Meaning of different title "Justice" and "Judge"

[Ext User(Don Warnix)]

What is the different between the titles 'Justice Smith' and 'Judge
Smith' when used as a form of address.

I am thinking of this in the context of someone who would have risen to
become a supreme court judge and who may have had the titles Justice
and/or Judge during their career.

------

Secondly, can anyone comment of there is a difference in the definitions
above of Justice and Judge in:

Australia
South Africa
Canada

when compared to England


Thank you!

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"Don Warnix" <mail@mail.invalid> wrote in message

> What is the different between the titles 'Justice Smith' and
'Judge
> Smith' when used as a form of address.

This is a very interesting question. I phoned the High Court in
Johannesburg (at 09h10) and asked. I was put through to the library
(1st attempt). The librarian gave me the telephone number of one of
the secretaries to a judge (2nd attempt). I couldn't get hold of
her, so I phoned the librarian who gave me three more numbers. I
tried all three. Several times. Eventually, after 7 attempts I
found one who would answer her phone. She didn't know the answer,
but gave me the number of one of the clerks. Attempts 9 - 12. He is
not available as he is in court. He will phone me back. He hasn't
phoned me back yet, and I have made 12 further attempts through the
day to get him, trying at tea time and lunch time when he won't be
in court.

In a hurry, I tried the librarian at the Constitutional Court. Left
a message. Tried the Registrar. The girl who answered the phone
thought I was talking about a case. I didn't press the question. I
gather not the brightest Smartie in the box. I tried the librarian
again. And every single number listed for the Constitutional Court
judges. Only one of the phones was answered and the secretary
couldn't tell me the answer, but she referred me to someone else
whose phone remained unanswered.

Getting stubborn about wanting an answer, I then tried the Office of
the Government Communication and Information System in Johannesburg.
I asked for the Protocol Officer. He referred me to the Director
for Communications in the Department of Justice in Pretoria. The
number they gave me wasn't the person I needed to speak to and every
number she put me through to just rang and rang.

Now getting very stubborn I dialled the National Department of
Justice in Cape Town. No luck. The number has changed there. So I
dialled Parliament in Cape Town. After a long argument with someone
who told me there was no such title as "Justice" in South Africa
(and I asked her why all the judges were listed in the telephone
directory as "Justice" to which she responded that it was a Telkom
mistake), I finally got another number. Again the Pretoria
Department of Justice. There I was again given two possibilities,
one number of which stayed engaged and the other of which was never
answered.

At my 49th attempt to reach someone intelligent, I managed to get
the secretary of one of the judges. She explained it like this:
When one writes to a judge, or refers to a judge formally, the title
is "The Honourable Mr/Ms Justice Smith", but when one speaks
directly to a judge or is speaking about one relatively informally
then one calls him or her as "Judge Smith". She doesn't know why
and referred me back to someone mentioned early in the process, but
who never answers his phone. (Attempts 50 and 51).

My 52nd attempt, this time to the Department's legal expert in Cape
Town, a Mr Labuschagne at 021 467 1700 revealed that he is on
compassionate leave because of death in the family.

I myself am not happy about this answer, and I suspect that it may
have more to do with "Justice" being the title and "judge" being the
function, with "Judge" used as a title being a modern inconsistency.
This is, of course, simply guess work on my part. However, it is
now 14h00 and I have devoted more than 90 minutes actual time to
trying to find out the answer, during the course of which I have
left five messages. Perhaps one of them will come back to me.

In the interim, I will ask a friend if he knows and I may well try
the elusive expert that several people suggested I try. But I
wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for the answer.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Spizz)]

"Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:ft-dnUyLqPOAHI_YnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@is.co.za...
>
> "Don Warnix" <mail@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>
After a long argument with someone
> who told me there was no such title as "Justice" in South Africa
> (and I asked her why all the judges were listed in the telephone
> directory as "Justice" to which she responded that it was a Telkom
> mistake),

Priceless, absolutely priceless. I've got tears in my eyes and I think I may
have popped a stich or two....

Spizz



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ext User(Bob Dubery)]

Moira de Swardt wrote:

> I myself am not happy about this answer, and I suspect that it may
> have more to do with "Justice" being the title and "judge" being the
> function, with "Judge" used as a title being a modern inconsistency.
> This is, of course, simply guess work on my part. However, it is
> now 14h00 and I have devoted more than 90 minutes actual time to
> trying to find out the answer, during the course of which I have
> left five messages. Perhaps one of them will come back to me.
>
> In the interim, I will ask a friend if he knows and I may well try
> the elusive expert that several people suggested I try. But I
> wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for the answer.

Thanks Moira.

Now, why are surgeons referred to as "Mister"?

[Ext User(Urchie)]

On 21 Sep 2006, Bob Dubery <megapode@gmail.com> wrote:

> Moira de Swardt wrote:
>
>> I myself am not happy about this answer, and I suspect that it may
>> have more to do with "Justice" being the title and "judge" being the
>> function, with "Judge" used as a title being a modern inconsistency.
>> This is, of course, simply guess work on my part. However, it is
>> now 14h00 and I have devoted more than 90 minutes actual time to
>> trying to find out the answer, during the course of which I have
>> left five messages. Perhaps one of them will come back to me.
>>
>> In the interim, I will ask a friend if he knows and I may well try
>> the elusive expert that several people suggested I try. But I
>> wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for the answer.
>
> Thanks Moira.
>
> Now, why are surgeons referred to as "Mister"?
>

Heh!

[Ext User(Blue Heeler)]

Bob Dubery wrote:

>
> Thanks Moira.
>
> Now, why are surgeons referred to as "Mister"?


Because the profession started as mere hackers and cutters, usually
barbers or butchers with time on their hands and the ability to hone a
keen edge and not faint at the sight of blood nor cringe in the face of
pain driven screaming.

They were not to be confused with actual Doctors who after all were
learned folk.

Given the personality and attitude of some surgeons, one could be
forgiven for wondering if anything has changed..
--

[Ext User(gilleebee)]

Moira de Swardt wrote:
> "Don Warnix" <mail@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>
>> What is the different between the titles 'Justice Smith' and 'Judge
>> Smith' when used as a form of address.
>
> This is a very interesting question. I phoned the High Court in
> Johannesburg (at 09h10) and asked. I was put through to the library
> (1st attempt). The librarian gave me the telephone number of one of
> the secretaries to a judge (2nd attempt). I couldn't get hold of
> her, so I phoned the librarian who gave me three more numbers. I
> tried all three. Several times. Eventually, after 7 attempts I
> found one who would answer her phone. She didn't know the answer,
> but gave me the number of one of the clerks. Attempts 9 - 12. He is
> not available as he is in court. He will phone me back. He hasn't
> phoned me back yet, and I have made 12 further attempts through the
> day to get him, trying at tea time and lunch time when he won't be
> in court.
>
> In a hurry, I tried the librarian at the Constitutional Court. Left
> a message. Tried the Registrar. The girl who answered the phone
> thought I was talking about a case. I didn't press the question. I
> gather not the brightest Smartie in the box. I tried the librarian
> again. And every single number listed for the Constitutional Court
> judges. Only one of the phones was answered and the secretary
> couldn't tell me the answer, but she referred me to someone else
> whose phone remained unanswered.
>
> Getting stubborn about wanting an answer, I then tried the Office of
> the Government Communication and Information System in Johannesburg.
> I asked for the Protocol Officer. He referred me to the Director
> for Communications in the Department of Justice in Pretoria. The
> number they gave me wasn't the person I needed to speak to and every
> number she put me through to just rang and rang.
>
> Now getting very stubborn I dialled the National Department of
> Justice in Cape Town. No luck. The number has changed there. So I
> dialled Parliament in Cape Town. After a long argument with someone
> who told me there was no such title as "Justice" in South Africa
> (and I asked her why all the judges were listed in the telephone
> directory as "Justice" to which she responded that it was a Telkom
> mistake), I finally got another number. Again the Pretoria
> Department of Justice. There I was again given two possibilities,
> one number of which stayed engaged and the other of which was never
> answered.
>
> At my 49th attempt to reach someone intelligent, I managed to get
> the secretary of one of the judges. She explained it like this:
> When one writes to a judge, or refers to a judge formally, the title
> is "The Honourable Mr/Ms Justice Smith", but when one speaks
> directly to a judge or is speaking about one relatively informally
> then one calls him or her as "Judge Smith". She doesn't know why
> and referred me back to someone mentioned early in the process, but
> who never answers his phone. (Attempts 50 and 51).
>
> My 52nd attempt, this time to the Department's legal expert in Cape
> Town, a Mr Labuschagne at 021 467 1700 revealed that he is on
> compassionate leave because of death in the family.
>
> I myself am not happy about this answer, and I suspect that it may
> have more to do with "Justice" being the title and "judge" being the
> function, with "Judge" used as a title being a modern inconsistency.
> This is, of course, simply guess work on my part. However, it is
> now 14h00 and I have devoted more than 90 minutes actual time to
> trying to find out the answer, during the course of which I have
> left five messages. Perhaps one of them will come back to me.
>
> In the interim, I will ask a friend if he knows and I may well try
> the elusive expert that several people suggested I try. But I
> wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for the answer.

I asked my friend in forensics and he says
well a Judge is a formal position...usually District /Supreme/ Federal/ High
Courts...Justice is the term used as a title ...eg Justice Bloggs .

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"Bob Dubery" <megapode@gmail.com> wrote in message

> Now, why are surgeons referred to as "Mister"?

That one is actually simple because it is common lore. I have heard
the explanation before, and while I can't remember exactly how it
goes, it is something along the lines of a surgeon attending
someone, probably a royal, and being accorded the title "Mister" as
being higher than "Doctor". The reality is that most doctors and
dentists are only called "Doctor" as an honourary title anyway as
they have Bachelor degrees, much like the European custom of calling
all graduates "Doctor", while specialists who have earned a
doctorate by virtue of two years further study are still called
"Doctor" unless their specialist study was in surgery in which case
they're called "Mister". Your GP will probably be able to tell you
which royal etc.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"Spizz" <yep@okay> wrote in message
> "Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message

> After a long argument with someone
> > who told me there was no such title as "Justice" in South Africa
> > (and I asked her why all the judges were listed in the telephone
> > directory as "Justice" to which she responded that it was a
Telkom
> > mistake),

> Priceless, absolutely priceless. I've got tears in my eyes and I
think I may
> have popped a stich or two....

She was quite definite about the fact that there was no such title.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Peter H.M. Brooks)]

Moira de Swardt wrote:
> "Spizz" <yep@okay> wrote in message
> > "Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message
>
> > After a long argument with someone
> > > who told me there was no such title as "Justice" in South Africa
> > > (and I asked her why all the judges were listed in the telephone
> > > directory as "Justice" to which she responded that it was a
> Telkom
> > > mistake),
>
> > Priceless, absolutely priceless. I've got tears in my eyes and I
> think I may
> > have popped a stich or two....
>
> She was quite definite about the fact that there was no such title.
>
I loved the story of your quest as well! I must say that I enjoy such
quests very much - there's a perverse sort of fun in finally getting a
source that gives you the answer. I'll look it up in my OED when I get
home - though that may not give the South African usage (it is pretty
good at non-UK usage, but not perfect).

According to the Enneagram, enjoying this particular activity is a
give-away for the personality type number '5'.

[Ext User(Bob Dubery)]

gilleebee wrote:

> I asked my friend in forensics and he says
> well a Judge is a formal position...usually District /Supreme/ Federal/ High
> Courts...Justice is the term used as a title ...eg Justice Bloggs .

I understand.

My wife is Supreme Ruler Of The Household, Keeper Of Time and She Who
Must Be Obyed, but I address her directly as "Dear".

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"Peter H.M. Brooks" <Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:

> I loved the story of your quest as well! I must say that I enjoy
such
> quests very much - there's a perverse sort of fun in finally
getting a
> source that gives you the answer. I'll look it up in my OED when I
get
> home - though that may not give the South African usage (it is
pretty
> good at non-UK usage, but not perfect).

> According to the Enneagram, enjoying this particular activity is a
> give-away for the personality type number '5'.

I'm an 8. I like to hit home with a definitive answer in the first
or second call. I still haven't found a satisfactory answer.

My one and only judge acquaintance is in Bloemfontein where he
spends a great deal of his time at the Appeal Court. And I don't
like to bother him too much. We are only acquaintances, not
actually friends.


--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"Bob Dubery" <megapode@gmail.com> wrote in message

> My wife is Supreme Ruler Of The Household, Keeper Of Time and She
Who
> Must Be Obyed, but I address her directly as "Dear".

The anecdote which will be relayed to my date tonight. :-)
Incidentally, he's an attorney and may know the answer. I
deliberately chose not to phone him, so as not to have him think I'm
chasing him. :-) Which I am, of course. :-) Besides, it will
make an interesting topic of conversation for the long trip between
Johannesburg and the dinner/theatre venue in Midrand in Friday peak
traffic. But that's another story.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Abutor)]

"Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:ft-dnUyLqPOAHI_YnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@is.co.za...
>
> "Don Warnix" <mail@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>
>> What is the different between the titles 'Justice Smith' and
> 'Judge
>> Smith' when used as a form of address.
>
> This is a very interesting question. I phoned the High Court in


[cut]


ROFL


You sure went to a lot of trouble. There are people who can give you the
answer easily, they are called lawyers. It is their job to know, and if
they are good at their job they will become a judge too.

--
Abutor : to use a word incorrectly

[Ext User(gilleebee)]

Moira de Swardt wrote:
> "Bob Dubery" <megapode@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> My wife is Supreme Ruler Of The Household, Keeper Of Time and She Who
>> Must Be Obyed, but I address her directly as "Dear".
>
> The anecdote which will be relayed to my date tonight. :-)
> Incidentally, he's an attorney and may know the answer. I
> deliberately chose not to phone him, so as not to have him think I'm
> chasing him. :-) Which I am, of course. :-) Besides, it will
> make an interesting topic of conversation for the long trip between
> Johannesburg and the dinner/theatre venue in Midrand in Friday peak
> traffic. But that's another story.

Good luck with the date, Moira. The trick is to lead him on a bit (but not
too much), keep him interested enough to come back for more! Not something I
have ever been good at.


--
gilleebee

*go with the flow* ;-)

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"Abutor" <Abutor@Abutor> wrote in message
> "Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message
> > "Don Warnix" <mail@mail.invalid> wrote in message

> >> What is the different between the titles 'Justice Smith' and
> > 'Judge
> >> Smith' when used as a form of address.

> > This is a very interesting question. I phoned the High Court in

> [cut]

> ROFL

> You sure went to a lot of trouble. There are people who can give
you the
> answer easily, they are called lawyers. It is their job to know,
and if
> they are good at their job they will become a judge too.

"Lawyer" in South Africa is a very general term, encompassing both
advocates and attorneys. I asked an attorney who has also been
admitted as an advocate, one with more than thirty years of
experience in law, and he was unable to shed any light on *why* the
difference between the formal and the informal terms of address has
arisen, although he confirmed what I established.

Not true that people will know the origins of terms just because
they are good at their job. And it is most certainly not true that
advocates who are good at their job will automatically become
judges. Many of them won't make the trade-off of money for status,
while others enjoy what they do without having to be the decision
maker. Some attorneys and advocates become arbitrators, others
become small claims court commissioners, both functions which can be
fulfilled in addition to their work as attorneys or advocates.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"gilleebee" <writeozzieshowersinger@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:

> > The anecdote which will be relayed to my date tonight. :-)
> > Incidentally, he's an attorney and may know the answer. I
> > deliberately chose not to phone him, so as not to have him think
I'm
> > chasing him. :-) Which I am, of course. :-) Besides, it will
> > make an interesting topic of conversation for the long trip
between
> > Johannesburg and the dinner/theatre venue in Midrand in Friday
peak
> > traffic. But that's another story.

> Good luck with the date, Moira. The trick is to lead him on a bit
(but not
> too much), keep him interested enough to come back for more! Not
something I
> have ever been good at.

The date was quite interesting, actually, a disaster at the
organisational level, and muddling along at the personal level, but
the plottings and plannings of my personal life are probably not a
very interesting topic except to the women (we really are wired
differently to men). We were supposed to see the show tonight, but
tonight is a Jewish holiday, and it turns out that my date is
actually religious enough to want to celebrate the Jewish New Year
with family, but not religious enough to celebrate Shabbes on a
Friday night, so I went to considerable trouble to swop the tickets
for tonight for ones last night, with the attendant reshuffling of
my Friday night plans to Saturday night. Then the show was awful.
At least the traffic wasn't too bad and the dinner was good.

We did discuss the topic of "Justice" and "Judge" but got no
further.


--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Ext User(Abutor)]

"Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:x4OdnZfH_NYrWonYnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@is.co.za...
>
> "Abutor" <Abutor@Abutor> wrote in message
>> "Moira de Swardt" <moira.ds@wol.co.za> wrote in message
>> > "Don Warnix" <mail@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>
>> >> What is the different between the titles 'Justice Smith' and
>> > 'Judge
>> >> Smith' when used as a form of address.
>
>> > This is a very interesting question. I phoned the High Court in
>
>> [cut]
>
>> ROFL
>
>> You sure went to a lot of trouble. There are people who can give
> you the
>> answer easily, they are called lawyers. It is their job to know,
> and if
>> they are good at their job they will become a judge too.
>
> "Lawyer" in South Africa is a very general term, encompassing both
> advocates and attorneys. I asked an attorney who has also been
> admitted as an advocate, one with more than thirty years of
> experience in law, and he was unable to shed any light on *why* the
> difference between the formal and the informal terms of address has
> arisen, although he confirmed what I established.


What are you talking about? South Africa! Are you in the right newsgroup?
This post is showing in the Australian Legal group Aus.Legal.



> Not true that people will know the origins of terms just because
> they are good at their job.

I have no doubt that every law school student in this country is required to
know the different levels of our court system and what to call the people
working in them. Eg: a magistrates court has a Magistrate, and a county
court has a Judge. One is addressed as "Your Worship" and the other by
"Your Honour". These are the kind of things that must be known to work in
the legal system.


> And it is most certainly not true that
> advocates who are good at their job will automatically become
> judges.

I did not say Automatically.


--
Abutor : to use a word incorrectly

[Ext User(gilleebee)]

Moira de Swardt wrote:

> At least the traffic wasn't too bad and the dinner was good.
>
> We did discuss the topic of "Justice" and "Judge" but got no
> further.

But how is the relationship going? Is he still interesting?


--
gilleebee

*go with the flow* ;-)

[Ext User(Moira de Swardt)]

"gilleebee" <writeozzieshowersinger@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:

> > We did discuss the topic of "Justice" and "Judge" but got no
> > further.

> But how is the relationship going? Is he still interesting?

The relationship is going fine. He's very interesting. We share a
love of ballet, and he's busy discovering all the various theatrical
genres. I've known him for twenty five years or more, I used to
work for him,and we've always been friends. He's in the process of
getting a divorce so our friendship has moved from "just friends" to
"exploring possibilities". :-)

In January he asked me what I wanted for my birthday. I asked him
what he was thinking of. He said a CD. I asked for a specific CD.
Last night I got it. He finally ordered it from overseas for me.
:-) "The Jazz Album" - Shostakovich, conducted by Riccardo Chailly.
Fabulous.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.