Blown head gasket

[Ext User(David Morrison)]

My 1991 car has a blown head gasket. It loses water on every trip but
otherwise goes ok.

If there was no problem with the engine, I could probably get $3-5000
for it. As it is, I'm told I would be lucky to get $1000.

Is this correct? Would it be worth getting it fixed for about $1600, or
would that just reveal other problems?

BTW, it is a Subaru Sportswagon.

Cheers

David

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"David Morrison" <davidmor@excite.com> wrote in message
news:davidmor-0EF257.08524014032007@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net ...
> My 1991 car has a blown head gasket. It loses water on every trip but
> otherwise goes ok.
>
> If there was no problem with the engine, I could probably get $3-5000
> for it. As it is, I'm told I would be lucky to get $1000.
>
> Is this correct? Would it be worth getting it fixed for about $1600, or
> would that just reveal other problems?
>
> BTW, it is a Subaru Sportswagon.

If you are sure its a blown headgasket, then a repair shouldnt cost that
much provided the head and cylinder surface is not corroded beyond
machining. In fact being a flat-four, a head-job should be relatively easy
compared to conventional I-4s where the head is larger with more scope for
problems.

Coolant leaks can be hard to find especially if its a welch-plug hidden
under manifolding or located on the rear of the block covered by the
transmission.
Is there one plug which is showing signs of coolant leakage into its
cylinder? They are usually very clean and of a grey appearance. One way to
test for head/gasket leaks into cylinders is to remove the plugs and get
someone to crank the engine while you hold your hand in turn close to each
plug-hole. Water mist will accumulate on your hand if its a leaking
cylinder.
Barring that, the leak could be coming from any one of a number of places. I
had a bad leak occuring in a Sonata, which only occured during warm-up when
the bypass hoses were under extra pressure. There are witness marks where
the leaking coolant has pooled and evaporated, especially if the car has had
proper coolant.

Jason

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"David Morrison" <davidmor@excite.com> wrote in message news:davidmor-

> Is this correct? Would it be worth getting it fixed for about $1600, or
> would that just reveal other problems?

How long is a piece of string?

What your car is worth is dependent on a whole heap of factors, such as it's
general overall condition, the demand for that particular model and the
buyer you get on the say. In my opinion a '91 Suby wagon would have to be in
*immaculate* condition to be worth close to 5000 bucks, and as yours
obviously isn't then it stands to reason that it's real worth is
considerably less.

As to how much less I can't tell you, and only the market will.

If you were to advertise it with it's current fault, you *might* find
someone willing to buy it, but the price it sells for might be offensive.
You have to bear in mind that the demand for 15+ year old cars is not high
(unless they're collectables), and those with known "costly to repair"
conditions such as yours are considerably less popular.

As far as your engine is concerned, no one can know what it's like until
it's pulled apart and inspected, but assuming there is nothing else wrong
with it apart from a blown head gasket the stated $1600 repair bill seems
ridiculously high to me. A head gasket set for such an engine is around 100
bucks, and the heads can be removed and refitted in under 4 hours if you
take your time. 375 bucks per hour to do that seems a tad on the exorbitant
side.

The short answer is that if your car is in generally otherwise good
condition, you'll get a hell of a lot more for it with the engine repaired
than without, and you can most likely do a hell of a lot better on your
quote to have it repaired by shopping around.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Jonno)]

Noddy wrote:
> "David Morrison" <davidmor@excite.com> wrote in message news:davidmor-
>
>> Is this correct? Would it be worth getting it fixed for about $1600, or
>> would that just reveal other problems?
>
> How long is a piece of string?
>
> What your car is worth is dependent on a whole heap of factors, such as it's
> general overall condition, the demand for that particular model and the
> buyer you get on the say. In my opinion a '91 Suby wagon would have to be in
> *immaculate* condition to be worth close to 5000 bucks, and as yours
> obviously isn't then it stands to reason that it's real worth is
> considerably less.
>
> As to how much less I can't tell you, and only the market will.
>
> If you were to advertise it with it's current fault, you *might* find
> someone willing to buy it, but the price it sells for might be offensive.
> You have to bear in mind that the demand for 15+ year old cars is not high
> (unless they're collectables), and those with known "costly to repair"
> conditions such as yours are considerably less popular.
>
> As far as your engine is concerned, no one can know what it's like until
> it's pulled apart and inspected, but assuming there is nothing else wrong
> with it apart from a blown head gasket the stated $1600 repair bill seems
> ridiculously high to me. A head gasket set for such an engine is around 100
> bucks, and the heads can be removed and refitted in under 4 hours if you
> take your time. 375 bucks per hour to do that seems a tad on the exorbitant
> side.
>
> The short answer is that if your car is in generally otherwise good
> condition, you'll get a hell of a lot more for it with the engine repaired
> than without, and you can most likely do a hell of a lot better on your
> quote to have it repaired by shopping around.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.
>
>
I suppose that's worst case scenario. What if the head is cracked
warped or needs replacing? Valve regrind, valve guides? Radiator needs
flushing or has bulged and is suspect?
You can do it in 2 hours if you have power tools.
Best to learn to do it yourself though.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
news:45f72f81$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...

> I suppose that's worst case scenario. What if the head is cracked warped
> or needs replacing? Valve regrind, valve guides? Radiator needs flushing
> or has bulged and is suspect?

What if indeed.

As I said, assuming there's nothing else wrong with it other than a blown
head gasket, they're a fairly easy repair. Subaru heads being the short &
stout castings that they are, they're not as prone to warping as most, and
finding a cracked one is most unusual. They can colapse in the centre
between cylinders though if they're operated for extended periods with a
leaking geasket or at high heat ranges.

As far as the valves are concerned, if it was/is running okay it's unlikely
to need any attention in this area.

> You can do it in 2 hours if you have power tools.

Do what in 2 hours with power tools?

This particular vehicle will have an EA82 engine in it, which is an overhead
cam version of the older EA81 pushrod donk. As such, it's a slightly more
cumbersome job to remove the cylinder heads as it has cam boxes & a timing
belt to be removed and refitted as part of the job.

If you can do all that in 2 hours you're doing exceptionally well :)

> Best to learn to do it yourself though.

That's up to him.

Some people are perfectly happy to go through life knowing absolutely
nothing about cars, and it doesn't seem to affect them.

Take David Z for example....

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Jonno)]

Noddy wrote:
> "Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
> news:45f72f81$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>
>> I suppose that's worst case scenario. What if the head is cracked warped
>> or needs replacing? Valve regrind, valve guides? Radiator needs flushing
>> or has bulged and is suspect?
>
> What if indeed.
>
> As I said, assuming there's nothing else wrong with it other than a blown
> head gasket, they're a fairly easy repair. Subaru heads being the short &
> stout castings that they are, they're not as prone to warping as most, and
> finding a cracked one is most unusual. They can colapse in the centre
> between cylinders though if they're operated for extended periods with a
> leaking geasket or at high heat ranges.
>
> As far as the valves are concerned, if it was/is running okay it's unlikely
> to need any attention in this area.
>
>> You can do it in 2 hours if you have power tools.
>
> Do what in 2 hours with power tools?
>
> This particular vehicle will have an EA82 engine in it, which is an overhead
> cam version of the older EA81 pushrod donk. As such, it's a slightly more
> cumbersome job to remove the cylinder heads as it has cam boxes & a timing
> belt to be removed and refitted as part of the job.
>
> If you can do all that in 2 hours you're doing exceptionally well :)
>
>> Best to learn to do it yourself though.
>
> That's up to him.
>
> Some people are perfectly happy to go through life knowing absolutely
> nothing about cars, and it doesn't seem to affect them.
>
> Take David Z for example....
>
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.
>
>
I stand corrected in some instances.
I wasnt think Subaru.
Most heads are fairly straight forward.
Now the new cars, theyre something else.

[Ext User(Cyborg 0019)]

David Morrison wrote:
> My 1991 car has a blown head gasket. It loses water on every trip but
> otherwise goes ok.
>
> If there was no problem with the engine, I could probably get $3-5000
> for it. As it is, I'm told I would be lucky to get $1000.
>
> Is this correct? Would it be worth getting it fixed for about $1600, or
> would that just reveal other problems?
>
> BTW, it is a Subaru Sportswagon.
>
> Cheers
>
> David

Its worth getting it fixed...lol
besides the heads on these are so easy to fix.
$1600 is a bit steep considering they take 15min at the most to remove
try half of that,I don't think they are alowed to charge that much,but
then again,I don't read that book.

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
news:45f744d9$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> Noddy wrote:
> > "Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
> > news:45f72f81$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> >
> >> I suppose that's worst case scenario. What if the head is cracked
warped
> >> or needs replacing? Valve regrind, valve guides? Radiator needs
flushing
> >> or has bulged and is suspect?
> >
> > What if indeed.
> >
> > As I said, assuming there's nothing else wrong with it other than a
blown
> > head gasket, they're a fairly easy repair. Subaru heads being the short
&
> > stout castings that they are, they're not as prone to warping as most,
and
> > finding a cracked one is most unusual. They can colapse in the centre
> > between cylinders though if they're operated for extended periods with a
> > leaking geasket or at high heat ranges.
> >
> > As far as the valves are concerned, if it was/is running okay it's
unlikely
> > to need any attention in this area.
> >
> >> You can do it in 2 hours if you have power tools.
> >
> > Do what in 2 hours with power tools?
> >
> > This particular vehicle will have an EA82 engine in it, which is an
overhead
> > cam version of the older EA81 pushrod donk. As such, it's a slightly
more
> > cumbersome job to remove the cylinder heads as it has cam boxes & a
timing
> > belt to be removed and refitted as part of the job.
> >
> > If you can do all that in 2 hours you're doing exceptionally well :)
> >
> >> Best to learn to do it yourself though.
> >
> > That's up to him.
> >
> > Some people are perfectly happy to go through life knowing absolutely
> > nothing about cars, and it doesn't seem to affect them.
> >
> > Take David Z for example....
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Noddy.
> >
> >
> I stand corrected in some instances.
> I wasnt think Subaru.
> Most heads are fairly straight forward.
> Now the new cars, theyre something else.

Think VW engine, but with water-cooling and OHC.
j.

[Ext User(Cyborg 0019)]

Jonno wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>
>> "Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
>> news:45f72f81$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>>
>>> I suppose that's worst case scenario. What if the head is cracked
>>> warped or needs replacing? Valve regrind, valve guides? Radiator
>>> needs flushing or has bulged and is suspect?
>>
>>
>> What if indeed.
>>
>> As I said, assuming there's nothing else wrong with it other than a
>> blown head gasket, they're a fairly easy repair. Subaru heads being
>> the short & stout castings that they are, they're not as prone to
>> warping as most, and finding a cracked one is most unusual. They can
>> colapse in the centre between cylinders though if they're operated for
>> extended periods with a leaking geasket or at high heat ranges.
>>
>> As far as the valves are concerned, if it was/is running okay it's
>> unlikely to need any attention in this area.
>>
>>> You can do it in 2 hours if you have power tools.
>>
>>
>> Do what in 2 hours with power tools?
>>
>> This particular vehicle will have an EA82 engine in it, which is an
>> overhead cam version of the older EA81 pushrod donk. As such, it's a
>> slightly more cumbersome job to remove the cylinder heads as it has
>> cam boxes & a timing belt to be removed and refitted as part of the job.
>>
>> If you can do all that in 2 hours you're doing exceptionally well :)
>>
>>> Best to learn to do it yourself though.
>>
>>
>> That's up to him.
>>
>> Some people are perfectly happy to go through life knowing absolutely
>> nothing about cars, and it doesn't seem to affect them.
>>
>> Take David Z for example....
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Noddy.
>>
> I stand corrected in some instances.
> I wasnt think Subaru.
> Most heads are fairly straight forward.
> Now the new cars, theyre something else.

Chances of other problems with the head are remote in suberu,these
things normally just run for years.

One guy,a friend of mine with the push rod model,decided the engine need
redesigning in the backyard with a drill,emory paper and a lathe.
He did some strange things to make this car more fuel efficent,many may
beg to differ on his ideas,however they were mostly come and go at the time.
He drilled out the push rods making them lighter,drilled holes on the
conrods to make them lighter,improved the oil flow around the pistons
with more holes,put in light duty valve springs and also hardened valves
from some other car.
It made me laugh as he spent years doing this on and off.
He also had some falcon alloy's redrilled to fit the wheels,
The car looked like the clappers,painted cammo green with large sections
of body filler falling off,it went just fine,he claimed he got far
better litres per 100km just ticking along slowly.

[Ext User(Jonno)]

Jason James wrote:
> "Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
> news:45f744d9$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>> Noddy wrote:
>>> "Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
>>> news:45f72f81$0$5743$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>>>
>>>> I suppose that's worst case scenario. What if the head is cracked
> warped
>>>> or needs replacing? Valve regrind, valve guides? Radiator needs
> flushing
>>>> or has bulged and is suspect?
>>> What if indeed.
>>>
>>> As I said, assuming there's nothing else wrong with it other than a
> blown
>>> head gasket, they're a fairly easy repair. Subaru heads being the short
> &
>>> stout castings that they are, they're not as prone to warping as most,
> and
>>> finding a cracked one is most unusual. They can colapse in the centre
>>> between cylinders though if they're operated for extended periods with a
>>> leaking geasket or at high heat ranges.
>>>
>>> As far as the valves are concerned, if it was/is running okay it's
> unlikely
>>> to need any attention in this area.
>>>
>>>> You can do it in 2 hours if you have power tools.
>>> Do what in 2 hours with power tools?
>>>
>>> This particular vehicle will have an EA82 engine in it, which is an
> overhead
>>> cam version of the older EA81 pushrod donk. As such, it's a slightly
> more
>>> cumbersome job to remove the cylinder heads as it has cam boxes & a
> timing
>>> belt to be removed and refitted as part of the job.
>>>
>>> If you can do all that in 2 hours you're doing exceptionally well :)
>>>
>>>> Best to learn to do it yourself though.
>>> That's up to him.
>>>
>>> Some people are perfectly happy to go through life knowing absolutely
>>> nothing about cars, and it doesn't seem to affect them.
>>>
>>> Take David Z for example....
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Noddy.
>>>
>>>
>> I stand corrected in some instances.
>> I wasnt think Subaru.
>> Most heads are fairly straight forward.
>> Now the new cars, theyre something else.
>
> Think VW engine, but with water-cooling and OHC.
> j.
>
>
Well yeah I realise that once i read again!(grin!)

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Cyborg 0019" <jjbruce@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45f74e9d@news.comindico.com.au...

> Its worth getting it fixed...lol
> besides the heads on these are so easy to fix.
> $1600 is a bit steep considering they take 15min at the most to remove
> try half of that,I don't think they are alowed to charge that much,but
> then again,I don't read that book.

Buddy, if you can get the heads of an OHC suby engine in 15 minutes or less
*without* fucking anything, then come work for me. I'll pay you 250 bucks an
hour :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Cyborg 0019" <jjbruce@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45f75127@news.comindico.com.au...

> The car looked like the clappers,painted cammo green with large sections
> of body filler falling off,it went just fine,he claimed he got far better
> litres per 100km just ticking along slowly.

He could have saved himself a shitload of work if he realised that's all the
early pushrod Suby donk's were ever capable of doing anyway :)

Early model Suby engines were fairly unique in that they made virtually no
power and *hated* to rev, but what they could do well was cruise along all
day without a glitch and be pretty economical while doing so. My wife's '84
Sportswagon did almost 350k km's without the slightest problem, and is still
going strong today in the hands of a new owner.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Patrick)]

Noddy wrote:
> "Cyborg 0019" <jjbruce@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:45f74e9d@news.comindico.com.au...
>
>> Its worth getting it fixed...lol
>> besides the heads on these are so easy to fix.
>> $1600 is a bit steep considering they take 15min at the most to remove
>> try half of that,I don't think they are alowed to charge that much,but
>> then again,I don't read that book.
>
> Buddy, if you can get the heads of an OHC suby engine in 15 minutes or less
> *without* fucking anything, then come work for me. I'll pay you 250 bucks an
> hour :)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.
>
>

That's putting the money where your mouth is Noddy,

will Cyborg back up his claim?

[Ext User(Jason James)]

"Cyborg 0019" <jjbruce@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45f75127@news.comindico.com.au...>
> Chances of other problems with the head are remote in suberu,these
> things normally just run for years.
>
> He drilled out the push rods making them lighter,drilled holes on the
> conrods to make them lighter,improved the oil flow around the pistons
> with more holes,put in light duty valve springs and also hardened valves
> from some other car.
> It made me laugh as he spent years doing this on and off.
> He also had some falcon alloy's redrilled to fit the wheels,
> The car looked like the clappers,painted cammo green with large sections
> of body filler falling off,it went just fine,he claimed he got far
> better litres per 100km just ticking along slowly.

Well drilling holes in the rods sounds a bit scarey,..but if he was after a
more ready revver with no appreciable power increase,..I guess it was OK.
Not sumpthin I'd like to do to most engines.

The extra oil-holes could cause some unexpected results. Rings rely on oil
sitting behind them in the groove to help maintain pressure against the
bore. Atleast that's what I read somewhere,..but hey, he was able to drive
it without any dramas. so perhaps he knew his shit?

Weakening the springs points to a low revving motor which they were pretty
well anyway. Would take a lot of load off the cam/rockers and save some
power.

Jason

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Patrick" <doctorpat@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:1173846698.188410@login-host.silverbrookresearch.com...

> That's putting the money where your mouth is Noddy,

No fear of losing any of it :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Dan---)]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:31:37 +1100, Patrick PCM code reading says :


>
> will Cyborg back up his claim?

Depends if he is high on magic mushies. :-)

--
Regards
Dan

[Ext User(Dan---)]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:31:47 +1100, Noddy PCM code reading says :


>
> Buddy, if you can get the heads of an OHC suby engine in 15 minutes or
> less *without* fucking anything, then come work for me. I'll pay you 250
> bucks an hour :)


A win win situation for yourself. :-)

--
Regards
Dan

[Ext User(David Morrison)]

Thanks for the comments.

> What your car is worth is dependent on a whole heap of factors, such as it's
> general overall condition, the demand for that particular model and the
> buyer you get on the say. In my opinion a '91 Suby wagon would have to be in
> *immaculate* condition to be worth close to 5000 bucks, and as yours
> obviously isn't then it stands to reason that it's real worth is
> considerably less.

It is not quite in immaculate condition, but it is not far off apart
from the head gasket. It has been serviced regularly since new, and lots
of the major items have been done in the last few years (front drive
shafts, carby overhaul, heater element replaced, etc). Body is in very
good condition - no rust, paint still has a shine, seats with no damage
or obvious wear, mats still ok, recently had tinting replaced under
warranty.

> If you were to advertise it with it's current fault, you *might* find
> someone willing to buy it, but the price it sells for might be offensive.
> You have to bear in mind that the demand for 15+ year old cars is not high
> (unless they're collectables), and those with known "costly to repair"
> conditions such as yours are considerably less popular.

I suspect that people buying old cars are generally after something that
just works (more or less), and wouldn't want to have to do any work on
it, whatever the price. Anyone who would buy it, as you suggest, would
be looking for a bargain to repair.

> As far as your engine is concerned, no one can know what it's like until
> it's pulled apart and inspected, but assuming there is nothing else wrong
> with it apart from a blown head gasket the stated $1600 repair bill seems
> ridiculously high to me. A head gasket set for such an engine is around 100
> bucks, and the heads can be removed and refitted in under 4 hours if you
> take your time. 375 bucks per hour to do that seems a tad on the exorbitant
> side.

Well, it actually had the heads overhauled about 5-6 years ago, so I am
a little disappointed that the gaskets have failed already.
Interestingly, shortly after this, I noticed coolant seeping around the
heads. A change of coolant solved that problem until now.

What is happening now is:

coolant is seeping out around the head gaskets
gas and a little oil is being blown into the coolant
there is no obvious water in the oil
the car still goes well

This has been building up for a few months, but the amount of gas seems
to have gotten noticeably worse in the last two.

I'm just reluctant to get it fixed in case there are other problems that
cost a lot more to fix. Then it may have cost me $4000 to fix, so I can
sell it for..... $4000.

From other comments here, it seems that Subaru heads are reasonably
reliable, and that I may get away with just replacing the gaskets.

David

[Ext User(Clockmeister)]

"David Morrison" <davidmor@excite.com> wrote in message
news:davidmor-0EF257.08524014032007@eth00.pnews.internode.on.net ...
> My 1991 car has a blown head gasket. It loses water on every trip but
> otherwise goes ok.
>
> If there was no problem with the engine, I could probably get $3-5000
> for it. As it is, I'm told I would be lucky to get $1000.
>
> Is this correct? Would it be worth getting it fixed for about $1600, or
> would that just reveal other problems?
>
> BTW, it is a Subaru Sportswagon.
>

I suspect you are being quoted on a worst case scenario because that is
rather steep.

Those engines can be a little expensive to repair if they are long in the
tooth but generally if the engine runs quitely (no loud ticking noises) it
can be assumed that replacing the head gasket and timing belts as applicable
will be all that is needed.

They are a pretty easy engine to work on so labour costs should be pretty
reasonable and parts prices are reasonable.

I suggest that you get a second opinion.

[Ext User(Clockmeister)]

"Patrick" <doctorpat@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:1173846698.188410@login-host.silverbrookresearch.com...
> Noddy wrote:
>> "Cyborg 0019" <jjbruce@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:45f74e9d@news.comindico.com.au...
>>
>>> Its worth getting it fixed...lol
>>> besides the heads on these are so easy to fix.
>>> $1600 is a bit steep considering they take 15min at the most to remove
>>> try half of that,I don't think they are alowed to charge that much,but
>>> then again,I don't read that book.
>>
>> Buddy, if you can get the heads of an OHC suby engine in 15 minutes or
>> less *without* fucking anything, then come work for me. I'll pay you 250
>> bucks an hour :)
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Noddy.
>
> That's putting the money where your mouth is Noddy,
>
> will Cyborg back up his claim?

Nod's money is safe.