V8 Supercars dead?

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <mculleyNOSPAM@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:464a5bbf$0$15974

> Rubbish. Braking into a high speed corner is more difficult as you have to
> be much more precise. A little too much speed and you're off the corner at
> 150kph.

Same for *any* corner.

> If you don't change down smoothly then you're much more likely to
> upset the car for the entry to the corner.

Same for *any* corner.

> You're also travelling at a much
> higher speed so covering a lot more ground, so if you leave your braking
> too
> late it takes more ground to recover.

Same for *any* corner.

Braking is *not* a difficult task Michael unless you don't have any brakes,
then it becomes something to worry about. Setting the car up for corner
entry is dependent on the corner as much as it is speed, gearing, position
on the road and anything else.

It's all part of the "juggling" deal that you have to balance to get it
right, and the braking aspect alone isn't particularly difficult in and of
itself.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(atec 77)]

Michael C wrote:
> "Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4649526e$0$52301$c30e37c6@lon-
>> I tend to agree, but think there's distinct differences.
>>
>> For example, 160 laps around Spa wouldn't get as old anywhere near as
> quick
>> as 160 laps around a Nascar circuit. Bathurst is an in between mixture of
>> these two extremes (if you can call Spa an extreme for this example) in
> that
>> all the "action" takes place in 40 seconds or so over the top of the
>> mountain while the rest of the lap is rather boring.
>>
>> Alan Moffat used to cruise down Conrod Straight at 170mph in his RX7 with
> an
>> arm resting on the top of the door :)
>
> So they appreciate the break. :-)
>
>> Braking is braking. You're washing off speed. The only difficult part
> about
>> it is washing off the exact amount of speed for optimum corner entry.
>>
>> Whatever angle the corner is makes little difference.
>
> Rubbish. Braking into a high speed corner is more difficult as you have to
> be much more precise. A little too much speed and you're off the corner at
> 150kph. If you don't change down smoothly then you're much more likely to
> upset the car for the entry to the corner. You're also travelling at a much
> higher speed so covering a lot more ground, so if you leave your braking too
> late it takes more ground to recover.
>
> Michael
>
>
SOunds like you were not meant to race , high speed or not it is all the
same and anyone with decent reactions has no problems with it , I have
had experience but it sounds like your reading from someone elses book.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:464a651d$0$52300$c30e37c6@lon-
> > Rubbish. Braking into a high speed corner is more difficult as you have
to
> > be much more precise. A little too much speed and you're off the corner
at
> > 150kph.
>
> Same for *any* corner.
> Same for *any* corner.
> Same for *any* corner.

No it is not. If the corner is lower speed then errors are much easier to
correct. You have more time to correct the error, you will run off less in
the case you can't correct the error and the resulting prang will be much
less. If you upset the car's balance the consequences will be much less. The
corner at the end of the uphill straight at bathurst is *much* more
difficult than the one at the end of conrod.

> Braking is *not* a difficult task Michael unless you don't have any
brakes,
> then it becomes something to worry about. Setting the car up for corner
> entry is dependent on the corner as much as it is speed, gearing, position
> on the road and anything else.

I never said braking was overly difficult. Just that braking for a high
speed corner is much more challenging. Braking into a low speed corner is
quite easy. Braking into a high speed corner and getting a good time around
that high speed corner is much more difficult. This is something I would
have thought was pretty obvious but I know you love to argue everything to
the death. :-)

> It's all part of the "juggling" deal that you have to balance to get it
> right, and the braking aspect alone isn't particularly difficult in and of
> itself.

I do not mean just the braking itself. I am talking about braking into and
around the corner. Any errors during the braking are multiplied in a high
speed corner. The opposite also applies, it's very easy to over brake and
lose time taking the corner too slowly.

Michael

[Ext User(OzOne)]

On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:03:10 +1000, atec 77 <""atec 7 7 \"@ hotmail
dot com"> scribbled thusly:


>SOunds like you were not meant to race , high speed or not it is all the
>same and anyone with decent reactions has no problems with it , I have
>had experience but it sounds like your reading from someone elses book.

Sure Techie,
ry making a tiny mistake braking on the limit for a 100kph corner fron
say 300kph,
then try making that same mistake for a 30kph corner when doing 90kph.

You'll very quickly see....maybe even survive to realise the
difference.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,
We've been expecting you.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

<OzOne> wrote in message news:pb9l431ja46oc7adpvl8gc84cj3ka4cm69@4ax.com...
> Sure Techie,
> ry making a tiny mistake braking on the limit for a 100kph corner fron
> say 300kph,
> then try making that same mistake for a 30kph corner when doing 90kph.
>
> You'll very quickly see....maybe even survive to realise the
> difference.

Makes a lot of sense, the faster you are going the less reaction time you
have and easier it is to fuck up.

Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <mculleyNOSPAM@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:464a8d8e$0$967

> No it is not. If the corner is lower speed then errors are much easier to
> correct. You have more time to correct the error, you will run off less in
> the case you can't correct the error and the resulting prang will be much
> less. If you upset the car's balance the consequences will be much less.
> The
> corner at the end of the uphill straight at bathurst is *much* more
> difficult than the one at the end of conrod.

You're being a bit too general here, as the speed can be irrelevant at
times.

By that I mean you can have high speed corners, or high entry speeds into
corners, where mistakes are relatively easy to gather up if you make them.
Conversely, you can have much slower corners that are less forgiving, and
one wheel in the wrong spot can put you off.

Like I said, it's a juggling act taking *everything* about the specific
event into account.

> I never said braking was overly difficult. Just that braking for a high
> speed corner is much more challenging.

Not really.

> Braking into a low speed corner is
> quite easy. Braking into a high speed corner and getting a good time
> around
> that high speed corner is much more difficult. This is something I would
> have thought was pretty obvious but I know you love to argue everything to
> the death. :-)

Pretty much :)

It *is* obvious if you just look at it from the point of view of slowing
from different speeds, but then that's *not* how it works on the track.

When braking at high speed you're generally on the brakes for a long time to
wash off speed, so you tend to have your corner entry set up a *long* way
from the corner itself. Mistakes still happen of course, but in most cases
you're coming off the end of a fairly quick part of the track into a long
braking manouvere than gives you plenty of time to get the car set up.

At slower speeds it all happens a lot quicker. You speed much less time on
the brake, and in most cases put more brake on than you otherwise would as
most drivers like to brake as late and as hard as possible to enable the
quickest time between corners. You might be traveling slower, sure, but then
you have a lot more scope for disaster when standing on the brakes harder.

If you look at the number of cars locking a wheel going into a corner,
you'll see most do so going into slow corners when braking from moderate
rather than uber quick speeds. The main reason for that is because you have
far less braking time to get everything "right", and it's much easier to
pull on a little too much brake.

> I do not mean just the braking itself. I am talking about braking into and
> around the corner. Any errors during the braking are multiplied in a high
> speed corner.

To a degree, but bear in mind that when braking from "high speed" going into
a "high speed corner" (and I'm being very general here as no speeds have
been mentioned), you're not washing off shitloads of speed in total, and the
higher the corner speed (in relation to the speed you're approaching it at),
the smaller the braking effort required and the less chance of a braking
error.

Take the "Chase" on Conrod Straight at Bathurst for example.

I don't know if they brake at all for it these days as I haven't watched it
for years, but when they first stuck it in they would brake for a second or
so from flat out down the straight to wash off just enough speed to enable a
good entry, and then they'd be hard on the gas as soon as they were into it.

That's a sweeper rather than a corner per se', but it's very high speed, and
still had to be braked for to be negotiated. The difficulty wasn't in the
braking, but keeping the car on the track while going around the bend at
speed which was long after the braking and corner entry.

At the other end of the scale, slow corners represent their own problems in
the areas of locked brakes and over powring the track in lower gears as
drivers get in a bit too much of a hurry to get out of them.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:464adc40$0$52306$c30e37c6@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
> You're being a bit too general here, as the speed can be irrelevant at
> times.
>
> By that I mean you can have high speed corners, or high entry speeds into
> corners, where mistakes are relatively easy to gather up if you make them.
> Conversely, you can have much slower corners that are less forgiving, and
> one wheel in the wrong spot can put you off.

Partially true although generally the higher speed the corner the more
difficult.

> Not really.

Really.

> Pretty much :)
>
> It *is* obvious if you just look at it from the point of view of slowing
> from different speeds, but then that's *not* how it works on the track.
>
> When braking at high speed you're generally on the brakes for a long time
> to wash off speed, so you tend to have your corner entry set up a *long*
> way from the corner itself. Mistakes still happen of course, but in most
> cases you're coming off the end of a fairly quick part of the track into a
> long braking manouvere than gives you plenty of time to get the car set
> up.
>
> At slower speeds it all happens a lot quicker. You speed much less time on
> the brake, and in most cases put more brake on than you otherwise would as
> most drivers like to brake as late and as hard as possible to enable the
> quickest time between corners. You might be traveling slower, sure, but
> then you have a lot more scope for disaster when standing on the brakes
> harder.
>
> If you look at the number of cars locking a wheel going into a corner,
> you'll see most do so going into slow corners when braking from moderate
> rather than uber quick speeds. The main reason for that is because you
> have far less braking time to get everything "right", and it's much easier
> to pull on a little too much brake.

That's all very nice but totally and utterly irrelevant. Remember we are
comparing coming off the end of conrod to the end of that other straight at
bathurst. We are not talking about braking from a low speed.

> Take the "Chase" on Conrod Straight at Bathurst for example.
>
> I don't know if they brake at all for it these days as I haven't watched
> it for years, but when they first stuck it in they would brake for a
> second or so from flat out down the straight to wash off just enough speed
> to enable a good entry, and then they'd be hard on the gas as soon as they
> were into it.

From what I've been told they don't brake it any more.

> That's a sweeper rather than a corner per se', but it's very high speed,
> and still had to be braked for to be negotiated. The difficulty wasn't in
> the braking, but keeping the car on the track while going around the bend
> at speed which was long after the braking and corner entry.

I would image that would be more difficult to get right and not lose any
time on the corner.

> At the other end of the scale, slow corners represent their own problems
> in the areas of locked brakes and over powring the track in lower gears as
> drivers get in a bit too much of a hurry to get out of them.

That is possible but too much power can happen at quite high speeds if the
wheels are already on their limit. If you get a situation on a slow corner
where the back steps out you've got much more time to correct it.

Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:464b0085$0$2869$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...

> Partially true although generally the higher speed the corner the more
> difficult.

Sure, but it's the keeping the car on the track *during* the cornering
that's the difficult part.

> That's all very nice but totally and utterly irrelevant. Remember we are
> comparing coming off the end of conrod to the end of that other straight
> at bathurst. We are not talking about braking from a low speed.

I'm sorry, but we were talking about "fast" & "slow" corners in general, and
the peculiarities associated with each. If you want to nane specific
examples that's fine, but don't just fling them in afterwards :)

<..>

> I would image that would be more difficult to get right and not lose any
> time on the corner.

Maybe so, but the point being that it's a very high speed corner (or, at
least, a deviation from the straight), and when they *did* brake for it the
braking itself was a basic manouvere. The difficulty was in keeping the car
on the track while they were powering around the turn.

> That is possible but too much power can happen at quite high speeds if the
> wheels are already on their limit. If you get a situation on a slow corner
> where the back steps out you've got much more time to correct it.

Again, it depends on the particular circumstances.

I certainly agree that you can step the back out at any time, but there are
distinct differences to the way it happens.

At low speeds when the car is in low gear you have a huge torque
multiplication factor playing through the gearbox that can make it very easy
to brake traction if you're a bit too enthusiastic with the throttle. If you
do this you *might* be able to gather things up and continue, but you also
might be right near a wall where stepping the back end out by as much as a
couple of feet will see you into the pits needing repairs. There's no
guarantee whatsoever that just because you're going slower that you will get
out of it uninjured.

High speed losses are also related to the tyres braking traction, but
normally because the car's going too quick for the load, not because they
have enough throttle on to actually cause the tyre to slip. In top gear you
simply don't have anywhere near the same level of torque multiplication, and
while I'm sure there are some cars out there than can easily spin their
tyres in top if the driver *want's* to, it's not as easy to do as it is with
the car in first or second.

Not even close.

Still, this is moving away from your contention that high speed braking is
more difficult than low speed.

The fact is that the longer you spend on the brakes for a given corner, the
more time you have to "adjust" your braking and set yourself up. The shorter
the time the more precise you need to be, and the speed you're traveling at
is largely irrelevant.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:464bbeab$0$52288$c30e37c6@lon-
> I'm sorry, but we were talking about "fast" & "slow" corners in general,
and
> the peculiarities associated with each. If you want to nane specific
> examples that's fine, but don't just fling them in afterwards :)

I didn't nods. We were talking about the 2 straights at bathurst. Is your
memory that short? You're the one flinging stuff in afterwards.

> Maybe so, but the point being that it's a very high speed corner (or, at
> least, a deviation from the straight), and when they *did* brake for it
the
> braking itself was a basic manouvere. The difficulty was in keeping the
car
> on the track while they were powering around the turn.
>
> > That is possible but too much power can happen at quite high speeds if
the
> > wheels are already on their limit. If you get a situation on a slow
corner
> > where the back steps out you've got much more time to correct it.
>
> Again, it depends on the particular circumstances.
>
> I certainly agree that you can step the back out at any time, but there
are
> distinct differences to the way it happens.
>
> At low speeds when the car is in low gear you have a huge torque
> multiplication factor playing through the gearbox that can make it very
easy
> to brake traction if you're a bit too enthusiastic with the throttle. If
you
> do this you *might* be able to gather things up and continue, but you also
> might be right near a wall where stepping the back end out by as much as a
> couple of feet will see you into the pits needing repairs. There's no
> guarantee whatsoever that just because you're going slower that you will
get
> out of it uninjured.
>
> High speed losses are also related to the tyres braking traction, but
> normally because the car's going too quick for the load, not because they
> have enough throttle on to actually cause the tyre to slip. In top gear
you
> simply don't have anywhere near the same level of torque multiplication,
and
> while I'm sure there are some cars out there than can easily spin their
> tyres in top if the driver *want's* to, it's not as easy to do as it is
with
> the car in first or second.
>
> Not even close.
>
> Still, this is moving away from your contention that high speed braking is
> more difficult than low speed.

What planet are you on nods? This is NOT what we are talking about at all.
Go read back to where you started digging
>
> The fact is that the longer you spend on the brakes for a given corner,
the
> more time you have to "adjust" your braking and set yourself up. The
shorter
> the time the more precise you need to be, and the speed you're traveling
at
> is largely irrelevant.

So you agree with me that braking for a high speed corner gives you less
time hence is more difficult. Exactly what I've been saying all along.

Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <mculleyNOSPAM@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:464bcdd4$0$24411

> So you agree with me that braking for a high speed corner gives you less
> time hence is more difficult. Exactly what I've been saying all along.

I don't know how you could even get that from what I said to be honest.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:464bf4a7$0$52302$c30e37c6@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
>
> "Michael C" <mculleyNOSPAM@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:464bcdd4$0$24411
>
>> So you agree with me that braking for a high speed corner gives you less
>> time hence is more difficult. Exactly what I've been saying all along.
>
> I don't know how you could even get that from what I said to be honest.

Maybe because that is what you said. With a longer braking time you have
more time to set yourself up. You did say this and for a high speed corner
you do have less time to brake.

Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:464ce6d5$0$2869$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...

> Maybe because that is what you said. With a longer braking time you have
> more time to set yourself up. You did say this and for a high speed corner
> you do have less time to brake.

Yes, I did say that, but you were commenting on the differences between
high & low speed braking, and that braking at high speed was more difficult.
My contention is that the speed is irrelevant, and it's the manner in which
the brakes are applied that makes it difficult or not.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:464cea2e$0$52295$c30e37c6@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
> Yes, I did say that, but you were commenting on the differences between
> high & low speed braking, and that braking at high speed was more
> difficult. My contention is that the speed is irrelevant, and it's the
> manner in which the brakes are applied that makes it difficult or not.

That new kid must really be keeping you up nods. After all this time you
still don't know what I'm trying to say.

Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:464cf006$0$967$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au. ..

> That new kid must really be keeping you up nods. After all this time you
> still don't know what I'm trying to say.

No Michael, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. What *I'm*
saying is that I think you're wrong and I disagree with you :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Ext User(Michael C)]

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:464d05b4$0$52306$c30e37c6@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
>
> "Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:464cf006$0$967$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au. ..
>
>> That new kid must really be keeping you up nods. After all this time you
>> still don't know what I'm trying to say.
>
> No Michael, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. What *I'm*
> saying is that I think you're wrong and I disagree with you :)

You don't have a clue what I'm trying to say. You said what you thought I
was trying to say and it was nothing like what I am saying.

Michael

[Ext User(Noddy)]

"Michael C" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:464d12a4$0$11985$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...

> You don't have a clue what I'm trying to say. You said what you thought I
> was trying to say and it was nothing like what I am saying.

Fair enough Michael, but what you *originally* said was pretty clear to me.

And I thought it was bullshit :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.