels have hub rings in them ?
> Most cars need them to centre the wheels on the hub. The hub should
> bear the weight of the car not the wheel studs.
>
> Since most wheels are mass produced, they have a large center
> bore to accommodate several different vehicles. If this is the case, it
> is recommended that you use a hub ring. Hub rings are hard plastic or
> metal ring that fits between the wheel and the vehicle. This centers
> the wheel perfectly on the hub ensuring that there is no run out when
> the wheel is installed on to the vehicle. Without hub rings it is
> possible to get vibrations even if the wheel / tire assembly is
> perfectly balanced.
>
> Google Hub Rings for more info.

opinion:

I know that interference fit rims with the axle-boss will line up the studs
simply by spinning the wheel and that is a handy thing, but ultimately, the
wheel studs centre the wheel why virtue of their conical seat.

Having said that, spacers are a bad idea if the wheel is not supported by an
axle boss the the studs do have an unacceptable side-load.

The studs in an unsupported side-load situation above would have 2 vectors
of force,.one is axial to the wheel-stud due tightening of the nut, the
other at right angles to the stud which is the undesirable load.

Jason

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"AdvarP" <advarp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44b3b62c$0$22123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...

Vibrations that come and go at fairly long intervals, can be one or more
wheels either out of true or buckled, or one of the stub axles (where the
road-wheel actually bolts-up to) is bent.

I used to get the same sympton in a '73 Valiant. Didnt matter which wheels I
had on it, one rear axle had, at some time, been dropped into a large
pot-hole. A buckled steel rim, Mags dont buckle, will do the same thing ie
send a slow intermittant wobble thru the car which gets worse at some speeds
than other. Something to do with the dynamics and resonances at work.

Jason

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

The originals are long gone, they were some crappy narrow tyres - I lost
those a long time ago when I got the mags....

The mags also result in higher consumption, but they are a lot safer - I
never slip and can brake a lot better - I live up a mountain drive with lots
of curves :-)


"D Walford" <walford@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:44b42b2c$0$489$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> AdvarP wrote:
>> Wheel bearings Ok they say, will ask again abt the CV condition. Toyota
>> Service are strange people - others try to push stuff to you, these guys
>> say 'she'll be allright' - that's nice, but sometimes I have to insist
>> they change something - so the same may go for the CVs.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. I wonder if anyone has tried the 'on-car
>> balancing' stuff.. although if the CVs are the prob then of crs that is
>> of no use.
>
> Have you still got your original wheels?
> Might be worth swapping wheels/tyres for the sake of eliminating them as a
> possible cause.
>
>
>
> Daryl

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

Hmmm

actually when I rotate the tyres on the studs, i.e. 1/4 or 1/2 rotation on
the four studs the pattern seems to change slightly and get less / more...

I will get Toyota to again look at the axles, but generally they charge me
$50 and say they found nothing, very annoying - or just re-balance the
wheels for free - which does not solve anything.

In fact once the wheels have been 'carefully' balanced, this time at
Bridgestone as opposed to Jax Tyres and Toyota and the vibration appeared
less - but still there. I am kifdding myself most likely.

This car has had two accidents as well, one involved sliding sideways, but
still the wobble is there just the same :-) (car has been repaier by
insurance and checked by Bridgestone).



"Jason James" <home@work.1.0> wrote in message
news:44b54844@news.comindico.com.au...
>
> "AdvarP" <advarp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:44b3b62c$0$22123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>
> Vibrations that come and go at fairly long intervals, can be one or more
> wheels either out of true or buckled, or one of the stub axles (where the
> road-wheel actually bolts-up to) is bent.
>
> I used to get the same sympton in a '73 Valiant. Didnt matter which wheels
> I
> had on it, one rear axle had, at some time, been dropped into a large
> pot-hole. A buckled steel rim, Mags dont buckle, will do the same thing ie
> send a slow intermittant wobble thru the car which gets worse at some
> speeds
> than other. Something to do with the dynamics and resonances at work.
>
> Jason
>
>

[Ext User(AdvarP)]

Hi,

When I have put the original Hankooks on there was no prob, then the prob
appeared after a while, now I have put new ones on and the prob is still
there.

I have swapped tyres back / front, the wobble is slightly less. I have also
rotated the tyres on the studs 1/4 tyurns and that also made some
difference. So it could be the brake discs or Cvs ?


"amber.2" <amber.2.2at90h@no-mx.phorums.com.au> wrote in message
news:amber.2.2at90h@no-mx.phorums.com.au...
>
> I had a set of yokohama's that did that about one third worn and became
> very noisy it was just the tread pattern of the tyre and nothing could
> be done.By the way how many km have these tyres done.
>
>
> --
> amber.2

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"AdvarP" <advarp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44b5795c$0$25358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> Hmmm
>
> actually when I rotate the tyres on the studs, i.e. 1/4 or 1/2 rotation on
> the four studs the pattern seems to change slightly and get less / more...

I think that is an illusion. The stud pattern is unmovable on both the
driveflange as the 4 holes in the rim or wheel. When a wheel gets buckled,
the centre of the wheel where the stud-holes are remaines intact, but the
rest of the wheel gets bent out of true. It maybe a lot, as would happen in
an accident, or a little as in driving thru a pothole or sliding into a curb
or gutter of a road. The more the rim is bent, the more severe the symptoms.
The amazing thing is the rim can be out of true at the edge by 1/2 an inch
and will still run on the back of a large car with no apparent problems
until you get up to certain speeds where it starts to resonate.


> I will get Toyota to again look at the axles, but generally they charge me
> $50 and say they found nothing, very annoying - or just re-balance the
> wheels for free - which does not solve anything.

Dont go back to them. Ask around friends and neighbors for a mechanic they
trust and who doesnt rip folks off.

> In fact once the wheels have been 'carefully' balanced, this time at
> Bridgestone as opposed to Jax Tyres and Toyota and the vibration appeared
> less - but still there. I am kifdding myself most likely.

Next time you go to a tyre place, ask them to spin the wheel and check the
rim for "trueness". They can remove the cover off the dynamic balancer to do
this.


> This car has had two accidents as well, one involved sliding sideways, but
> still the wobble is there just the same :-) (car has been repaier by
> insurance and checked by Bridgestone).


If the wheels turn out to be true, the next thing to do is to have the
wheels spun *on the car* one axle at a time. This will rule out any stub
axle problems.

If the vibration is still evident, then its time for a good mechanic to
check the trueness of the drive shafts and any supporting hardware and
suspension.

Jason

[Ext User(Albm&ctd)]

In article <44b3b62c$0$22123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
advarp@hotmail.com says...
>
> Any advice pls - is this a common prob with 'older' (>100,000) cars, or any
> other common knowledge that I do not know about ?
>
Can it be reproduced with the car on stands with and without wheels?

Al
--
I don't take sides.
It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html