Metal Fabrication Qs

[Ext User(Michael C)]

I've been doing some metal work recently and have improved my amature skills
a fair bit but have a couple of questions

1. I've used 2 pieces of solid rod in a cross to add some strength. I've
welded them in but would prefer to make them bolt on. I've seen some
products where they flatten the end of this rod so they can drill a hole in
it. The same is often done where the rods cross at the centre. Is there a
tool that does this or an attachment that can be added to a press? Here's a
pic of what I have now:
http://mikesdriveway.com/misc/crossbrace.jpg

2. I find myself drilling a lot of holes that are close to the corner of a
flat plate and have specific dimensions of how far in. Is there something
you can get for a drill press that makes this easy to do or some way that
makes it easy. I'm doing it manually and it's taking ages to get it accurate
(and even then my accuracy isn't that great all the time :-)

Thanks,
Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b722e9$0$5748$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> I've been doing some metal work recently and have improved my amature
> skills a fair bit but have a couple of questions
>
> 1. I've used 2 pieces of solid rod in a cross to add some strength. I've
> welded them in but would prefer to make them bolt on. I've seen some
> products where they flatten the end of this rod so they can drill a hole
> in it. The same is often done where the rods cross at the centre. Is there
> a tool that does this or an attachment that can be added to a press?
> Here's a pic of what I have now:
> http://mikesdriveway.com/misc/crossbrace.jpg

A hammer & anvil will do it, or a press with the appropriate mandrels, but
you'd need to heat it to get decent results. As an alternative, you could
just weld flat or angled ends onto the bars that would allow you to have
bolt holes.

From looking at your picture it seems like you need to get leg access
through the frame, which would rule out the bracing going from "corner to
corner" where it would be most effective. In this case, I'd ditch the
bracing and opt for either a 6" wide section of 1/8" 3mm flat sheet
positioned where you have the bracing now, or as wide a piece of MDF as you
can use and still provide the leg access necessary that could then be bolted
to the frame securely and provide very significant strength.

> 2. I find myself drilling a lot of holes that are close to the corner of a
> flat plate and have specific dimensions of how far in. Is there something
> you can get for a drill press that makes this easy to do or some way that
> makes it easy. I'm doing it manually and it's taking ages to get it
> accurate (and even then my accuracy isn't that great all the time :-)

If your holes are located in the same place on different pieces of material,
then you can make a simple "corner jig" out of metal or even wood that bolts
to the drill press table and locates the material at the right place by
simply "snugging" the material up to it before you drill.

For drill depth, if your drill press doesn't have a depth gauge you can buy
drill depth gauges which are basically a small spring that fits over a
standard drill bit an secured with a collar. You simply secure the collar &
spring onto the drill bit leaving the required amount of drill depth
exposed, and drill into your material until the spring touches the surface.

A painted line on a drill bit can work also, as can some tape wrapped around
the bit as a marker, but how long it lasts will depend entirely on what
you're drilling, how sharp the bit is and how nicely the swarf comes out of
the hole.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:45b734e8$1@news.comindico.com.au...
> A hammer & anvil will do it, or a press with the appropriate mandrels, but
> you'd need to heat it to get decent results.

Thanks for the reply. I have access to a press, could I buy the appropriate
mandrel cheap enough? Or could I just buy metal already pressed? (I guess
the answer to that would be yes, somewhere :-)

> As an alternative, you could just weld flat or angled ends onto the bars
> that would allow you to have bolt holes.

I had thought about that if I can't press the ends.

> From looking at your picture it seems like you need to get leg access
> through the frame, which would rule out the bracing going from "corner to
> corner" where it would be most effective. In this case, I'd ditch the
> bracing and opt for either a 6" wide section of 1/8" 3mm flat sheet
> positioned where you have the bracing now, or as wide a piece of MDF as
> you can use and still provide the leg access necessary that could then be
> bolted to the frame securely and provide very significant strength.

The bracing I've got now is a stong as it needs to be, if I push the top
back and forward all the movement is in the frame at the bottom, either
twisting or lifting off the ground slightly.

> If your holes are located in the same place on different pieces of
> material, then you can make a simple "corner jig" out of metal or even
> wood that bolts to the drill press table and locates the material at the
> right place by simply "snugging" the material up to it before you drill.

I was thinking of something like that but where you could wind the distances
in and out in 2 directions. I could just make up various jigs as I probably
only have a few different distances.


> For drill depth, if your drill press doesn't have a depth gauge you can
> buy drill depth gauges which are basically a small spring that fits over a
> standard drill bit an secured with a collar. You simply secure the collar
> & spring onto the drill bit leaving the required amount of drill depth
> exposed, and drill into your material until the spring touches the
> surface.
>
> A painted line on a drill bit can work also, as can some tape wrapped
> around the bit as a marker, but how long it lasts will depend entirely on
> what you're drilling, how sharp the bit is and how nicely the swarf comes
> out of the hole.

That is a good tip, depth is an issue when drilling self taper pilot holes
in the wood.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.
>
>
>

[Ext User(atec)]

Michael C wrote:
> I've been doing some metal work recently and have improved my amature skills
> a fair bit but have a couple of questions
>
> 1. I've used 2 pieces of solid rod in a cross to add some strength. I've
> welded them in but would prefer to make them bolt on. I've seen some
> products where they flatten the end of this rod so they can drill a hole in
> it. The same is often done where the rods cross at the centre. Is there a
> tool that does this or an attachment that can be added to a press? Here's a
> pic of what I have now:
> http://mikesdriveway.com/misc/crossbrace.jpg

heat it bash it like the rest of us
if it's soft mallable rod just bash it on an anvil .
>
> 2. I find myself drilling a lot of holes that are close to the corner of a
> flat plate and have specific dimensions of how far in. Is there something
> you can get for a drill press that makes this easy to do or some way that
> makes it easy. I'm doing it manually and it's taking ages to get it accurate
> (and even then my accuracy isn't that great all the time :-)


well you might make a template , there is also a scriber carpenters
use with suitable adjustment it will follow the adge as set and scribe
a line , is that what you want ?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>

[Ext User(Poxy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b722e9$0$5748$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> I've been doing some metal work recently and have improved my amature
skills
> a fair bit but have a couple of questions

> 2. I find myself drilling a lot of holes that are close to the corner of a
> flat plate and have specific dimensions of how far in. Is there something
> you can get for a drill press that makes this easy to do or some way that
> makes it easy. I'm doing it manually and it's taking ages to get it
accurate
> (and even then my accuracy isn't that great all the time :-)

Using a jig is the best way if you are doing a lot of the same holes.
However if the position varies, assuming the edges of the plate are smooth,
a good method is to use a vernier caliper (a steel one).

Use the vernier scale to accurately set the caliper to the required distance
in from the edge of the plate and use the thumbscrew to lock the caliper.
You then lay the caliper flat with one jaw of the caliper flat against the
edge of the plate and tilt the caliper slightly so that the sharp tip of the
corner of the other jaw to scratches a line as you draw it along the edge.
Do the same on the other edge to make a cross, then use a centre punch to
make a point to centre the drill bit. Depending on what size hole you are
making, you'll probably need to drill a pilot hole.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"atec" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45b738b1$0$11213$61c65585@uv-55king-reader-01.melbourne.pipenetworks.com.au...
> well you might make a template , there is also a scriber carpenters use
> with suitable adjustment it will follow the adge as set and scribe a line
> , is that what you want ?

This is an excellent idea, thanks. Quite often I'm doing a hole at each
corner of a square plate so can measure all 4 holes in no time at all.

Michael

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Poxy" <pox@poxymail.com> wrote in message
news:4NHth.5739$u8.1970@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Using a jig is the best way if you are doing a lot of the same holes.
> However if the position varies, assuming the edges of the plate are
> smooth,
> a good method is to use a vernier caliper (a steel one).
>
> Use the vernier scale to accurately set the caliper to the required
> distance
> in from the edge of the plate and use the thumbscrew to lock the caliper.
> You then lay the caliper flat with one jaw of the caliper flat against the
> edge of the plate and tilt the caliper slightly so that the sharp tip of
> the
> corner of the other jaw to scratches a line as you draw it along the edge.
> Do the same on the other edge to make a cross, then use a centre punch to
> make a point to centre the drill bit. Depending on what size hole you are
> making, you'll probably need to drill a pilot hole.

I never noticed that little thumbscrew before, i've been holding them still!
I like the idea but I'm not too keen on using the vernier to scribe a line.

>
>
>

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b7421f$0$21086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...

> Thanks for the reply. I have access to a press, could I buy the
> appropriate mandrel cheap enough? Or could I just buy metal already
> pressed? (I guess the answer to that would be yes, somewhere :-)

If you're going to use a press you don't need anything elaborate for a
mandrel. Just something that will give you the desired shape, and
preferrably harder than the metal you're trying to deform so it at least
lasts for the life of the job.

If you're going to press the metal cold then you'll be in for a hard task
unless you've got access to a pretty large press. Cold forming even
relatively thin metal such as you're using can be difficult, and really
needs to be done in a hammer press or with a simple hammer & anvil.

> The bracing I've got now is a stong as it needs to be, if I push the top
> back and forward all the movement is in the frame at the bottom, either
> twisting or lifting off the ground slightly.

Okay.

It's hard to tell from the photo where it would really need to be braced. I
take it the thing is a race car simulator (love the pedals by the way :),
and if so most of the weight bearing will be the monitor shelf. Corner to
corner diagonal bracing on a couple of sides at right angles to each other
always works well.

> I was thinking of something like that but where you could wind the
> distances in and out in 2 directions. I could just make up various jigs as
> I probably only have a few different distances.

If you have different hole locations it gets more complicated obviously, but
not much more.

I have a vice stop on the table of my milling machine which is basically a
chunk of aluminium with a hole in through the top that holds a steel rod,
and the rod is secured into the ally with a bolt through a threaded hole.
The position of the rod can be changed easily by simply losening the bolt
and sliding the rod in and out to suit. The idea behind it is that if you're
doing repitition work you set the rod length once to suit your mark, and
then leave it set for all the other pieces you have to do.

Using this idea, it wouldn't be too tough to make a right angled piece of
something with a bolt (or two) on each side that could be easily adjusted to
suit your demands.

> That is a good tip, depth is an issue when drilling self taper pilot holes
> in the wood.

If you're only doing small stuff like that, then just throw a short drill
bit into the chuck leaving only the depth you want exposed, and drill until
the chuck jaws just touch the surface. If you're drilling with a pistol
drill and don't have a short bit (or don't want to break & resharpen one),
then securely tape a steel rod (or some such) to the side of the drill body
in like with the drill bit itself to use as a "stop".

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Poxy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b74e98$0$21439$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> "Poxy" <pox@poxymail.com> wrote in message
> news:4NHth.5739$u8.1970@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > Using a jig is the best way if you are doing a lot of the same holes.
> > However if the position varies, assuming the edges of the plate are
> > smooth,
> > a good method is to use a vernier caliper (a steel one).
> >
> > Use the vernier scale to accurately set the caliper to the required
> > distance
> > in from the edge of the plate and use the thumbscrew to lock the
caliper.
> > You then lay the caliper flat with one jaw of the caliper flat against
the
> > edge of the plate and tilt the caliper slightly so that the sharp tip of
> > the
> > corner of the other jaw to scratches a line as you draw it along the
edge.
> > Do the same on the other edge to make a cross, then use a centre punch
to
> > make a point to centre the drill bit. Depending on what size hole you
are
> > making, you'll probably need to drill a pilot hole.
>
> I never noticed that little thumbscrew before, i've been holding them
still!
> I like the idea but I'm not too keen on using the vernier to scribe a
line.

Fair enough - I've been doing it for a long time with the same caliper with
no ill effects, admittedly a lot of the time with aluminium, but also with
mild steel - you don't need to scribe a particularly heavy line, only enough
to line up the punch. I find it a very handy trick for doing precise work.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Poxy" <pox@poxymail.com> wrote in message
news:khJth.5783$u8.3659@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Fair enough - I've been doing it for a long time with the same caliper
> with
> no ill effects, admittedly a lot of the time with aluminium, but also with
> mild steel - you don't need to scribe a particularly heavy line, only
> enough
> to line up the punch. I find it a very handy trick for doing precise work.

I can see what you mean, it's unlikely to cause a problem. I can be a
perfectionist with my belongings at times. On the other hand the verniers
only cost $50 and it would give me the perfect measurement...
>
>
>

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:45b754bb$1@news.comindico.com.au...
> It's hard to tell from the photo where it would really need to be braced.
> I take it the thing is a race car simulator (love the pedals by the way
> :),

I'm pretty happy with them besided the brake working more like a clutch, you
need to push it to the floor to get full braking. I need to set it up so I
can learn how to heel toe as I'm over a second a lap slower with automatical
thottle blipping turned off. Because the brake goes to the floor it makes it
difficult to align the accelerator with the brake. You can see the brake is
a fair way closer to the driver but I still don't think it's enough.

> and if so most of the weight bearing will be the monitor shelf. Corner to
> corner diagonal bracing on a couple of sides at right angles to each other
> always works well.

We live in the age of LCDs :-) The main force is likely to be the driver
turning the wheel.

> If you're only doing small stuff like that, then just throw a short drill
> bit into the chuck leaving only the depth you want exposed, and drill
> until the chuck jaws just touch the surface. If you're drilling with a
> pistol drill and don't have a short bit (or don't want to break &
> resharpen one), then securely tape a steel rod (or some such) to the side
> of the drill body in like with the drill bit itself to use as a "stop".

I've got plenty of broken drill bits, especially the small ones :-) I can
never get them to sharpen that welll though. Do they lose their hardening or
something?

Michael

[Ext User(atec)]

Michael C wrote:
> "Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:45b754bb$1@news.comindico.com.au...
>> It's hard to tell from the photo where it would really need to be braced.
>> I take it the thing is a race car simulator (love the pedals by the way
>> :),
>
> I'm pretty happy with them besided the brake working more like a clutch, you
> need to push it to the floor to get full braking.

sounds like you need to alter somethings
I need to set it up so I
> can learn how to heel toe as I'm over a second a lap slower with automatical
> thottle blipping turned off. Because the brake goes to the floor it makes it
> difficult to align the accelerator with the brake. You can see the brake is
> a fair way closer to the driver but I still don't think it's enough.
sounds like you need to align some stuff
I have installed quite a few computer race cars and this was a
problem until the design was made more realistic , and at 6k a hit so it
should be
>
>> and if so most of the weight bearing will be the monitor shelf. Corner to
>> corner diagonal bracing on a couple of sides at right angles to each other
>> always works well.
>
> We live in the age of LCDs :-) The main force is likely to be the driver
> turning the wheel.
>
>> If you're only doing small stuff like that, then just throw a short drill
>> bit into the chuck leaving only the depth you want exposed, and drill
>> until the chuck jaws just touch the surface. If you're drilling with a
>> pistol drill and don't have a short bit (or don't want to break &
>> resharpen one), then securely tape a steel rod (or some such) to the side
>> of the drill body in like with the drill bit itself to use as a "stop".
>
> I've got plenty of broken drill bits, especially the small ones :-) I can
> never get them to sharpen that welll though. Do they lose their hardening or
> something?
no , if you cant get it right then buy a jig until you can
( I can so you might be able to)
>
> Michael
>
>

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b7e1d5$0$9776$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...

> I've got plenty of broken drill bits, especially the small ones :-) I can
> never get them to sharpen that welll though. Do they lose their hardening
> or something?

Sharpening drill bits *properly* is a bit of an art form that entire books
have been written about, and if it's something you're not familiar with it
can take some time to master. I've got a mate who can sharpen drill bits by
hand to a better finish than most new ones, but he learned that skill by
being an apprentice Fitter & Turner for GMH in Port Melbourne and for his
entire first year his job was sitting on a stool in front of a grinder
sharpening every drill bit in the place :)

This article here will give you a rough idea, and it shouldn't take you too
long to get reasonably sharp bits

http://www.woodcraft.com/articles.aspx?articleid=267

The most important thing to remember when sharpening drills (or any other
cutting tool) is to keep it cool by dipping it in water as you go. Avoid
turning the metal blue as you grind, or the cutting edge will be lost almost
as soon as you start to drill.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(John McKenzie)]

Michael C wrote:
>
>
> I've got plenty of broken drill bits, especially the small ones :-) I can
> never get them to sharpen that welll though. Do they lose their hardening or
> something?

I learned how to sharpen them. Then at tradeschool, they 'taught' me the
'right' way. To pass I had to demonstrate their method, and they always
worked like 55year old italian brickies labourers (i.e. they didn't). I
ended up managing to talk to one teacher who had the attitude of 'proof
of the pudding is in the tasting' and let me do it my way and as long as
it drilled he passed.

Generally it can be done in one smooth arcing motion per side, the main
difference is I swing it into the grinder, so the cutting tip/edge is
last to hit the grinder. teh way they taught was to start there and
angle the tip up and away to cut the trailing section. That worked for
some, but I could never get it to work for me. Maybe try that (and if
that's as clear as mud, I'll try and get a short video of it)

--
John McKenzie

tosspam@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@earthlink.com
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[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:45b7ef6f$1@news.comindico.com.au...
> http://www.woodcraft.com/articles.aspx?articleid=267
>
> The most important thing to remember when sharpening drills (or any other
> cutting tool) is to keep it cool by dipping it in water as you go. Avoid
> turning the metal blue as you grind, or the cutting edge will be lost
> almost as soon as you start to drill.

That likely a big part of why it's not working for me. I've got them going
blue all over the place. :-) Quite often I can get them to drill again but
not for long.

Michael

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"John McKenzie" <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:45B7F0F1.216E@alphalink.com.au...
> I learned how to sharpen them. Then at tradeschool, they 'taught' me the
> 'right' way. To pass I had to demonstrate their method, and they always
> worked like 55year old italian brickies labourers (i.e. they didn't). I
> ended up managing to talk to one teacher who had the attitude of 'proof
> of the pudding is in the tasting' and let me do it my way and as long as
> it drilled he passed.
>
> Generally it can be done in one smooth arcing motion per side, the main
> difference is I swing it into the grinder, so the cutting tip/edge is
> last to hit the grinder. teh way they taught was to start there and
> angle the tip up and away to cut the trailing section. That worked for
> some, but I could never get it to work for me. Maybe try that (and if
> that's as clear as mud, I'll try and get a short video of it)

Thanks for the tips, I'll give it a go. I'm working with the additional
difficulty of using an angle grinder.


>
> --
> John McKenzie
>
> tosspam@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@earthlink.com
> abuse@aol.com vice.president@whitehouse.gov president@whitehouse.gov
> sweep.day@accc.gov.au uce@ftc.gov admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost
> abuse@cia.gov If you've got a blacklist,I want to be on it $USER@$HOST
> $LOGNAME@localhost -h1024@localhost root@mailloop.com abuse@msn.com
> abuse@asio.gov.au abuse@federalpolice.gov.au fraudinfo@psinet.com
> $USER@localhost abuse@sprint.com abuse@fbi.gov abuse@iprimus.com.au

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"atec" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45b7e47a$0$11207$61c65585@uv-55king-reader-01.melbourne.pipenetworks.com.au...
> sounds like you need to alter somethings

I'm working on it. I've tried all sorts of things including mounting the
pedals upside down like a car. The brake pedal needs to come forward so that
it's in a similar position to the accelerator when the brake is pushed. But
then it's a bit close. Maybe it needs more of an angle but I think the ideal
would be to modify it so it doesn't need to be depressed so much.

> I have installed quite a few computer race cars and this was a problem
> until the design was made more realistic , and at 6k a hit so it should be

What was the change?

[Ext User(Scotty)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b7e1d5$0$9776$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> "Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:45b754bb$1@news.comindico.com.au...

> I've got plenty of broken drill bits, especially the small ones :-) I can
> never get them to sharpen that welll though. Do they lose their hardening
> or something?
>
> Michael
>

Your not sharpening them properly then.

Trick is to twist the angle at the last second to get that bevel correct.

[Ext User(Scotty)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:45b80224$0$5746$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> "John McKenzie" <jmac@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
> news:45B7F0F1.216E@alphalink.com.au...


> Thanks for the tips, I'll give it a go. I'm working with the additional
> difficulty of using an angle grinder.
>



Bloody hell man, go out to Bunnings and spend $50 on a bench grinder, you
will save that much on drill bits alone if your going through them that
fast!

Make sure that you get a decent wheel tool as well, nothing worse than
getting grooves in the stone surface, almost impossible to sharpen anything
(properly) while theres grooves there.

Scotty

[Ext User(atec)]

Michael C wrote:
> "atec" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:45b7e47a$0$11207$61c65585@uv-55king-reader-01.melbourne.pipenetworks.com.au...
>> sounds like you need to alter somethings
>
> I'm working on it. I've tried all sorts of things including mounting the
> pedals upside down like a car. The brake pedal needs to come forward so that
> it's in a similar position to the accelerator when the brake is pushed. But
> then it's a bit close. Maybe it needs more of an angle but I think the ideal
> would be to modify it so it doesn't need to be depressed so much.
>
>> I have installed quite a few computer race cars and this was a problem
>> until the design was made more realistic , and at 6k a hit so it should be
>
> What was the change?
>
>
the pedal were moved to a floor mount , so in pushing they pivoted the
swung forward , if you cant get it email me and Ill explain it there.