Here's a little tidbit to brighten your day

[Ext User()]

http://news.smh.com.au/big-brother-speed-control-to-be-trialled/20080109-1kw7.html

Of course Victoria is the first to trial a system that automatically keeps
you under the speed limit.

[Ext User(John Tserkezis)]

news wrote:

> http://news.smh.com.au/big-brother-speed-control-to-be-trialled/20080109-1kw7.html
> Of course Victoria is the first to trial a system that automatically keeps
> you under the speed limit.

And I didn't even see the words "Harold Scruby" mentioned once. Wow.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(Atheist Chaplain)]

<news> wrote in message news:4783cdd9$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> http://news.smh.com.au/big-brother-speed-control-to-be-trialled/20080109-1kw7.html
>
> Of course Victoria is the first to trial a system that automatically keeps
> you under the speed limit.
>

I just ordered one of these, http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8758
forcing a car to lose power for whatever reason is, in my opinion a
dangerous move and more likely to result in deaths than save lives.

--
"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

[Ext User(John Tserkezis)]

Atheist Chaplain wrote:

> I just ordered one of these, http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8758
> forcing a car to lose power for whatever reason is, in my opinion a
> dangerous move and more likely to result in deaths than save lives.

I'm dubious as to how useful it is to sample speed via GPS. It's REALLY
easy to defeat, the jammer works, but it also kills satnav if you happen to be
using that.

Easier still, is a bit of tinfoil over the antenna. Can't be that hard to
implement, and certainly a LOT cheaper.

If that's not technical enough for you, defeating the speed control
mechanism might be easier if it's a carby vehicle (one screwdriver). Or, if
it's done via the ECU, wirecutters win every time.

I really don't see this being a problem, considering there are some who are
happy to continue to drive after they lose their licence, rego, or whatever.
Heck even one guy was booked four times for speeding in less than a day recently.

If they're willing to go this far to continue to drive, what makes GovCo
think a bit of electronics and legislation is going to work.

Besides, considering many of the more modern cars have ABS (thus wheel speed
sensors as standard), why GPS and not interface with the wheel directly? It's
got to be a lot cheaper. Or does that make too much sense?

--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(atec77)]

John Tserkezis wrote:
> Atheist Chaplain wrote:
>
>> I just ordered one of these,
>> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8758
>> forcing a car to lose power for whatever reason is, in my opinion a
>> dangerous move and more likely to result in deaths than save lives.
>
> I'm dubious as to how useful it is to sample speed via GPS. It's
> REALLY easy to defeat, the jammer works, but it also kills satnav if you
> happen to be using that.
>
> Easier still, is a bit of tinfoil over the antenna. Can't be that hard
> to implement, and certainly a LOT cheaper.
>
> If that's not technical enough for you, defeating the speed control
> mechanism might be easier if it's a carby vehicle (one screwdriver).
> Or, if it's done via the ECU, wirecutters win every time.
>
> I really don't see this being a problem, considering there are some who
> are happy to continue to drive after they lose their licence, rego, or
> whatever. Heck even one guy was booked four times for speeding in less
> than a day recently.
>
> If they're willing to go this far to continue to drive, what makes
> GovCo think a bit of electronics and legislation is going to work.
>
> Besides, considering many of the more modern cars have ABS (thus wheel
> speed sensors as standard), why GPS and not interface with the wheel
> directly? It's got to be a lot cheaper. Or does that make too much sense?
>
Just asked a mate of mine here in Brisbane , he has worked on and
repaired gps systems for years.. he just laffed and said reflash..
shouldn't take mire than 20 minutes to alter the"referance" and there
fore the speed recognition unless the unit is completly devoid of
interface ports which is self defeating .

[Ext User(Atheist Chaplain)]

"John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:478410d0$0$12542$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> Atheist Chaplain wrote:
>
>> I just ordered one of these,
>> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8758
>> forcing a car to lose power for whatever reason is, in my opinion a
>> dangerous move and more likely to result in deaths than save lives.
>
> I'm dubious as to how useful it is to sample speed via GPS. It's REALLY
> easy to defeat, the jammer works, but it also kills satnav if you happen
> to be using that.
>
> Easier still, is a bit of tinfoil over the antenna. Can't be that hard
> to implement, and certainly a LOT cheaper.
>
> If that's not technical enough for you, defeating the speed control
> mechanism might be easier if it's a carby vehicle (one screwdriver). Or,
> if it's done via the ECU, wirecutters win every time.
>

well the thing with something like that is you only turn it on when your on
the open road and the need for a quick overtake is more important than some
half baked politicians idea on speed control, when you get to the next town,
turn it off and your satnav works again, no fiddling with antennas, pulling
fuses or cutting wires.

--
"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg


> I really don't see this being a problem, considering there are some who
> are happy to continue to drive after they lose their licence, rego, or
> whatever. Heck even one guy was booked four times for speeding in less
> than a day recently.
>
> If they're willing to go this far to continue to drive, what makes GovCo
> think a bit of electronics and legislation is going to work.
>
> Besides, considering many of the more modern cars have ABS (thus wheel
> speed sensors as standard), why GPS and not interface with the wheel
> directly? It's got to be a lot cheaper. Or does that make too much
> sense?
>
> --
> Linux Registered User # 302622
> <http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(John Tserkezis)]

atec77 wrote:

> Just asked a mate of mine here in Brisbane , he has worked on and
> repaired gps systems for years.. he just laffed and said reflash..
> shouldn't take mire than 20 minutes to alter the"referance" and there
> fore the speed recognition

It's not quite that easy.

Firstly, one point comes to mind that conflicts with my last statement about
using the wheel sensor as the speed sense element.
The proposed system keeps a database of speed limits across all roads, and
limits you to that speed, depending on which road you're on. You need GPS for
this, as a simple wheel sensor only tells you how fast you're going, not where
you are.
You NEED GPS to do this, and a wheel sensor alone isn't going to work.

As for the wonderful locational speed limit database:

Speed limit databases are not really new, it's been around for a while, and
has been used for smarter autorouting systems to more accurately estimate how
long it's going to take for you to get from A to B. Because of accuracy
issues, one section of road being 70 instead of 80 will be largely irrelevant,
because the time difference for your trip will be so small it won't really
matter - it is only a time *estimate* after all.

Great you say. Except, that as of a few years ago, there was ONLY ONE
database available at the time, coverage was sporadic at best, and accuracy
was flawed due to more recent road changes and the database not being updated.

This is not an issue of how long it takes to get from your place to the
mother-in-laws. This is a liability issue, where the super-duper speed
limited vehicle *might* be able to travel at the database specified speed of
100Km/h, but no updates have been available since the change to 80. Oops.
Doesn't matter what the road signs say, the "wonder box" was supposed to keep
the offender in check- but didn't.

How long do you think it's going to take before the liability issues force
them to "fix" the problem.
Except the problem can't be fixed. The only way to really "fix" it, is to
have an accurate database, and if NO-ONE has been able to do things like keep
streets up to date, then they have NO chance to keep up-to-date a database
that is so hopelessly inaccurate, it's currently barely good for ESTIMATES on
your time of arrival to your mother in laws.

The "system", while technically doable, is not feasible.


And to answer your question, if your mate knew anything about how
proprietary systems are handled, you have no chance in hell of working it out.
If it's popular enough, someone will reverse engineer it and work out how to
disable it.

But as I said earlier in the thread, when a screwdriver or wire cutters can
do the job in less than 30 seconds, why do you need many, many man hours to
plug it into a PC do it?

> unless the unit is completly devoid of interface ports which is self defeating.

That's not always true either. My guess is that the only time they're going
to interface to the box, is to change the setting, and perhaps update the
speed location database. Since the box will only be in a temporary
environment, (1-2 years or so), they'll update and adjust it "at the factory"
inbetween jobs.

That means they need to open the box, unless they want to supply an
interface on the outside of the box.

Likely, but you still have to reverse engineer it if you want to talk to it.

I'm still hedging my bets on the screwdriver and wirecutters.
They might not be "smart" tools, but hell, they get the job done.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(John Tserkezis)]

Atheist Chaplain wrote:

> well the thing with something like that is you only turn it on when your on
> the open road and the need for a quick overtake is more important than some
> half baked politicians idea on speed control,

WOT disables the speed limiting so you can overtake or lane change
(according to the reports).
That's what I mentioned in aus.motorcycles too, why have a system that
limits your speed, when flooring it will disable it?
That's worse than the Government's ISP filtering bullshit. No phone calls
required to disable this, just pedal to the metal. Easy.

> when you get to the next town,
> turn it off and your satnav works again, no fiddling with antennas, pulling
> fuses or cutting wires.

Does that sound stupid to you? It does to me.

Name ONE person who's going to "temporarily" disable their speed limitation,
when it's never checked except during install time, and un-installation time.

Like the hire vehicles of old, the speedo (odometer) was disabled soon after
leaving the place, and reinstated before return.

Anyone who is going to disable it, will either simply unplug it (no tools!)
or knobble the mechanicals with a screwdriver, or just cut the bastard, once
they realise how much effort is required in doing it neatly.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

[Ext User(Daryl Walford)]

Atheist Chaplain wrote:
> <news> wrote in message news:4783cdd9$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> http://news.smh.com.au/big-brother-speed-control-to-be-trialled/20080109-1kw7.html
>>
>> Of course Victoria is the first to trial a system that automatically keeps
>> you under the speed limit.
>>
>
> I just ordered one of these, http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8758
> forcing a car to lose power for whatever reason is, in my opinion a
> dangerous move and more likely to result in deaths than save lives.
>

LOL, that looks like a good device to have.
I haven't seen any of those new systems but the I've been told its easy
to disable the GPS tracking thats already fitted to many trucks,
disconnecting the antenna disables the system and can even damage the
transmitter so they would need to make the systems tamper proof if thats
possible.


Daryl

[Ext User(atec77)]

John Tserkezis wrote:
> atec77 wrote:
>
>> Just asked a mate of mine here in Brisbane , he has worked on and
>> repaired gps systems for years.. he just laffed and said reflash..
>> shouldn't take mire than 20 minutes to alter the"referance" and there
>> fore the speed recognition
>
> It's not quite that easy.
>
> Firstly, one point comes to mind that conflicts with my last statement
> about using the wheel sensor as the speed sense element.
> The proposed system keeps a database of speed limits across all roads,
> and limits you to that speed, depending on which road you're on. You
> need GPS for this, as a simple wheel sensor only tells you how fast
> you're going, not where you are.
> You NEED GPS to do this, and a wheel sensor alone isn't going to work.
>
> As for the wonderful locational speed limit database:
>
> Speed limit databases are not really new, it's been around for a while,
> and has been used for smarter autorouting systems to more accurately
> estimate how long it's going to take for you to get from A to B.
> Because of accuracy issues, one section of road being 70 instead of 80
> will be largely irrelevant, because the time difference for your trip
> will be so small it won't really matter - it is only a time *estimate*
> after all.
>
> Great you say. Except, that as of a few years ago, there was ONLY ONE
> database available at the time, coverage was sporadic at best, and
> accuracy was flawed due to more recent road changes and the database not
> being updated.
>
> This is not an issue of how long it takes to get from your place to the
> mother-in-laws. This is a liability issue, where the super-duper speed
> limited vehicle *might* be able to travel at the database specified
> speed of 100Km/h, but no updates have been available since the change to
> 80. Oops. Doesn't matter what the road signs say, the "wonder box" was
> supposed to keep the offender in check- but didn't.
>
> How long do you think it's going to take before the liability issues
> force them to "fix" the problem.
> Except the problem can't be fixed. The only way to really "fix" it, is
> to have an accurate database, and if NO-ONE has been able to do things
> like keep streets up to date, then they have NO chance to keep
> up-to-date a database that is so hopelessly inaccurate, it's currently
> barely good for ESTIMATES on your time of arrival to your mother in laws.
>
> The "system", while technically doable, is not feasible.
>
>
> And to answer your question, if your mate knew anything about how
> proprietary systems are handled, you have no chance in hell of working
> it out. If it's popular enough, someone will reverse engineer it and
> work out how to disable it.
>
> But as I said earlier in the thread, when a screwdriver or wire cutters
> can do the job in less than 30 seconds, why do you need many, many man
> hours to plug it into a PC do it?
>
>> unless the unit is completly devoid of interface ports which is self
>> defeating.
>
> That's not always true either. My guess is that the only time they're
> going to interface to the box, is to change the setting, and perhaps
> update the speed location database. Since the box will only be in a
> temporary environment, (1-2 years or so), they'll update and adjust it
> "at the factory" inbetween jobs.
>
> That means they need to open the box, unless they want to supply an
> interface on the outside of the box.
>
> Likely, but you still have to reverse engineer it if you want to talk
> to it.
>
> I'm still hedging my bets on the screwdriver and wirecutters.
> They might not be "smart" tools, but hell, they get the job done.
Apart from the obvious mechanical mods I reakon a good dose of rf in my
workshop would tend to bugger it up big time , I wonder how it would
stop a motor on mechanical control with no ignition or a magneto.. bedly
I think , anyway it's just another lobouring wank for money theft.

[Ext User(Atheist Chaplain)]

"John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:478446e2$0$26468$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> Atheist Chaplain wrote:
>
>> well the thing with something like that is you only turn it on when your
>> on
>> the open road and the need for a quick overtake is more important than
>> some
>> half baked politicians idea on speed control,
>
> WOT disables the speed limiting so you can overtake or lane change
> (according to the reports).
> That's what I mentioned in aus.motorcycles too, why have a system that
> limits your speed, when flooring it will disable it?
> That's worse than the Government's ISP filtering bullshit. No phone
> calls required to disable this, just pedal to the metal. Easy.
>
>> when you get to the next town,
>> turn it off and your satnav works again, no fiddling with antennas,
>> pulling
>> fuses or cutting wires.
>
> Does that sound stupid to you? It does to me.
>
> Name ONE person who's going to "temporarily" disable their speed
> limitation, when it's never checked except during install time, and
> un-installation time.
>

you dont have many friends do you, I can think of at least 3 friends that
would use something like a GPS blocker to *Temporarily* disable a speed
controle device such as the one about to be tested. and why do I think this,
well because if you go cutting wires or putting bits of foil on your
antennae and Mr Plod pulls you over for speeding in a speed limited car, you
can more easily talk your way out of a ticket if there are not signs of
obvious tampering, where as having a cut wire or bits of tin foil near the
device is a dead give away, you use your destructive methods and I will just
turn the GPS tracking off with mine :-)

> Like the hire vehicles of old, the speedo (odometer) was disabled soon
> after leaving the place, and reinstated before return.
>
> Anyone who is going to disable it, will either simply unplug it (no
> tools!) or knobble the mechanicals with a screwdriver, or just cut the
> bastard, once they realise how much effort is required in doing it neatly.

then My plod orders your speeding car to the nearest *authorised* testing
centre and they discover you have deliberately nobbled the device, how big a
fine do you think the Govt of the day will impose for doing that :-)


> --
> Linux Registered User # 302622
> <http://counter.li.org>



--
God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

[Ext User(Marts)]

John Tserkezis wrote...

> The proposed system keeps a database of speed limits across all roads, and
> limits you to that speed, depending on which road you're on. You need GPS for

The latest Sensis/Whereis maps for GPSes have this feature now. The last updates
didn't.

Generally they're pretty accurate but, and this is a fairly big but, the speed
zone doesn't change straight away. On my navigator you're usually a good 100m
into the next zone before it updates.

So, if they implement this system and then start setting up speed cameras inside
that transition area, they'll reap megabux if the car's speed is being
controlled by these systems.

Of course they'll say that it's your responsibility to keep an eye on the road
and to watch the speed restriction changes....

[Ext User(Athol)]

Marts <marts_57@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> The latest Sensis/Whereis maps for GPSes have this feature now. The last updates
> didn't.

> Generally they're pretty accurate but, and this is a fairly big but, the speed
> zone doesn't change straight away. On my navigator you're usually a good 100m
> into the next zone before it updates.

I don't know where you are but I can comprehensively state that sensis data is
not reliably accurate across the majority of roads that I'm familiar with.

I've sent them corrections and they don't fix the errors. On one occasion, the
correction was apparently put through (as reflected by google maps, etc) then
immediately reversed.

> So, if they implement this system and then start setting up speed cameras inside
> that transition area, they'll reap megabux if the car's speed is being
> controlled by these systems.

> Of course they'll say that it's your responsibility to keep an eye on the road
> and to watch the speed restriction changes....

IIRC, Bernd posted some time ago about a system in EU that tried to toll
trucks by GPS. It kept thinking that they had turned onto the parallel or
cross roads where there were no interchanges... Sometimes, it thought that
vehicles were on a toll road when they weren't and other times, they did the
opposite.

Any system that can't reliably work out what road you're on is doomed to
failure.

That's aside from the fact that the system will dramatically increase the crash
rate due to increased fatigue. Having the vehicle regulate vehicle speed will
not only increase the dangerous "platooning" effect on freeways, but will also
give the driver even less to concentrate on whilst driving.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.