Manual shift is now obselete? (mostly on sedans)

[Ext User(dooode)]

Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
more and more are converting to autos.

So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?

Some things I notice:

* When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.

* Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).

[Ext User(Blackbird)]

"dooode" <fujisan2k@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159065966.356807.219810@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.
>
> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans? Umm.. No
>
> Some things I notice:
>
> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride. Umm.. No
>
> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway). Umm.. Possibly
if you don't drive anywhere else.
>

[Ext User(the_dawggie)]

dooode wrote:
> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.

Following the US model I expect.

> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?

I should hope not, not that I ever have owned a sedan, or
would buy a sedan in the future - so it of no meaning to me.

If AutoCo in general dropped all manual models of 4x4s, I'd be
scratching various body parts and asking WTF?!?!

> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.

I think that is a matter of used to/experience with. I'm prolly not
very good at driving autos, and have found in the past to get a
kick in the arse change from the auto which I suspect is about
as good for it as dropping the clutch on a manual.

> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).

Again, depends what you are used to. The only thing about it
I find a PITA is that you have to plan when you take/put your
borbon & coke out/inta the cup holder ;-)

[Ext User(JD)]

dooode wrote:

> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.
>
> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?
>
> Some things I notice:
>
> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.
>
> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).

You're probably about right for the percentage buying new cars. The more
this happens the more it means that a manual transmission becomes a
significant anti-theft device, as fewer and fewer people can drive it - and
for the few stolen for onward sale, less saleable.

My personal view is that I would not pay extra for an automatic - they still
use more fuel for less performance, although the difference is getting
pretty small. But I suppose an automatic would be tolerable if doing mostly
city driving (I don't).
JD

[Ext User(John Henderson)]

JD wrote:

> But I suppose an automatic would be tolerable if doing mostly
> city driving

No, not even then. I drive automatics regularly, and can't
stand them. They're too often _not_ in the gear I want.

John

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"dooode" <fujisan2k@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159065966.356807.219810@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.
>
> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?
>
> Some things I notice:
>
> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.
>
> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).

Its relative I think. After owning 3 automatic cars in a row, including the
Cleveland which I *wish* was manual cause it has bags of torque meaning you
could almost forget to change down and get away with it,..I purposely bought
a manual Camry 2.2L sedan. It does mean more work, but it brings out every
available KW making it a more pleasurable car to drive with good economy.

These days autos need little work if looked after, for the life of the car,
but it also takes some of the fun out of hilly driving AND especially
effects overtaking where you usually have to hold the car manually in a
lower gear anywaym unless you want the flip back and forth from kick-down to
drive as you execute the overtake.

Jason

[Ext User(Athol)]

the_dawggie <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote:

> If AutoCo in general dropped all manual models of 4x4s, I'd be
> scratching various body parts and asking WTF?!?!

Jeep did so back in the '70s because they're much better off road than
a manual. They're safer for downshifting in steep terrain than pushing
in the clutch on a manual. The logic for continuous drive during
upshifting, torque multiplication, etc. makes manuals look as stupid as
they are unless the engine is too small for the job and you simply can't
afford the relatively minor parasitic losses of operating an auto trans.

IIRC, Jeep didn't make any manuals for something like a decade. Then
they started downsizing and chasing economy.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Ext User(cpu)]

> My personal view is that I would not pay extra for an automatic - they
> still
> use more fuel for less performance, although the difference is getting
> pretty small. But I suppose an automatic would be tolerable if doing
> mostly
> city driving (I don't).
> JD

I've encountered so many manual drivers who take off slowly from a standing
stop its SO frustrating when their vehicle stops accelerating only metres
from where they started. This of course slows down the automatic driver
affecting his fuel economy.

interestingly the forums at pulsar.org.au have readers quoting their fuel
economy is significantly better for auto than manual. Go figure.

Volkswagen's DSG technology shows current and future automatics is superior
to their manual counterpart.

[Ext User(cpu)]

"dooode" <fujisan2k@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159065966.356807.219810@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.
>
> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?
>
> Some things I notice:
>
> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.
>
> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).
>

Another important factor is in an emergency, what if the person capable of
driving the injured (to hospital) has little or no experience with manual?
Your life could depend on the available car (i.e. its transmission and how
easy it is to drive).

[Ext User(cpu)]

>
> Its relative I think. After owning 3 automatic cars in a row, including
> the
> Cleveland which I *wish* was manual cause it has bags of torque meaning
> you
> could almost forget to change down and get away with it,..I purposely
> bought
> a manual Camry 2.2L sedan. It does mean more work, but it brings out every
> available KW making it a more pleasurable car to drive with good economy.
>

it's a Camry for fuck sake. Toyota drivers are well known to drive 40km/hr
in 60k zones and put their brakes on when its clear 100metres ahead.

Oh, please.

[Ext User(Blackbird)]

"cpu" <postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:451637dc$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
>
>
> > My personal view is that I would not pay extra for an automatic - they
> > still
> > use more fuel for less performance, although the difference is getting
> > pretty small. But I suppose an automatic would be tolerable if doing
> > mostly
> > city driving (I don't).
> > JD
>
> I've encountered so many manual drivers who take off slowly from a
standing
> stop its SO frustrating when their vehicle stops accelerating only metres
> from where they started. This of course slows down the automatic driver
> affecting his fuel economy.
>
1. So how exactly do you know that the vehicle is manual?
2. How do you know it's not an "auto" driver who can't f*&king drive?

If 95% of people prefer auto's as the original poster makes out, it's likely
to be the second scenario. :-)

[Ext User(Katharine & Paul)]

I have a manual license.

My first car was an auto (XD Fairmont Ghia - try finding a manual one of
those!!!).
Then a column shift auto EA Wagon.
Then an AU2 auto.

I would have preferred a manual each time. But that was all I found when I
went looking for those cars.

Had a rental Corolla a few years back in a manual. Wasnt much of a car to
drive compared to the Falcons I have owned (what else would you expect of a
Corolla), but it did confirm that I prefer a manual to an auto.











"dooode" <fujisan2k@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159065966.356807.219810@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.
>
> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?
>
> Some things I notice:
>
> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.
>
> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).
>

[Ext User(Katharine & Paul)]

I purposely bought
> a manual Camry 2.2L sedan. It does mean more work, but it brings out every
> available KW making it a more pleasurable car to drive with good economy.


I drive auto Camrys at work all the time. And each time I think - gee I wish
this was a manual. The car feels as though the auto is sapping its power
out, it never feels right going uphill at highway speed. The fuel economy
is not great either. Dont see the point of a large small engined auto. But
I can see how the manual would rreally help.





>
> These days autos need little work if looked after, for the life of the
> car,
> but it also takes some of the fun out of hilly driving AND especially
> effects overtaking where you usually have to hold the car manually in a
> lower gear anywaym unless you want the flip back and forth from kick-down
> to
> drive as you execute the overtake.
>
> Jason
>
>

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"cpu" <postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:451637dd$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...

> Another important factor is in an emergency, what if the person capable of
> driving the injured (to hospital) has little or no experience with manual?

You do what any normal person *should* do and call an Ambulance.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Greg)]

"John Henderson" <jhenRemoveThis@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:4nmlg6Fb3c5mU1@individual.net...
> No, not even then. I drive automatics regularly, and can't
> stand them. They're too often _not_ in the gear I want.

Agreed. Even in the expensive 7-series I drive from day to day at the
moment, to the extent that I *always* drive in tiptronic mode, which
completely transforms the car.

I'd still prefer a manual though.

Greg.

[Ext User(TJ)]

"dooode" <fujisan2k@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159065966.356807.219810@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Seems like 95% of the people I know prefer auto these days and it seems
> more and more are converting to autos.
>
> So is manual totally useless these days on sedans?

No, not exactly. If you have a 1.3 or 1.5 Litre sedan then a manual is much
better to drive as you have total control of engine rpm and gearing. An auto
would be aweful with such a small engine.

> Some things I notice:
>
> * When you spend 20k+ odd on any new/used car and get a manual, it
> seems somewhat "unluxury". No matter how great a driver you are on a
> manual, auto almost always seems a lot smoother, seamless ride.

Yes, that's quite right. For most people it;s best to leave it with the auto
and most of them would have sequential mode to have more control if needed.

>
> * Manual in city traffic seems like hell (to me anyway).
>
Not really, as long as the clutch is not heavy and not too sensitive (with
the friction point).

[Ext User(the_dawggie)]

Athol wrote:

> the_dawggie <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If AutoCo in general dropped all manual models of 4x4s, I'd be
> > scratching various body parts and asking WTF?!?!
>
> Jeep did so back in the '70s because they're much better off road than
> a manual. They're safer for downshifting in steep terrain than pushing

I'd really be way off the side of the track and wondering why I
was rolled over on roof? You gunna trust a transmission to do
want you really need to do *right now*. No way for me. Ridden
dirt bikes too much for that.

I've never driven an auto transmission 4x4 off road and *really*
don't want to. Amusing to try though, as long as it was not mine.
I would be totally hopeless at it.

The understanding between the clutch pressure, what the (diesel)
engine does, and what is going on is fairly specific. As you know
from personal experience with me, there may be unsuspected tree
growth, and washaway turn around areas on way of the mountain
track, however you get that.

If my 'lux was an auto I would have been - "all over to you
Athol, get us outta this" ... seriously.

I've not tried an automagic transmission 4x4 and would be
fairly unsure of it, and need a lot of training, as I go fairly one
on one with what I drive - it doing something I didn't authorize
is not something I can deal well with. Off road, I'd be off the
side of the road no matter how much auto correction shite
was on it, I'd prolly try to fight it the other way around in
an emergency situation.

Parasitic losses don't really don't float me boat, I like low tech as
efficient as it can be - I think I'm still doing quite well, however
don't
have all the gadgets.

> IIRC, Jeep didn't make any manuals for something like a decade. Then
> they started downsizing and chasing economy.

That's Jeep - don't really think that later issue were ever into 4x4.
Hey,
Node is into 'em :-p

No, no offence to anyone, and don't kick the dawg, however have driven
autos for a great distance over the USA and Canada, however they just
*don't* work for me. Meybe for a tour mobile, where you put brain into
"auto" mode and look at the scenery.

It's a sort of "I really need to be in control of this, not something
else" feeling
along with "don't like drive by wire" and "need to fix this in my
driveway at
any time I wish because my arse is cactus if I don't" feeling.

No, I'd *never* own an auto trans vehicle, prolly never own a sedan
either, However, to each their own.

There may be be some good automagic transmission vehicles out
there, however does not work for me.

[Ext User(Rainbow Warrior)]

"the_dawggie" <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159096368.129572.55810@m7g2000cwm.googlegrou ps.com...
> Athol wrote:
>
>> the_dawggie <the_dawggie@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If AutoCo in general dropped all manual models of 4x4s, I'd be
>> > scratching various body parts and asking WTF?!?!
>>
>> Jeep did so back in the '70s because they're much better off road than
>> a manual. They're safer for downshifting in steep terrain than pushing
>
> I'd really be way off the side of the track and wondering why I
> was rolled over on roof? You gunna trust a transmission to do
> want you really need to do *right now*. No way for me. Ridden
> dirt bikes too much for that.
>
> I've never driven an auto transmission 4x4 off road and *really*
> don't want to. Amusing to try though, as long as it was not mine.
> I would be totally hopeless at it.
>
> The understanding between the clutch pressure, what the (diesel)
> engine does, and what is going on is fairly specific. As you know
> from personal experience with me, there may be unsuspected tree
> growth, and washaway turn around areas on way of the mountain
> track, however you get that.
>
> If my 'lux was an auto I would have been - "all over to you
> Athol, get us outta this" ... seriously.
>
> I've not tried an automagic transmission 4x4 and would be
> fairly unsure of it, and need a lot of training, as I go fairly one
> on one with what I drive - it doing something I didn't authorize
> is not something I can deal well with. Off road, I'd be off the
> side of the road no matter how much auto correction shite
> was on it, I'd prolly try to fight it the other way around in
> an emergency situation.

Actually a few hardcore 4wd'rs are swapping to auto's lately even in comps,
a couple of mates have them and once they get the shift kits adjusted right
they seem to fair ok offroad, down hill isn't that bad as modern 4wd's have
decent brakes anyways, and some just fit super low reduction gears to suit.
Uphill they have some advantages, and less harsh on the driveline but then
again you can't beat a manual for pure punch off the mark when you want it,
if you only got half a meter of run up distance.

Jeeps are actually the best offroad auto's I've driven, their 1st low gear
is better than some manuals for enginebraking downhill.

[Ext User(mathew@NOauroraSPAM.vm.bytemark.co.uk)]

In article <K1uRg.35244$rP1.26210@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Rainbow Warrior" <pizza@spc.com.nz> wrote:

> Jeeps are actually the best offroad auto's I've driven, their 1st low gear
> is better than some manuals for enginebraking downhill.

Even the auto Wranglers are pretty decent rock hoppers. If only they
sold 'em here in diesel...

[Ext User(mark jb)]

> I've encountered so many manual drivers who take off slowly from a
> standing stop its SO frustrating when their vehicle stops accelerating
> only metres from where they started. This of course slows down the
> automatic driver affecting his fuel economy.

I drive manual, and the transition from first to second gear does not slow
down the people behind me, even when my size 15s have lost the clutch and
i've had to find it again - not an uncommon event with matchbox pedals.

It's highly likely that in your quoted situation, it was an automatic driver
in a manual car, thus the complete incompetence. Every day I come across one
or more of these "drivers" (usually female. most men can grasp the concept
of a clutch, even if they dog-box it) and enjoy a good laugh at their
expense.

-mark