Say goodbye to EPGs by IceTV and PVRs?

[Ext User(GR)]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html

Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I always say.

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"GR" <gruber@gmale.com> wrote in message
news:452b8d18$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
>
> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I
> always say.

EPGs offer little more than a similar functionality to G-Code, in terms of
providing the ability to record shows with ease, so any argument on those
grounds are pretty shakey IMHO. As for IceTV breaching copyright by
compiling information which is in the public domain is a call only the judge
can decide, I guess.

Media Watch touched on similar ground this week when they did an item on
online sports websites acquiring their results from other sites. Legal?
Ethical?

[Ext User(Anthony Horan)]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:07:52 +1000, GR wrote:

> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
>
> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well.

Oh indeed they will. The ONLY reason they're dragging IceTV to court is
that they know full well that while they have a team of QCs on tap, IceTV
has virtually no money at all.

The justice system at work again. Fucked up, isn't it?

For the record, if anyone from Nine/PBL is reading this: screw you and your
1950s thinking. Kill IceTV if you must, but we'll still find ways of
generating EPGs from online sources, and none of your obfuscating
techniques can stop that happening. And guess what? If we miss a show
because we didn't know it was on because you didn't let us see the damn
program guide, we'll just "illegally" download it and cut you out of the
loop altogether.

Nine, stop waging war on your viewers. Because that's precisely what this
lawsuit represents.

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"Anthony Horan" <anthonyhoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d39hp09tu6ku$.1e15tpf866qj7.dlg@40tude.net.. .

> For the record, if anyone from Nine/PBL is reading this: screw you and
> your
> 1950s thinking. Kill IceTV if you must, but we'll still find ways of
> generating EPGs from online sources, and none of your obfuscating
> techniques can stop that happening. And guess what? If we miss a show
> because we didn't know it was on because you didn't let us see the damn
> program guide, we'll just "illegally" download it and cut you out of the
> loop altogether.
>
> Nine, stop waging war on your viewers. Because that's precisely what this
> lawsuit represents.

Amen. Fuck you, Nine. Digital TV could be a huge opportunity for you and you
treat it like the devil. You have no idea what side your bread is buttered
on.

[Ext User(Falco)]

TORRENTS TORRENTS TORRENTS



"Kevin Hendrikssen" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:452b9d13$0$1462$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> "Anthony Horan" <anthonyhoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1d39hp09tu6ku$.1e15tpf866qj7.dlg@40tude.net.. .
>
>> For the record, if anyone from Nine/PBL is reading this: screw you and
>> your
>> 1950s thinking. Kill IceTV if you must, but we'll still find ways of
>> generating EPGs from online sources, and none of your obfuscating
>> techniques can stop that happening. And guess what? If we miss a show
>> because we didn't know it was on because you didn't let us see the damn
>> program guide, we'll just "illegally" download it and cut you out of the
>> loop altogether.
>>
>> Nine, stop waging war on your viewers. Because that's precisely what this
>> lawsuit represents.
>
> Amen. Fuck you, Nine. Digital TV could be a huge opportunity for you and
> you treat it like the devil. You have no idea what side your bread is
> buttered on.
>
>

[Ext User(Jonathan Wilson)]

Whats interesting is that here in Perth, seven and ten have "guide
channels" whereas nein has actual EPG information in the digital signal. So
anyone with a PVR that can understand that information will be able to make
use of it and not require an online PVR for nein.

[Ext User(Richard Dale)]

> Whats interesting is that here in Perth, seven and ten have "guide
> channels" whereas nein has actual EPG information in the digital signal.
> So anyone with a PVR that can understand that information will be able to
> make use of it and not require an online PVR for nein.

The EIT EPG info is limited on Australian channels - only an hour or two
ahead of real time. No good for scheduling recordings.

I have 20+ days of data on ABC and ABC2 - great for planning ahead which
documentaries/programs I want to watch on ABC.

I use MythTV as my PVR...

Cheers,
Richard.

[Ext User(Ian Galbraith)]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:07:52 +1000, GR wrote:

> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
>
> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I always say.

Very good point in the second last paragraph, Nein could actually benefit
if they would embrace the technology.

Does anyone think they actually have legal grounds with the action? I
can't see how a schedule is copyrighted material.

It won't work anyway, there are now free EPGs out in the wild that I'm
sure hardware providers will adapt to use.

--
You can't stop the signal

[Ext User(Wally Anglesea™)]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:48:31 GMT, "Falco" <johnyfalco@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>TORRENTS TORRENTS TORRENTS

Amen. Channel BT allows me to timeshift further than nein or the rest
of them understand.


>
>
>
>"Kevin Hendrikssen" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
>news:452b9d13$0$1462$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> "Anthony Horan" <anthonyhoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1d39hp09tu6ku$.1e15tpf866qj7.dlg@40tude.net.. .
>>
>>> For the record, if anyone from Nine/PBL is reading this: screw you and
>>> your
>>> 1950s thinking. Kill IceTV if you must, but we'll still find ways of
>>> generating EPGs from online sources, and none of your obfuscating
>>> techniques can stop that happening. And guess what? If we miss a show
>>> because we didn't know it was on because you didn't let us see the damn
>>> program guide, we'll just "illegally" download it and cut you out of the
>>> loop altogether.
>>>
>>> Nine, stop waging war on your viewers. Because that's precisely what this
>>> lawsuit represents.
>>
>> Amen. Fuck you, Nine. Digital TV could be a huge opportunity for you and
>> you treat it like the devil. You have no idea what side your bread is
>> buttered on.
>>
>>
>
--

Find out about Australia's most dangerous Doomsday Cult:
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[Ext User(imorf)]

Kevin Hendrikssen wrote:
> "GR" <gruber@gmale.com> wrote in message
> news:452b8d18$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
>>
>> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I
>> always say.
>
> EPGs offer little more than a similar functionality to G-Code, in terms of
> providing the ability to record shows with ease, so any argument on those
> grounds are pretty shakey IMHO. As for IceTV breaching copyright by
> compiling information which is in the public domain is a call only the judge
> can decide, I guess.

that defence should fly. IIRC Telstra was unable to stop companies
selling the Yellow Pages on CD as long as they had typed it in by hand
rather than scanning/copying it. Of course that was before they put it
up on the web, so it was worth more.

[Ext User(Netmask)]

"Ian Galbraith" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1tqqxm0aeruds.261tn1hrd1xo$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:07:52 +1000, GR wrote:
>
>> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
>>
>> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I
>> always say.
>
> Very good point in the second last paragraph, Nein could actually benefit
> if they would embrace the technology.
>
> Does anyone think they actually have legal grounds with the action? I
> can't see how a schedule is copyrighted material.
>
> It won't work anyway, there are now free EPGs out in the wild that I'm
> sure hardware providers will adapt to use.
>
> --
> You can't stop the signal

and of course there are a number of other sources of epg info that can be
used - I have a feeling that Nein will pull out and strike an undisclosed
agreement with IceTV. If the judgement went against Nein and I'm not
convinced it's an open an shut case the consequence for Nein are far worse
than nobbling Ice - especially if the info is declared public domain. Owners
of PVR's with their own programming language like the Topfield and computer
based media centres will be able to devise home grown methods to insert epg
information that is beyond regulation. At the end of the day G-Code is in
the same position as is a paper publication like TV Week when you can sit
down on a Sunday morning an pre-program your recording schedule for either
your VCR (yuk!) or PVR or Computer TV card - it's all such a nonsense really
and I only hope the judge can understand the technical issues involved..

Already there are 'name, date and time' of program only epg sources
available that enable one to pre-program your recording schedule - no
copyright issue involved.

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"Richard Dale" <richard@rem0ve.premiumdata.th1s.net> wrote in message
news:452bf8fc$0$1437$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> Whats interesting is that here in Perth, seven and ten have "guide
>> channels" whereas nein has actual EPG information in the digital signal.
>> So anyone with a PVR that can understand that information will be able to
>> make use of it and not require an online PVR for nein.
>
> The EIT EPG info is limited on Australian channels - only an hour or two
> ahead of real time. No good for scheduling recordings.

Jonathan is referring to the fact that Nine Perth (not owned by PBL) offers
an EIT based EPG.

ABC in Sydney is currently trialling a three day EIT based guide.

[Ext User(fish.)]

In article <1160525569.165183@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
imorf@iformRemovethis.com.au says...
> Kevin Hendrikssen wrote:
> > "GR" <gruber@gmale.com> wrote in message
> > news:452b8d18$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> >> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
> >>
> >> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I
> >> always say.
> >
> > EPGs offer little more than a similar functionality to G-Code, in terms of
> > providing the ability to record shows with ease, so any argument on those
> > grounds are pretty shakey IMHO. As for IceTV breaching copyright by
> > compiling information which is in the public domain is a call only the judge
> > can decide, I guess.
>
> that defence should fly. IIRC Telstra was unable to stop companies
> selling the Yellow Pages on CD as long as they had typed it in by hand
> rather than scanning/copying it. Of course that was before they put it
> up on the web, so it was worth more.
>
>
>
>
>

What's the difference between manual entry and automatic reproduction?
if the end result is still unauthorised reproduction of a copyrighted
work?

I can understand that paraphrasing would be OK. but not exact
duplication of the words.




--
"What's that got to do with my KNOB?"

Bedknobs and Broomsticks

[Ext User(Kevin Hendrikssen)]

"fish." <fishcakes@tanksville.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f96eabc771f176798a556@News.Individual.ne t...
> What's the difference between manual entry and automatic reproduction?
> if the end result is still unauthorised reproduction of a copyrighted
> work?
>
> I can understand that paraphrasing would be OK. but not exact
> duplication of the words.

I've heard IceTV injects a bit of humour into their programme descriptions
on occasion.

[Ext User(imorf)]

fish. wrote:
> In article <1160525569.165183@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
> imorf@iformRemovethis.com.au says...
>> Kevin Hendrikssen wrote:
>>> grounds are pretty shakey IMHO. As for IceTV breaching copyright by
>>> compiling information which is in the public domain is a call only the judge
>>> can decide, I guess.
>> that defence should fly. IIRC Telstra was unable to stop companies
>> selling the Yellow Pages on CD as long as they had typed it in by hand
>> rather than scanning/copying it. Of course that was before they put it
>> up on the web, so it was worth more.
>
> What's the difference between manual entry and automatic reproduction?
> if the end result is still unauthorised reproduction of a copyrighted
> work?

not sure, a very legal issue, and one that would have caused much head
scratching within Telstra (if it still stands, the decision that is, not
Telstra who will crumble into a second tier telco hopefully). I think it
comes down to the information being public, and then the process is a
reverse engineering of the final product (ie not a copy and paste
duplicate), which in most cases is legal.

> I can understand that paraphrasing would be OK. but not exact
> duplication of the words.

may also have been a public need/monopoly issue as Telstra charged
thousands for a digital version (?)
perhaps a x-posting in aus.legal or whatever its called would help.

[Ext User(GR)]

"Kevin Hendrikssen" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message news:452b9227$0$1464$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

> EPGs offer little more than a similar functionality to G-Code, in terms of providing the ability to record shows with ease

Don't they also alert you to keywords, eg. shows with your favourite actor
and so on? They do in the USA. Maybe here they don't? In any case, that's
far superior to G-Code and can't be compared to it.

[Ext User(Malcolm Taylor)]

"GR" <gruber@gmale.com> wrote in message
news:452b8d18$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/nine-takes-on-icetv-over-eprogram-guide/2006/10/09/1160246043440.html
>
> Of course Nein will win this battle. Oh well. Australia sucks, as I
> always say.
>
>

In your subject line, are you suggesting that PVRs need EPGs to exist? They
are exteremely useful without them. There are other ways to program timer
recordings.

[Ext User(Matt McLeod)]

In aus.tv.digital Malcolm Taylor <taylormv@telstra.com> wrote:
> In your subject line, are you suggesting that PVRs need EPGs to exist? They
> are exteremely useful without them. There are other ways to program timer
> recordings.

All of which rely on keeping an eagle-eye on shifting TV schedules.
A PVR without an EPG is a glorified VCR. Which is useful, certainly,
but not anywhere near as useful as it could be.

Matt

[Ext User(Chock)]

"Matt McLeod" <matt@boggle.org> wrote in message
news:tog104-2k4.ln1@gaspode.boggle.org...
> In aus.tv.digital Malcolm Taylor <taylormv@telstra.com> wrote:
> > In your subject line, are you suggesting that PVRs need EPGs to exist?
They
> > are exteremely useful without them. There are other ways to program
timer
> > recordings.
>
> All of which rely on keeping an eagle-eye on shifting TV schedules.
> A PVR without an EPG is a glorified VCR. Which is useful, certainly,
> but not anywhere near as useful as it could be.
>

Exactly. Point in case was Nein suddenly dropping Sopranos from last
Wednesday night.


--
- Chock

Current killfile population:
1. Suxxie (and all of his aliases)
2. Temuchin
3. Anyone who claims to be a Group Moderator

Google is the Chinese government's friend

[Ext User(Matt McLeod)]

In aus.tv.digital Chock <chock@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Matt McLeod" <matt@boggle.org> wrote in message
> news:tog104-2k4.ln1@gaspode.boggle.org...
>> All of which rely on keeping an eagle-eye on shifting TV schedules.
>> A PVR without an EPG is a glorified VCR. Which is useful, certainly,
>> but not anywhere near as useful as it could be.
>
> Exactly. Point in case was Nein suddenly dropping Sopranos from last
> Wednesday night.

Or with the shows where you never know when they'll decide to
show it. I remember Trek used to be like that on Nine many years
ago, as was B5. And Angel/Buffy at various times on whatever
channel was running them that year.

If all you want is the major sporting events and the Footy Show
then it probably doesn't matter. If the stuff you like tends to
run outside prime-time then it makes a huge difference.

I won't be at all happy if IceTV goes down, their service plus
TED/S has made my Toppy almost as good as TiVo sounds. Not quite
there (it's too hacky) but much better than it is without the EPG.

Matt
(If Nine don't want third parties publishing EPGs, maybe
they should bloody well do it themselves!)