Why on earth are 16:9 adverts being sent in 4:3 letterbox!

[Logan C]

Hi everyone

I've sent a similar email to the DBA and I thought I'd send a message
here to get some feedback.

When I purchased a STB in Nov 03 after moving here from the UK and
connected to my widescreen Philips TV and started watching TV, I was
greatly appreciative of watching nice, clean 16:9 broadcasts. But to
my dismay, across *all* the networks, when they have an advertisement
which has been filmed in 16:9, it is broadcast as a 4:3 letter box
picture! I do understand that if it is not 4:3 or even 14:9 safe,
then it can't be cropped without it affecting viewability for the 4:3
TV owners. Nonetheless - you can't send it as a 4:3 letterbox image
to the Digital viewers because for the widescreen viewers (and those
who prefer to watch 4:3 letterbox on a 4:3 TV) we end up with four
black bars - sides *and* top/bottom - on an image that could be
transmitted perfectly if the Australian networks took notice of one
critical DVB-T standard which is the aspect ratio flag. The networks
are trying to push people to Widescreen and the Digital Free to View
network but they aren't even sending 16:9 adverts in 16:9!

The aspect ratio flag has (to my knowledge) three options. 4:3, 16:9,
and zoom. Some countries have adopted the "permanent 16:9"
transmission, like Australia has, and since Australia has decided to
broadcast in permanent 16:9 regardless of content (something some
countries overseas do not do such as the UK - you broadcast the 16:9
flag when you have 16:9 content - not pop a 4:3 image in the middle of
the screen and leave the 16:9 flag up - but I digress) then they need
to send the "zoom" flag in the trasmission which tells the STB to zoom
on the 4:3 letterbox image and make it pretty 16:9 for the widescreen
owners. It's not a hard task and its a simple tickbox on the
advertising material that when its transmitted - send the flag. It's
seamless to the end viewer - like it should be.

I could not believe it when the first advert came up - I think it is
the Subaru Symmetrical AWD advert - and it was broadcast 4:3 letterbox
and I had 4 black bars.

Come on Aussie networks, if you are going to do DTV, do it properly
and not this lazy attempt of it.

[Kevin Hendrikssen]

"Logan C" <logan@thelogan.net> wrote in message
news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om...

[rant snipped]

> I could not believe it when the first advert came up - I think it is
> the Subaru Symmetrical AWD advert - and it was broadcast 4:3 letterbox
> and I had 4 black bars.
>
> Come on Aussie networks, if you are going to do DTV, do it properly
> and not this lazy attempt of it.

Um, these are 4:3 letterboxed ads, and they're a legacy of our 4:3
background, or cheap advertisers who didn't want to make 16:9 ads (or don't
know better).

They were deliberately shot like that to look "cool" on the old system.

They're only ads!!!!

[Not for publication]

logan@thelogan.net (Logan C) wrote in
news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om:

> The aspect ratio flag has (to my knowledge) three options. 4:3, 16:9,
> and zoom. Some countries have adopted the "permanent 16:9"
> transmission, like Australia has, and since Australia has decided to
> broadcast in permanent 16:9 regardless of content (something some
> countries overseas do not do such as the UK - you broadcast the 16:9
> flag when you have 16:9 content - not pop a 4:3 image in the middle of
> the screen and leave the 16:9 flag up - but I digress) then they need
> to send the "zoom" flag in the trasmission which tells the STB to zoom
> on the 4:3 letterbox image and make it pretty 16:9 for the widescreen
> owners. It's not a hard task and its a simple tickbox on the
> advertising material that when its transmitted - send the flag. It's
> seamless to the end viewer - like it should be.

I don't understand why digital TV is not treated in exactly the same way as
DVDs: the underlying technology is the same, only the transmission medium
is different. DVD players are capable of handling both 4:3 and widescreen
display devices and maximising presentation on both for 4:3 and anamorphic
widescreen sources, so there is already a precedent for consumer acceptance
(evidenced by the rapid uptake of DVD players) and STBs should technically
be capable of similar.

Unfortunately, 'permanent 16:9' compromises quality for both 4:3 and 16:9
end-user displays when a significant proportion of source material appears
to be 4:3, so no-one is happy.

If the industry is serious about promoting digital TV, then they need to
piggyback on the DVD paradigm for maximum acceptance, IMO, and that means
flagged 4:3 and letterboxed transmissions in a 4:3 and anamorphic format as
appropriate to the source, plus STBs that have output scaling functionality
the same as DVD players. Including pan & scan flags on anamorphic
broadcasts for those who prefer the image to fill their 4:3 TV would not go
astray either.

I expect the majority of consumers that switch to digital TV will do so
after becoming DVD converts and will also prefer to retain their
existing 4:3 TV (due to the much lower cost of purchasing a DVD player or
basic STB compared to the cost of purchasing a widescreen TV), so it makes
sense to accommodate them as much as possible with something they are
familiar with, in the transition to completely 16:9 source. Imagine their
frustration when faced with a postage stamp image in the center of their
4:3 TV, under the current digital TV arrangement for some source material,
after having been used to full screen analogue TV and full screen/letterbox
DVD: it would seem like a backward step in viewing pleasure and not the
giant leap forward that has been promoted.

[tony_h]

Not for publication wrote:
> logan@thelogan.net (Logan C) wrote in
> news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om:
>
>> The aspect ratio flag has (to my knowledge) three options. 4:3,
>> 16:9, and zoom. Some countries have adopted the "permanent 16:9"
>> transmission, like Australia has, and since Australia has decided to
>> broadcast in permanent 16:9 regardless of content (something some
>> countries overseas do not do such as the UK - you broadcast the 16:9
>> flag when you have 16:9 content - not pop a 4:3 image in the middle
>> of the screen and leave the 16:9 flag up - but I digress) then they
>> need to send the "zoom" flag in the trasmission which tells the STB
>> to zoom on the 4:3 letterbox image and make it pretty 16:9 for the
>> widescreen owners. It's not a hard task and its a simple tickbox on
>> the advertising material that when its transmitted - send the flag.
>> It's seamless to the end viewer - like it should be.
>
> I don't understand why digital TV is not treated in exactly the same
> way as DVDs: the underlying technology is the same, only the
> transmission medium is different. DVD players are capable of
> handling both 4:3 and widescreen display devices and maximising
> presentation on both for 4:3 and anamorphic widescreen sources, so
> there is already a precedent for consumer acceptance (evidenced by
> the rapid uptake of DVD players) and STBs should technically be
> capable of similar.
>
> Unfortunately, 'permanent 16:9' compromises quality for both 4:3 and
> 16:9 end-user displays when a significant proportion of source
> material appears to be 4:3, so no-one is happy.


Oh yes, I have pushed this point a few times on the DVB forums, and have
been shot down in flames that projector owners don't have autoswitching
capabilities and so prefer the pillarboxed 4:3 material so nothing needs
touching at all on the projector. I reckon that projectors and viewing
devices that claim "digital ready" should not be fit for sale if they don't
support WSS signalling...
My Topfield STB sends WSS via VBI and SCART, and my 4:3 Loewe TV
autoswitches on either of these signals, and so I always end up with the
best resolution picture on the TV if, say, a 4:3 broadcast is actually sent,
or a 16:9 broadcast is sent. The only 4:3 broadcast on digital is D4-EXPO
in Sydney (UHF35 I believe). On all the other "pseudo4:3" pillarboxed
broadcasts, I am giving the Topfield 16:9/Letterbox/4:3centrecut button a
big workout to switch to centrecut to avoid the postage stamped affect, and
then I unfortunately have to toggle it back when channel surfing, or when
seeing if a particular commercial is actually filmed in widescreen or not.

As for why advertisements are 4:3 even though they are framed 16:9, as was
said, this is how they film them to look sexy on analogue, although if the
WSS flags were dealt with correctly, and all the stations had decent ARCing
equipment, there should be no reason why it couldn't be sent 16:9 fullscreen
to digital.

I really only think the ARCing is paid attention to for programs, rather
than ads.

Cheers
Tony

[Logan C]

Not for publication, I quite agree. When the original format is 16:9
is not croppable (4:3 safe or 14:9 safe)... broadcast it as 16:9 on
the digital platform. Each persons STB is configured to either 4:3
P/S, 4:3 LBox or 16:9 depending on their display device. The choice
of display is then up to the individual depending on how they want to
view it - like it should be and like it is in almost every other DVB-T
transmitting country. Sending a 16:9 format advertisement such as the
Subaru advert in 4:3 letterbox on a "intelligent" transmission medium
which is able to differentiate between formats makes the advertiser
and the network look like a hack, cheap attempt at what can be a
flawless delivery medium and devalues the whole digital platform since
this is what it's primary claim to fame is. If you want 4:3 viewers
to convert to digital or want 4:3 viewers to upgrade to widescreen -
don't disadvantage them with a postage stamp view which is completely
unnecessary.

You may think I am ranting, but believe me, when you've seen it done
perfectly in almost every overseas country and take it for granted as
standard, and then see perfectly 16:9 formatted footage transmitted in
4:3 LBox *on a 16:9 TV* it makes a complete mockery of the DVB
platform and whoever is in charge of implementing it in this country.

Not for publication <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94825E7832EFFnoonenowherecom@211.29.133.50>...
> logan@thelogan.net (Logan C) wrote in
> news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om:
>
> > The aspect ratio flag has (to my knowledge) three options. 4:3, 16:9,
> > and zoom. Some countries have adopted the "permanent 16:9"
> > transmission, like Australia has, and since Australia has decided to
> > broadcast in permanent 16:9 regardless of content (something some
> > countries overseas do not do such as the UK - you broadcast the 16:9
> > flag when you have 16:9 content - not pop a 4:3 image in the middle of
> > the screen and leave the 16:9 flag up - but I digress) then they need
> > to send the "zoom" flag in the trasmission which tells the STB to zoom
> > on the 4:3 letterbox image and make it pretty 16:9 for the widescreen
> > owners. It's not a hard task and its a simple tickbox on the
> > advertising material that when its transmitted - send the flag. It's
> > seamless to the end viewer - like it should be.
>
> I don't understand why digital TV is not treated in exactly the same way as
> DVDs: the underlying technology is the same, only the transmission medium
> is different. DVD players are capable of handling both 4:3 and widescreen
> display devices and maximising presentation on both for 4:3 and anamorphic
> widescreen sources, so there is already a precedent for consumer acceptance
> (evidenced by the rapid uptake of DVD players) and STBs should technically
> be capable of similar.
>
> Unfortunately, 'permanent 16:9' compromises quality for both 4:3 and 16:9
> end-user displays when a significant proportion of source material appears
> to be 4:3, so no-one is happy.
>
> If the industry is serious about promoting digital TV, then they need to
> piggyback on the DVD paradigm for maximum acceptance, IMO, and that means
> flagged 4:3 and letterboxed transmissions in a 4:3 and anamorphic format as
> appropriate to the source, plus STBs that have output scaling functionality
> the same as DVD players. Including pan & scan flags on anamorphic
> broadcasts for those who prefer the image to fill their 4:3 TV would not go
> astray either.
>
> I expect the majority of consumers that switch to digital TV will do so
> after becoming DVD converts and will also prefer to retain their
> existing 4:3 TV (due to the much lower cost of purchasing a DVD player or
> basic STB compared to the cost of purchasing a widescreen TV), so it makes
> sense to accommodate them as much as possible with something they are
> familiar with, in the transition to completely 16:9 source. Imagine their
> frustration when faced with a postage stamp image in the center of their
> 4:3 TV, under the current digital TV arrangement for some source material,
> after having been used to full screen analogue TV and full screen/letterbox
> DVD: it would seem like a backward step in viewing pleasure and not the
> giant leap forward that has been promoted.

[ct]

It's because the Australian networks are lazy and the Aust govt did not
mandate all new material be produced as 16:9 (14:9 safe) as the UK did from
middle of 1999. If that occured here, $even would have been forced by the
govt to produce the tennis as 16:9. The UK govt even banned the sale of 4:3
sets other than 34cm portables, meaning a large number of large 4:3
sets/tubes on sale here are cast off's, making Australia yet again live up
to it's usual reputation as the world's dumping ground yet again. Only the
ABC, $even, Prime & SC-Ten are capable of active ARCing
interstitials/commercials, with $even doing less so. Even all TVC's in the
UK had to be 16:9 from the middle of 1999, but no, not here, can't upset the
advertising industry out here. For freaky sake, some agencies are still
delivering TVC's on one inch spot reels. This country has a long way to go
for sure.

ct

"Logan C" <logan@thelogan.net> wrote in message
news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om...
> Hi everyone
>
> I've sent a similar email to the DBA and I thought I'd send a message
> here to get some feedback.
>
> When I purchased a STB in Nov 03 after moving here from the UK and
> connected to my widescreen Philips TV and started watching TV, I was
> greatly appreciative of watching nice, clean 16:9 broadcasts. But to
> my dismay, across *all* the networks, when they have an advertisement
> which has been filmed in 16:9, it is broadcast as a 4:3 letter box
> picture! I do understand that if it is not 4:3 or even 14:9 safe,
> then it can't be cropped without it affecting viewability for the 4:3
> TV owners. Nonetheless - you can't send it as a 4:3 letterbox image
> to the Digital viewers because for the widescreen viewers (and those
> who prefer to watch 4:3 letterbox on a 4:3 TV) we end up with four
> black bars - sides *and* top/bottom - on an image that could be
> transmitted perfectly if the Australian networks took notice of one
> critical DVB-T standard which is the aspect ratio flag. The networks
> are trying to push people to Widescreen and the Digital Free to View
> network but they aren't even sending 16:9 adverts in 16:9!
>
> The aspect ratio flag has (to my knowledge) three options. 4:3, 16:9,
> and zoom. Some countries have adopted the "permanent 16:9"
> transmission, like Australia has, and since Australia has decided to
> broadcast in permanent 16:9 regardless of content (something some
> countries overseas do not do such as the UK - you broadcast the 16:9
> flag when you have 16:9 content - not pop a 4:3 image in the middle of
> the screen and leave the 16:9 flag up - but I digress) then they need
> to send the "zoom" flag in the trasmission which tells the STB to zoom
> on the 4:3 letterbox image and make it pretty 16:9 for the widescreen
> owners. It's not a hard task and its a simple tickbox on the
> advertising material that when its transmitted - send the flag. It's
> seamless to the end viewer - like it should be.
>
> I could not believe it when the first advert came up - I think it is
> the Subaru Symmetrical AWD advert - and it was broadcast 4:3 letterbox
> and I had 4 black bars.
>
> Come on Aussie networks, if you are going to do DTV, do it properly
> and not this lazy attempt of it.

[Russ]

"Logan C" <logan@thelogan.net> wrote in message
news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om...
> Hi everyone
>
> I could not believe it when the first advert came up - I think it is
> the Subaru Symmetrical AWD advert - and it was broadcast 4:3 letterbox
> and I had 4 black bars.
>
> Come on Aussie networks, if you are going to do DTV, do it properly
> and not this lazy attempt of it.

It most likely isn't the broadcaster, rather the production company. I know
from personal experience that we were shooting and posting in 16:9 for a
year or two before digital broadcasts, so TVC masters were sent as 4:3 with
a letterbox. As digital started we often enquired with the stations as to
whether they could take a 16:9 release dub, but we were always told to send
a 4:3 - I've seen quite a few 16:9 ads go out on analogue that haven't been
ARC'ed leaving the viewer with tall, squeezed people.

From a production company's point of view, you'll get a lot less grief from
the advertising agency sending out 4:3, mainly 'cause almost noone (who
matters - the client or agency heads) has digital TVs. That will change, but
don't hold your breath.

Russ.

[David Z]

"ct" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2m3Tb.38349$Wa.11021@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> It's because the Australian networks are lazy and the Aust govt did not
> mandate all new material be produced as 16:9 (14:9 safe) as the UK did
from
> middle of 1999. If that occured here, $even would have been forced by the
> govt to produce the tennis as 16:9. The UK govt even banned the sale of
4:3
> sets other than 34cm portables, meaning a large number of large 4:3

Not true. Just checked out Sony.co.uk and they also have 21" (51cm) 4:3
sets advertised.

[Byron John Forbes]

LOL. As though there are many people/things in this country that do what
they're supposaed to do. ROTFL. Welcome to 21st century Australia. Oh well,
at least your far from that hollywood royalty over there now. Can't have
your cake and eat it...................yet.

"Logan C" <logan@thelogan.net> wrote in message
news:494380be.0401310906.54c78e40@posting.google.c om...
> Hi everyone
>
> I've sent a similar email to the DBA and I thought I'd send a message
> here to get some feedback.
>
> When I purchased a STB in Nov 03 after moving here from the UK and
> connected to my widescreen Philips TV and started watching TV, I was
> greatly appreciative of watching nice, clean 16:9 broadcasts. But to
> my dismay, across *all* the networks, when they have an advertisement
> which has been filmed in 16:9, it is broadcast as a 4:3 letter box
> picture! I do understand that if it is not 4:3 or even 14:9 safe,
> then it can't be cropped without it affecting viewability for the 4:3
> TV owners. Nonetheless - you can't send it as a 4:3 letterbox image
> to the Digital viewers because for the widescreen viewers (and those
> who prefer to watch 4:3 letterbox on a 4:3 TV) we end up with four
> black bars - sides *and* top/bottom - on an image that could be
> transmitted perfectly if the Australian networks took notice of one
> critical DVB-T standard which is the aspect ratio flag. The networks
> are trying to push people to Widescreen and the Digital Free to View
> network but they aren't even sending 16:9 adverts in 16:9!
>
> The aspect ratio flag has (to my knowledge) three options. 4:3, 16:9,
> and zoom. Some countries have adopted the "permanent 16:9"
> transmission, like Australia has, and since Australia has decided to
> broadcast in permanent 16:9 regardless of content (something some
> countries overseas do not do such as the UK - you broadcast the 16:9
> flag when you have 16:9 content - not pop a 4:3 image in the middle of
> the screen and leave the 16:9 flag up - but I digress) then they need
> to send the "zoom" flag in the trasmission which tells the STB to zoom
> on the 4:3 letterbox image and make it pretty 16:9 for the widescreen
> owners. It's not a hard task and its a simple tickbox on the
> advertising material that when its transmitted - send the flag. It's
> seamless to the end viewer - like it should be.
>
> I could not believe it when the first advert came up - I think it is
> the Subaru Symmetrical AWD advert - and it was broadcast 4:3 letterbox
> and I had 4 black bars.
>
> Come on Aussie networks, if you are going to do DTV, do it properly
> and not this lazy attempt of it.

[JB]

I'll apologise in advance if I'm on the wrong track here...

I just purchased a Vision Plus DTV card, and was feeding it to both a
monitor and a Toshiba 4:3 rear projection TV. The display on the monitor was
excellent, and the TV wasn't too bad either with the widescreen broadcasts.
What had me totally bemused though, was the fact that any transmission of
4:3 images (be it the SBS news or whatever), came up with a small image.
What usually filled the 4:3 screen was now only using about a third of the
area. I presume this is what you are talking about here.

End result though was that I have given up on DTV for the time being,
relegating it to use as a really high quality VCR?

JB

[Michael Garibaldi]

ct wrote:
> It's because the Australian networks are lazy and the Aust govt did not
> mandate all new material be produced as 16:9 (14:9 safe) as the UK did from
> middle of 1999. If that occured here, $even would have been forced by the
> govt to produce the tennis as 16:9. The UK govt even banned the sale of 4:3
> sets other than 34cm portables, meaning a large number of large 4:3
> sets/tubes on sale here are cast off's, making Australia yet again live up
> to it's usual reputation as the world's dumping ground yet again. Only the
> ABC, $even, Prime & SC-Ten are capable of active ARCing
> interstitials/commercials, with $even doing less so. Even all TVC's in the
> UK had to be 16:9 from the middle of 1999, but no, not here, can't upset the
> advertising industry out here. For freaky sake, some agencies are still
> delivering TVC's on one inch spot reels. This country has a long way to go
> for sure.
>
> ct
The stupid thing is that Ch4:3 IS the only network offering to show
different aspects for different mediums.

What it really comes down to... Is that the commercials supplied are
identified incorrectly or worse the advertising agencies demand that the
production house ARC it because they sold the idea of 16:9 to the
client. Hence 4:3 viewers get a letterbox and digital get postage stamp,
otherwise the client might complain that the didn't get what they've
been sold.

IMHO, the definition of what IS 16:9 and what IS 4:3 needs to be added
to the Digital Tx act so this kind of thing doesn't happen. The result
would produce the following:
16:9 commercial is seen as 16:9 for digital viewers and 4:3 centre cut
for analog viewers, 4:3 commercial is seen pillar boxed for digital
viewers and full screen for analog viewers.

IF THE ADVERTISING AGENCIES DON'T LIKE IT... WELL TOUGH!!! They should
learn to sell/pitch the right things to the client!

Mick

[tony_h]

JB wrote:
> I'll apologise in advance if I'm on the wrong track here...
>
> I just purchased a Vision Plus DTV card, and was feeding it to both a
> monitor and a Toshiba 4:3 rear projection TV. The display on the
> monitor was excellent, and the TV wasn't too bad either with the
> widescreen broadcasts. What had me totally bemused though, was the
> fact that any transmission of 4:3 images (be it the SBS news or
> whatever), came up with a small image. What usually filled the 4:3
> screen was now only using about a third of the area. I presume this
> is what you are talking about here.

Yep, but hopefully your set top box (oops, DTV card) has "centre cut" as an
option, and this will send the image as full screen 4:3 by removing the side
black bars (and as it is 4:3 it doesn't have to do any letterbox conversion)
so it ends up filling the screen completely. Like I said, hopefully your
STB/card has the 4:3/16:9/letterbox options as a remote button/software
toggle option, as you will be giving it a big work out with the amount of
4:3 material still being broadcast.

Regards
Tony