Learner driver culpability

[Ext User(jackbadger56)]

In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
held a licence.
I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
is something that needs addressing first.

News story;

http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb

and

http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c

[Ext User(Slip)]

"jackbadger56" <castle56@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d8806b6-1a86-457d-a883-df386e3356f6@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
> held a licence.
> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
> is something that needs addressing first.
>
> News story;
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>
> and
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c

I agree completely and it is a question I would like answered as well.
Another good reason why first time drivers should be professionally trained
in, at least, the basics.

Regards,

Slip

[Ext User(DJ)]

"jackbadger56" <castle56@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d8806b6-1a86-457d-a883-df386e3356f6@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
> held a licence.
> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
> is something that needs addressing first.
>
> News story;
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>
> and
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c


I know that intersection very well and the bus stop that is there, in fact i
always said that bus stop is in a very dangerous position. I know this
because I've been a bus driver in that area for many years (not anymore
though) and have stopped there thousands of times.

The problem is when you are trying to turn right into Railway Pde from that
road comming from kogarah high(can't remember name of road right now), you
have lots of traffic either turning right or going straight ahead ahd cars
zoom through that intersection quite quickly, so if someone with little or
no experience is trying to turn right there, they'd have to do it quick to
beat the lights or they might be stuck inside the intersection.

I'm a great beleiver of the fact that the first 5 - 10 hours of learner
driving should be done at a licenced driving school as driver instructor
cars have dual brakes for that reason and that accident could have been
prevented if that was a driving school car with a licenced instructor. It
should be mandatory.

DJ

[Ext User(Daryl Walford)]

jackbadger56 wrote:
> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
> held a licence.
> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
> is something that needs addressing first.
>
> News story;
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>
> and
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c

In a case like that I would be questioning the competence of the
"instructor".
I wouldn't take a learner anywhere near other traffic and pedestrians
unless I was confident they had some experience either with a
professional instructor in a dual control car or in an area like an
industrial estate on a weekend or another quiet area where there is
little or no traffic.
I gave a couple of driving lessons to a young cousin, I tried to get her
to do a U turn and she hit the accelerator too hard almost putting the
EF into a lamp post, we only missed it because I pushed the auto out of
gear and pulled on the handbrake.



Daryl

[Ext User(Daryl Walford)]

Slip wrote:
> "jackbadger56" <castle56@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3d8806b6-1a86-457d-a883-df386e3356f6@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
>> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
>> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
>> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
>> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
>> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
>> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
>> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
>> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
>> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
>> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>> held a licence.
>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>> is something that needs addressing first.
>>
>> News story;
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c
>
> I agree completely and it is a question I would like answered as well.
> Another good reason why first time drivers should be professionally trained
> in, at least, the basics.

Agreed, a minimum of 2hrs with a professional before being allowed to
learn with a non professional.
My wife and I have given vouchers for driving lessons as birthday
presents to a few 16yr olds.




Daryl

[Ext User(Dave E)]

<snip>

> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
> held a licence.
> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
> is something that needs addressing first.


Yes indeed - everyone in this story is a victim. The poor woman (driver)
has had a pretty tough life and this clearly has been yet another major
traumatic event in her life. IMHO it is the system that's at fault and she
(from what I know of the situation) has suffered enough. We all make
mistakes. How can she possibly be culpable???

Beyond the learner phase, it constantly pisses me off that there are sooo
many folk on the road who clearly have not had sufficient instruction. My
biggest issue, exacerbated by the fact that I ride motorbikes, is the
amazingly high proportion of people that tailgate.

I followed 2 cars tailgating a 3rd yesterday through Frenchs Forest, keeping
my distance. The lead car braked a bit unexpectedly and the other 2 rammed
into him and each other. It was a low speed accident but I marvelled that
the 2 tailgaters got out and screamed abuse at the first driver who stated
that a small domestic animal had run in front of him! I left the morons to
sort out their silly problem.

For me it's particularly bad on the freeway north of Sydney to the Central
Coast. I've abused that many fvckers from driving right up my date - and
this is at speeds (sometimes well) beyond the posted limits!

Anyway - the original story is a very sad one indeed and for me the
government has had its head up its arse for too long on driver
training/awareness.

Cheers,
Dave E (Sydney)

[Ext User(Bugalugs)]

Dave E wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>> held a licence.
>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>> is something that needs addressing first.
>
>
> Yes indeed - everyone in this story is a victim. The poor woman (driver)
> has had a pretty tough life and this clearly has been yet another major
> traumatic event in her life. IMHO it is the system that's at fault and she
> (from what I know of the situation) has suffered enough. We all make
> mistakes. How can she possibly be culpable???
>

Typical...look around for someone else to blame. Hint: who's foot was on
the accelerator ?


> Beyond the learner phase, it constantly pisses me off that there are sooo
> many folk on the road who clearly have not had sufficient instruction. My
> biggest issue, exacerbated by the fact that I ride motorbikes, is the
> amazingly high proportion of people that tailgate.
>
> I followed 2 cars tailgating a 3rd yesterday through Frenchs Forest, keeping
> my distance. The lead car braked a bit unexpectedly and the other 2 rammed
> into him and each other. It was a low speed accident but I marvelled that
> the 2 tailgaters got out and screamed abuse at the first driver who stated
> that a small domestic animal had run in front of him! I left the morons to
> sort out their silly problem.
>
> For me it's particularly bad on the freeway north of Sydney to the Central
> Coast. I've abused that many fvckers from driving right up my date - and
> this is at speeds (sometimes well) beyond the posted limits!
>
> Anyway - the original story is a very sad one indeed and for me the
> government has had its head up its arse for too long on driver
> training/awareness.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave E (Sydney)
>
>

[Ext User(The Raven)]

"Slip" <sww@everywhere.com> wrote in message
news:13mk3095q9okf0c@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "jackbadger56" <castle56@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3d8806b6-1a86-457d-a883-df386e3356f6@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
>> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
>> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
>> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
>> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
>> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
>> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
>> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
>> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
>> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
>> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>> held a licence.
>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>> is something that needs addressing first.
>>
>> News story;
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c
>
> I agree completely and it is a question I would like answered as well.
> Another good reason why first time drivers should be professionally
> trained in, at least, the basics.
>

Unfortunately, there are many instructors out there who are far from
'professional' let alone know much about vehicles and driving. You only have
to take a look at the casual approach many of these instructors take with
their students on the road.

The other side of the fence is family and friends instructing. I couldn't
care how long you've been driving without an accident or a ticket, that
doesn't qualify you to teach or put aside any personal interactions you have
with the student.

Instructing people in any technical skill is challenging. It would be nice
if the various authorities formalised driver training in the same way as
(for example) pilot instruction. Importantly, having a basic understanding
of how a car works and how to deal with common issues (oil, water, tyre
changes, idiot lights, handling, engine operation) would make more people
think/understand just what they are really doing.

[Ext User(Toby Ponsenby)]

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:07:03 +1300, Bugalugs blathered on in :

> Dave E wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>>> held a licence.
>>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>>> is something that needs addressing first.
>>
>>
>> Yes indeed - everyone in this story is a victim. The poor woman
>> (driver) has had a pretty tough life and this clearly has been yet
>> another major traumatic event in her life. IMHO it is the system
>> that's at fault and she (from what I know of the situation) has
>> suffered enough. We all make mistakes. How can she possibly be
>> culpable???
>>
>>
> Typical...look around for someone else to blame. Hint: who's foot was on
> the accelerator ?

Yup.
But did anyone tell the driver anything abut what the hell to do if
things didn't go according to plan?

Obviously I don't know that - But I'm betting ...NO.

I've taught quite a few to drive, and the very first thing I do is figure
out a process with the learner re what to do if things aren't quite right.
That's done on a very quiet piece of road. Very.


I'm wondering as to the driving instructor population as well
If they're a 'reflection' of the general population of drivers out there,
we're all fucked.

Many years ago a friend that wasn't at all well co-ordinated was being
taught to drive by a 'real' instructor.
Didn't take the instructor more than a few minutes to figure out the
friend couldn't fart and chew gum at the same time, and he decreed friend
would have to learn to 'steer' first.
He then fronted up with an automatic car:-)
Friend learned in that machine, and from then on couldn't and won't try
to drive a manual trans car.
Actually, the last few times I've seen that person, they've been walking,
and very probably, they never drive a car these days.

I noticed someone mentioned the pilot training.
This gets interesting, because there's an attitude out there that
'anyone' can be taught to fly.
Riiight....
It isn't true, and never was.
When I learned, I was learning at the same time as a couple of
'difficult' students, as well as the more standard types that more or
less figure it all out courtesy of the long suffering instructors and
went through the course reasonably well.
One couldn't master landings for MONTHS.
Eventually, they did manage to teach that student to land very well
indeed - one good landing in which the student 'got it', after that each
an every one bloody perfect, right up to the cross-wind max if the
tiddley little planes we flew.
After that, turned out to be a very good pilot.
The other had the practical bits more or less figured out quite well, but
NEVER saw another aircraft in either the circuit or training area.
No-one else thought to test that, but I did, since I became sus about it.
I used to flash steep turns a couple of K ahead, and try various things
to be noticed without being pranged by it. Never once saw me.
The first person mentioned is happily flying as a private pilot. Accident/
incident free.
The second was taking a shot at a commercial licence to fly (praise be)
in another country.

The moral of all that?
It was probably right to give a licence to the first example.
It was criminal to give one out to the second.

And
I reckon driving is no different.

In fact it's more difficult than flying if you want to stay in one piece.
There's fuck-all 'interaction' between aircraft in the same sense as
motoring, and it's damm clear in the circuit areas of this country that
many people shouldn't EVER be allowed to get their hands on an aircraft.
Same with cars.
Yes, unless they're watched very carefully, they'll try short circuits to
jump queues and all the other shite they undoubtedly do on the bloody
roads that they can manage to translate into acts of bastardry in the
air....

>
>
>> Beyond the learner phase, it constantly pisses me off that there are
>> sooo many folk on the road who clearly have not had sufficient
>> instruction. My biggest issue, exacerbated by the fact that I ride
>> motorbikes, is the amazingly high proportion of people that tailgate.
>>
>> I followed 2 cars tailgating a 3rd yesterday through Frenchs Forest,
>> keeping my distance. The lead car braked a bit unexpectedly and the
>> other 2 rammed into him and each other. It was a low speed accident
>> but I marvelled that the 2 tailgaters got out and screamed abuse at the
>> first driver who stated that a small domestic animal had run in front
>> of him! I left the morons to sort out their silly problem.
>>
>> For me it's particularly bad on the freeway north of Sydney to the
>> Central Coast. I've abused that many fvckers from driving right up my
>> date - and this is at speeds (sometimes well) beyond the posted limits!
>>
>> Anyway - the original story is a very sad one indeed and for me the
>> government has had its head up its arse for too long on driver
>> training/awareness.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave E (Sydney)
>>
>>





--
Toby

[Ext User(Diesel Damo)]

"Dave E" <dave@a.b.c> wrote in message
news:476a163b$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> I've abused that many fvckers from driving right up my date - and this is
> at speeds (sometimes well) beyond the posted limits!

My favourite trick in that situation - which you probably don't want to do
on a bike - is to find a good stretch of road with enough visibility, cross
over to the other side of the road, check to make sure the fuckwit hasn't
followed you over (zombies sometimes do), and drop the anchor.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ext User(George W. Frost)]

"Dave E" <dave@a.b.c> wrote in message
news:476a163b$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> <snip>
>
>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>> held a licence.
>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>> is something that needs addressing first.
>
>
> Yes indeed - everyone in this story is a victim. The poor woman (driver)
> has had a pretty tough life and this clearly has been yet another major
> traumatic event in her life. IMHO it is the system that's at fault and
> she (from what I know of the situation) has suffered enough. We all make
> mistakes. How can she possibly be culpable???
>


Utter crap, doesn't matter where the driver came from nor does it matter
what home problems the driver is having,
the driver is responible for all their actions and should be charged as per
the law states.
Fuck you and your "poor woman" attitude, this is where the system is falling
down
One law for everyone
This also creates the problem that they are giving too many people licences
who have not got a proper command of English

> Beyond the learner phase, it constantly pisses me off that there are sooo
> many folk on the road who clearly have not had sufficient instruction. My
> biggest issue, exacerbated by the fact that I ride motorbikes, is the
> amazingly high proportion of people that tailgate.


This is where my belief should be holding, and that is for EVERY learner to
go through a driving school
NOT with Mum or Dad sitting beside them, the learner learns all the bad
habits of the parent, therefore we will have two bad drivers on the road
Another thing with a leartener driving while Mum sits in the passenger seat,
especially going to or coming from school
There is always the learner wanting for their frsiendslto go with them to
show off to them how well they are driving, this creates distractions which
some people will say is helpful,
but I attended an incipent where the learner driver going to school with Mum
in the 4WD, rounded a bend, came across a roo on the road, swerved to miss
the roo,
right into the path of a fully loaded semi with a fucking great bulldozer on
it, no-where to go and people were killed


>
> I followed 2 cars tailgating a 3rd yesterday through Frenchs Forest,
> keeping my distance. The lead car braked a bit unexpectedly and the other
> 2 rammed into him and each other. It was a low speed accident but I
> marvelled that the 2 tailgaters got out and screamed abuse at the first
> driver who stated that a small domestic animal had run in front of him! I
> left the morons to sort out their silly problem.

Not a silly problem, the tailgating drivers were in the wrong technically
because you are supposed to leave enough space in case of something like
that
Then again, having said that, it is against the road rule laws for you to
swerve or suddenly stop to miss an animal and cause an collision.


>
> For me it's particularly bad on the freeway north of Sydney to the Central
> Coast. I've abused that many fvckers from driving right up my date - and
> this is at speeds (sometimes well) beyond the posted limits!
>
> Anyway - the original story is a very sad one indeed and for me the
> government has had its head up its arse for too long on driver
> training/awareness.

The original story is one of driver carelessness and highlights yet again,
the necessity of training learner drivers through the proper resources, such
as driving schools
Not with Mum or Dad

[Ext User(Slip)]

"The Raven" <wsmc@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:476a33a4$0$4007$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> "Slip" <sww@everywhere.com> wrote in message
> news:13mk3095q9okf0c@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "jackbadger56" <castle56@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:3d8806b6-1a86-457d-a883-df386e3356f6@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
>>> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
>>> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
>>> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
>>> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
>>> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
>>> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
>>> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
>>> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
>>> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
>>> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
>>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>>> held a licence.
>>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>>> is something that needs addressing first.
>>>
>>> News story;
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c
>>
>> I agree completely and it is a question I would like answered as well.
>> Another good reason why first time drivers should be professionally
>> trained in, at least, the basics.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, there are many instructors out there who are far from
> 'professional' let alone know much about vehicles and driving. You only
> have to take a look at the casual approach many of these instructors take
> with their students on the road.

This is also very true. But given the subjects some are given, one can
remotely understand.
>
> The other side of the fence is family and friends instructing. I couldn't
> care how long you've been driving without an accident or a ticket, that
> doesn't qualify you to teach or put aside any personal interactions you
> have with the student.

Yes, it's usually family and is not a very good idea at all.
>
> Instructing people in any technical skill is challenging. It would be nice
> if the various authorities formalised driver training in the same way as
> (for example) pilot instruction. Importantly, having a basic understanding
> of how a car works and how to deal with common issues (oil, water, tyre
> changes, idiot lights, handling, engine operation) would make more people
> think/understand just what they are really doing.

I think everyone should be put through a regualr driver training course as
part of their licence renewal as well as new licencees. I also believe it
should be a compulsory school course in high school, just as I believe first
aid should be taught as a compulsory school course.

Regards,

Slip

[Ext User(Slip)]

"Daryl Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:13mk59pptir201a@corp.supernews.com...
> jackbadger56 wrote:
>> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
>> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
>> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
>> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
>> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
>> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
>> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
>> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
>> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
>> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
>> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>> held a licence.
>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>> is something that needs addressing first.
>>
>> News story;
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c
>
> In a case like that I would be questioning the competence of the
> "instructor".
> I wouldn't take a learner anywhere near other traffic and pedestrians
> unless I was confident they had some experience either with a professional
> instructor in a dual control car or in an area like an industrial estate
> on a weekend or another quiet area where there is little or no traffic.
> I gave a couple of driving lessons to a young cousin, I tried to get her
> to do a U turn and she hit the accelerator too hard almost putting the EF
> into a lamp post, we only missed it because I pushed the auto out of gear
> and pulled on the handbrake.
>
> Daryl

I've done that a couple of times myself, then got out of the car to change
undies.

Regards,

Slip

[Ext User(Neil Fisher)]

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:07:03 +1300, Bugalugs
<bugalugs67@netscape.net!>, after considering some belly-button fluf,
wrote:

[...]

>
>Typical...look around for someone else to blame. Hint: who's foot was on
>the accelerator ?

Typical... blame the user. Who authorised her to be a learner on
public streets? Why, I assume it was the responsible statutary
authority. And, presumably, they followed the rules. So perhaps the
"system" does shoulder some blame after all - they "said" she was
"competent enough" to be put on a public street; that the risk was
"acceptable". If that's true, then the resulting carnage is also
clearly "acceptable" to the greater public, or our inestimable
politicians have stuffed up the legislation - again. If this sort of
thing in "unacceptable", it's hardly *her* fault, is it? She
presumably followed all the bureaucratic rules to get a permit, and
she's demonstrably a "learner". You don't send an apprentice to gaol
because they stuffed up - the tradesman bears the responsibility, do
they not?

Neil
---
Neil Fisher / Bob Young
Thundercords
personal opinion unless otherwise noted.
Looking for spark plug leads?
Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au

[Ext User(John Tserkezis)]

The Raven wrote:

> Importantly, having a basic understanding
> of how a car works and how to deal with common issues (oil, water, tyre
> changes, idiot lights, handling, engine operation) would make more people
> think/understand just what they are really doing.

You really have an overestimation of the intelligence of some of the idiots
out there don't you?

They'll fail, and then bleat to the media about their "right" to drive.
Nevermind the minor issues of how oil should be left to the domain of the
mechanic (even though they never take their shitbox to the mechanic anyway).

Of course, the fact you NEED some nouse to be in control of a vehicle is
irrelevant because the political cost is higher, and because they vote, they win.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(John Tserkezis)]

Neil Fisher wrote:

> You don't send an apprentice to gaol because they stuffed up -
> the tradesman bears the responsibility, do they not?

Two points:

1/ Tradesmen generally don't screw up to the point that it results in the
death of their customers, mainly because they're under instructions of people
who do same for a living - professionals.

2/ The tradesman/company wears the cost because THEY'RE the ones with the
most money, verses the 18yo apprentice who has NO money.



As opposed to driving, where they DO routinely kill people, under the
instructions of untrained non-professionals who have a plastic card saying
they're "good enough".
Both are Joe Blows who were not operating under a professional environment,
so either way, whoever you charge, both learner and instructor have no money
anyway.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(The Raven)]

"Slip" <sww@everywhere.com> wrote in message
news:13mkq2gf3vfc34f@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Daryl Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
> news:13mk59pptir201a@corp.supernews.com...
>> jackbadger56 wrote:
>>> In Sydney a learner driver is being charged with something regarding
>>> dangerous driving resulting in death. I remember seeing the accident
>>> at the time and witnesses seemed to think the driver hit the
>>> accelerator instead of the brake, panicked, planted her foot even
>>> further and ended up killing a pedestrian on the footpath.
>>> This raises some questions that I hadn't even considered before, like
>>> when being instructed, who is liable for any accidents? It's quite
>>> lawful to get behind the wheel of a car, accompanied by a licenced
>>> driver, while holding a permit, even though you have absolutely no
>>> fucking idea how to operate a vehicle. If legislation permits this
>>> scenario, why can the driver be charged in the event of an accident?
>>> The driver was originally from Sudan where apparently she'd never
>>> held a licence.
>>> I feel for the victim's family, and I'll admit that in the above case
>>> I'm not privvy to all the facts, but the hypothetical situation where
>>> you are allowed to drive on public roads when you haven't got a clue
>>> is something that needs addressing first.
>>>
>>> News story;
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yotsgb
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yqfk3c
>>
>> In a case like that I would be questioning the competence of the
>> "instructor".
>> I wouldn't take a learner anywhere near other traffic and pedestrians
>> unless I was confident they had some experience either with a
>> professional instructor in a dual control car or in an area like an
>> industrial estate on a weekend or another quiet area where there is
>> little or no traffic.
>> I gave a couple of driving lessons to a young cousin, I tried to get her
>> to do a U turn and she hit the accelerator too hard almost putting the EF
>> into a lamp post, we only missed it because I pushed the auto out of gear
>> and pulled on the handbrake.
>>
>> Daryl
>
> I've done that a couple of times myself, then got out of the car to change
> undies.
>
> Regards,
>
> Slip

If the law required every driver to undergo rigourous mandatory driver
testing I'd happily submit to it.

At the very least I would be gauranteed to unlearn at least one bad habit
and probably sharpen some skills....not to mention knowing that a
significant number of todays supposedly safe licensed drivers would find
themselves catching public transport.

I'm honest enough to admit my driving isn't perfect but it makes me shake my
head when I see so many significantly less competent drivers ignorantly
blathering down the road under a cloud of perceived safety (slow=safe, wipe
off 5 and survive, super hesitant is better, etc etc).

[Ext User(Albm&ctd)]

In article <fkdhiu$6uk$1@registered.motzarella.org>, me@privacy.net
says...
> I've taught quite a few to drive, and the very first thing I do is figure
> out a process with the learner re what to do if things aren't quite right.
> That's done on a very quiet piece of road. Very.
>
A simply flick switch in hand to ground the coil would probably help, no
spark, no go.

Al
--
When schools of fish were studied, it was found that the leaders had
brain damage.
We, the public should therefore demand a similar study be carried out on
our leaders.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[Ext User(Albm&ctd)]

In article <476b0a02$0$13919$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid says...
> Neil Fisher wrote:
>
> > You don't send an apprentice to gaol because they stuffed up -
> > the tradesman bears the responsibility, do they not?
>
> Two points:
>
> 1/ Tradesmen generally don't screw up to the point that it results in the
> death of their customers, mainly because they're under instructions of people
> who do same for a living - professionals.
>
Mechanical shit is a vocation, not a profession. A simple twist in a
flexible brake hose when installing a caliper could kill if the tyre rubs
through the hose. An unsupervised apprentice is an accident waiting to
happen, and yes they are left alone to fuck with peoples cars for profit
reasons. Mind you I've been away from dealer crap for quite some time.
Thank fuck for that.

> 2/ The tradesman/company wears the cost because THEY'RE the ones with the
> most money, verses the 18yo apprentice who has NO money.
>
Well yeah, you've read 'the mechanic and the law' written by lawyers no
doubt. You're not 100% correct but close.
>
> As opposed to driving, where they DO routinely kill people, under the
> instructions of untrained non-professionals who have a plastic card saying
> they're "good enough".

Plenty of dumb crunt so called professional instructors out there too
from observation.

> Both are Joe Blows who were not operating under a professional environment,
> so either way, whoever you charge, both learner and instructor have no money
> anyway.
>
True in most cases I'd reckon. So all learners should not have their
first lessons where they endanger the public and have to pass a
competency test at a track before being let loose on public roads,
then being guided by professional idiot or related idiot.

I witnessed a profession fool instructing a learner to do a 3 point turn
at the entrance to a street at a busy shopping centre and another
profession fool in their vehicle alone without pupil involved in road
rage.

Al
--
When schools of fish were studied, it was found that the leaders had
brain damage.
We, the public should therefore demand a similar study be carried out on
our leaders.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[Ext User(Albm&ctd)]

In article <Cotaj.25872$CN4.16572@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
frosty@iceworks.org says...
> right into the path of a fully loaded semi with a fucking great bulldozer on
> it, no-where to go and people were killed
>
Ouch, bet that hurt them darned animal lovers for a moment or two. Could
have been worse, might have run a motorcycle off the road and simply
driven off.

Al
--
When schools of fish were studied, it was found that the leaders had
brain damage.
We, the public should therefore demand a similar study be carried out on
our leaders.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html