Announcement XMS888 firmware v1.2

[davidf]

Jok11n,

A simple request for next firmware, preference menu is not disabled when a disc is in the player.

[Robbiee]

These are the file extensions that I have located in the latest firmware...
MP3 MMP AC3 DTS DMC ABS MPA WMA ASF WMV M4V AVI DIV SMI SRT SUB TXT VBS MPV DAT VOB MPG JPG JPE WAV MPEG ESS
followed by
DIV AVI SMI SRT SUB (perhaps the associated files for subtitle support?)
I've probably missed one somewhere. (I can't see m2v, but 'robbiee' posted in another thread that it worked on the old firmware, and I don't think it was listed in the old firmware either, so maybe there is another list somewhere in the code)
Also, just because the extension is listed, doesn't mean that the codec for it is in the firmware.

Andw, m2v files play A-ok on the firmware 1.2 as well :)

[bcasteng]

Just updated to 1.2 software with no problems.

Wondering if anyone else is seeing the same problems I'm having with audio, or make suggestions.

For the moment, the player is set to mix down to LT/RT, and the LT/RT outputs are fed to a Dolby ProLogic decoder. All good so far, and the mapping has good directionality on any test disc I've tried.

* before upgrade to v1.2, a DTS 5.1 surround test track produced output mapped to the correct speakers in sequence, but the signal sounded like annoying digital crud. After upgrade, this test produces no output at all, which is either more annoying or less depending on how much you like digital noise.

* an audio track encoded as PCM 2.0 24bit/96kHz produces no audio at all (before or after upgrade).

* an AC3 5.1 track produces correct mapping to every speaker except the subwoofer (no different after upgrade to 1.2). I cannot find a setting which would affect mapping of subwoofer into LT/RT.

Has anyone else made these observations?

Apart from that, the upgrade was uneventful, and I get the impression that the player is responding better to the remote.

BTW, apart from not reproducing blacker-than-black (and few players do), the video performance of the XMS-888 is very impressive.

Thanks again to jokiin and andw for the great support work.

[jokiin]

Just updated to 1.2 software with no problems.

Wondering if anyone else is seeing the same problems I'm having with audio, or make suggestions.

For the moment, the player is set to mix down to LT/RT, and the LT/RT outputs are fed to a Dolby ProLogic decoder. All good so far, and the mapping has good directionality on any test disc I've tried.

* before upgrade to v1.2, a DTS 5.1 surround test track produced output mapped to the correct speakers in sequence, but the signal sounded like annoying digital crud. After upgrade, this test produces no output at all, which is either more annoying or less depending on how much you like digital noise.

* an audio track encoded as PCM 2.0 24bit/96kHz produces no audio at all (before or after upgrade).

* an AC3 5.1 track produces correct mapping to every speaker except the subwoofer (no different after upgrade to 1.2). I cannot find a setting which would affect mapping of subwoofer into LT/RT.

Has anyone else made these observations?

Apart from that, the upgrade was uneventful, and I get the impression that the player is responding better to the remote.

BTW, apart from not reproducing blacker-than-black (and few players do), the video performance of the XMS-888 is very impressive.

Thanks again to jokiin and andw for the great support work.

Not sure I understand your exact setup, do you have a dolby digital/dts amp or pro logic or are you using seperate amplified speakers? I just want to understand exactly how your setup is configured.

[FredW]

Not sure I understand your exact setup, do you have a dolby digital/dts amp or pro logic or are you using seperate amplified speakers? I just want to understand exactly how your setup is configured.

I have had same probs with the 24 bit pcm sound. Have since formatted a track as 24 bit packed int (type 1, 20 bit] as I notice my XMS digital surround receiver plays 20 bit pcm ( no mention of 24 bit). whether that means anything at all I don't know. Haven't been able to test yet as most of my equipment is strewn all over the living room awaiting proper setup.

[andw]

I have had same probs with the 24 bit pcm sound. Have since formatted a track as 24 bit packed int (type 1, 20 bit] as I notice my XMS digital surround receiver plays 20 bit pcm ( no mention of 24 bit). whether that means anything at all I don't know. Haven't been able to test yet as most of my equipment is strewn all over the living room awaiting proper setup.
I have tried PCM, but I don't think the 888 supports it.
Unless it 'passes it through' to your digital surround receiver....?

[jokiin]

I have tried PCM, but I don't think the 888 supports it.
Unless it 'passes it through' to your digital surround receiver....?

As far as I am aware PCM will always need to be fed to an optical or coaxial input, which is why I asked what the configuation was a few posts up, PCM is a raw data format. I'm not sure I understand how he has it setup.

[bcasteng]

Not sure I understand your exact setup, do you have a dolby digital/dts amp or pro logic or are you using seperate amplified speakers? I just want to understand exactly how your setup is configured.
I wasn't sure that the right things were happening with audio. One of my professional colleagues gave me a technical test disc that he's created and released, which includes the DTS 5.1, 2.0 96k and AC3 5.1 sequences I mentioned last post. The AC3 sequence has audio directed at each output in turn, which is a great way to test if your system is setup correctly.

My amp has Dolby Pro-Logic, but no digital, so the only input is analogue LT/RT. I normally have the XMS-888 set up to map discreet 5.1 signals to LT/RT. In this mode, if everything is working OK, then signals from Left, Centre, Right, Right-rear, Left-rear, and subwoofer on a 5.1 audio track should be encoded to Prologic equivalent by the DVD player, and then decoded again by the amp.

The XMS-888 does this impressively well, except that signal destined for subwoofer doesn't seem to be getting to the LT/RT outputs of the DVD player at all.

I did some further testing using the AC3 test track, and confirmed the following behaviours based on settings in the speaker setup page. For consistency, "audio" means signal off the disc, and "output" means output to the amp on the back of the XMS-888:

Downmix Stereo:

left and left rear audio appear at left output (ML), right and right rear audio appear at right output (MR), centre audio appears at ML and MR. Subwoofer is discarded and does not appear at any output.
nothing appears at discrete outputs
This mode reproduces a surround track acceptably where the user's system only has two speakers.
Downmix LT/RT:

left audio appears at ML, right audio appears at MR, centre audio appears at both ML and MR (and is decoded by prologic as centre), rear left and rear right appear out of phase at ML and MR (and are correctly decoded by prologic as rear). Subwoofer audio is discarded and does not appear at any output.
Except for losing the subwoofer, this mode works well for Dolby Prologic amps.
Downmix off, and other outputs set on:

left audio appears at left output (ML), right audio appears at right output (MR). Rear, centre and subwoofer tracks are discarded.
full discrete mapping to the other outputs: left audio goes to FL output, right audio to FR output, left rear to SL output, right rear to SR output, centre to CE output and subwoofer appears at SW output.
Test tone on (can only be selected when Downmix is off):

White noise output from ML and FL when screen says "Left"
White noise output from MR and FR when screen says "Right"
Short burst output from CE (only) when screen says "Center"
Short burst output from SR (only) when screen says "Right Sur."
No output from SL ever
No output from SW ever
DTS 5.1: nothing ever.
2.0 PCM 96k: nothing ever


Conclusion: They have some work to do. The test tone is not useful in current form, and there should be mapping of SW tracks to ML/MR in both of the mixdown modes. I don't know if DTS or 96k are supported (but it would be useful... maybe to play SACDs?).

It would be useful to know if this is just my unit, or if anyone else can confirm the behaviour.... and if so, I would like to add some requests to the fix list:
* correct SW mapping
* correct test tone operation
* SACD playback
* confirmation of DTS support

[FredW]

As far as I am aware PCM will always need to be fed to an optical or coaxial input, which is why I asked what the configuation was a few posts up, PCM is a raw data format. I'm not sure I understand how he has it setup.

Finally setup my digital surround receiver using both coax and optic. Tried playing both 24 and 20 bit 96k pcm and got nothing.

After reading bcasteng's comprehensive report I'm inclined to agree with ANdW, don't think the xms888 lives up to its claims in this area viz.supporting 24 bit pcm at this stage.

[jokiin]

Finally setup my digital surround receiver using both coax and optic. Tried playing both 24 and 20 bit 96k pcm and got nothing.

After reading bcasteng's comprehensive report I'm inclined to agree with ANdW, don't think the xms888 lives up to its claims in this area viz.supporting 24 bit pcm at this stage.

Did you change your setup in the menu, you won't get any output unless you do, does your amp support 96k also?

[bcasteng]

Did you change your setup in the menu, you won't get any output unless you do, does your amp support 96k also?
Assuming it's capable of playing it at all, is there any reason why the XMS-888 shouldn't replay 24bit/96k audio through the analogue outputs?

Maybe it doesn't have D/A capability at high bitrate, but that doesn't sound very sensible... a bit like the DTS thing; I figure that if the device can play it at all then the output should appear in analogue land as well as digital.

Anyway, it looks like it ought to be playing. Page 14 of the user manual says "Set the Audio Output to DIGITAL OUTPUT OFF from the SETUP MENU display if you don't have the necessary equipment to enjoy Dolby Digital or DTS surround sound".

Can someone help me here... I can't find a DIGITAL OUTPUT OFF, but maybe they mean SPDIF OUTPUT (which is set off on my player).

BTW, don't forget the comment that DTS was decoding to analogue outputs, but uselessly, prior to upgrade to new firmware.

[andw]

Can someone help me here... I can't find a DIGITAL OUTPUT OFF, but maybe they mean SPDIF OUTPUT (which is set off on my player).
I agree, I think the manual has the wrong wording.
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~wweb/xms888/16spdifoutput.JPG (screenshot)

[andw]

Well, I just sent a very long message to ESS directly, via their feedback section for technical support on their website, detailing the problems that we, and other users of players with their chip in are experiencing (different players world wide).
Don't know how well it will be recieved / whether they will get it and bother reading it, but as a lot of the issues we have had, are the same as other players using the same / similar chip, I thought it was time to go direct to the source of what would appear to be a 'base' firmware that they send out, that the manufacturers 'tweak' for their particular players.

[jokiin]

Well, I just sent a very long message to ESS directly, via their feedback section for technical support on their website, detailing the problems that we, and other users of players with their chip in are experiencing (different players world wide).
Don't know how well it will be recieved / whether they will get it and bother reading it, but as a lot of the issues we have had, are the same as other players using the same / similar chip, I thought it was time to go direct to the source of what would appear to be a 'base' firmware that they send out, that the manufacturers 'tweak' for their particular players.

Nothing wrong with doing that, I think that sometimes some things get very lost in the translation and it doesn't hurt to hear it from another source.

[FredW]

Did you change your setup in the menu, you won't get any output unless you do, does your amp support 96k also?

Yes the surround receiver supports 96 k 20 bit but no mention of 24 bit hence tried playing both 20 and 24 bit. Have tried digital/raw and digital/pcm and experimented with numerous other settings until I get giddy and still can't get it right. However, will give it another go on weekend when I have more time there may be a few more buttons or menus I haven't found yet.

[andw]

Well, I just sent a very long message to ESS directly, via their feedback section for technical support on their website, detailing the problems that we, and other users of players with their chip in are experiencing (different players world wide).
Don't know how well it will be recieved / whether they will get it and bother reading it, but as a lot of the issues we have had, are the same as other players using the same / similar chip, I thought it was time to go direct to the source of what would appear to be a 'base' firmware that they send out, that the manufacturers 'tweak' for their particular players.
Well, had a reply today, not much of a reply, but a reply all the same...
Thanks a lot for your input!
Have passed your email to our marketing/engineering.
Please keep working with your proper supporting channel for all open
issues. Thanks!

Best regards,

[bcasteng]

Well, had a reply today, not much of a reply, but a reply all the same...
Thanks a lot for your input!
Have passed your email to our marketing/engineering.
Please keep working with your proper supporting channel for all open
issues. Thanks!

Best regards,
Strange reply, huh? Doesn't sound like they want to get directly involved.

I did a quick check with a Dolby Bitstream Analyzer tonight and discovered that the Optical output is only enabled when SPDIF is set to SPDIF/RAW. Also reconfirming that the LT/RT outputs go dead unless SPDIF is off. Bummer. My experience is that's more likely to be a licencing issue than anything technical, but it's still a pain.

Anyway, I can at least confirm that my test disc is putting out the correct AC3 signals, because everything was in the right place and the Subwoofer track showed up as track 6 on the analyzer (identified as LFE in the metadata).

I'll try the coaxial output tomorrow while I have the chance.

[bcasteng]

I'll try the coaxial output tomorrow while I have the chance.
And here are the results (XMS-888 menu settings are coloured navy):

1. AC3 test track, 888 set SPDIF=RAW. Coaxial and optical spigots (simultaneously) output a very good Dolby Digital stream. In the case of the test disc, that's 640kbps (and also confirmed on a release disc, which output at 448kbps). Channels on the disc are mapped correctly one-for-one to all speakers including subwoofer. No output from analogue RCAs.

2. AC3 test track, 888 set SPDIF=PCM. Mixdown= LT/RT. Coaxial and optical spigots output a 48k PCM stream. Left audio mapped to left output, right audio mapped to right output, centre mapped to L+R, and the other three outputs are discarded (Ls, Rs, and SW).

3. AC3 test track, 888 set SPDIF=PCM. Mixdown= OFF. L and Ls mapped to Left output, R and Rs mapped to Right output, Centre mapped to L+R. Subwoofer is discarded. No output from analogue RCAs.

4. 2.0 24bit/96k test track.
a. LPCM=96k: Optical output: audio stream output at 96k. Coax output mute. Analogue outputs mute.
b. LPCM=48k: Optical output: audio stream output at 48k. Coax output: audio stream at 48k. Analogue outputs mute.

5. DTS test track: Independent of SPDIF setting, analyzer shows "Data type 11" while a DTS audio track is playing. My guess is that the analyzer is framing up but might not be able to decode DTS (even though it says that Copyright=YES! on a DTS stream). Same behaviour happens on a release DTS encoded disc.

Can someone with a DTS amp/decoder confirm that the XMS-888 outputs DTS audio?

BTW, I confirmed that the Lucasfilm THX audio setup test tracks (eg: on Monsters Inc) behave the same as the AC3 tracks on my test disc.

Conclusions:

the XMS is capable of decoding material that is not presented to the analogue outputs
the XMS SETUP parameters are can interact in ways that aren't obvious
DTS processing has changed since firmware 1.1. DTS is never translated into analogue outputs.
If you have analogue outputs, forget about subwoofer, even though there is a socket on the back
even with SPDIF set on, it's really easy to get the wrong audio from your amp or decoder.
Jok11n: do these observations tally with the way you expect the box to work, and what is the chance of escalating the issues (and getting fixes) from the manufacturer?

My wish list is pretty simple:

the 6 analogue RCA connectors should be able to deliver the six tracks in a 5.1 encoded disc.
audio should always be present at the left and right analogue outputs

[jokiin]

Conclusions:

the XMS is capable of decoding material that is not presented to the analogue outputs
the XMS SETUP parameters are can interact in ways that aren't obvious
DTS processing has changed since firmware 1.1. DTS is never translated into analogue outputs.
If you have analogue outputs, forget about subwoofer, even though there is a socket on the back
even with SPDIF set on, it's really easy to get the wrong audio from your amp or decoder.
Jok11n: do these observations tally with the way you expect the box to work, and what is the chance of escalating the issues (and getting fixes) from the manufacturer?

My wish list is pretty simple:

the 6 analogue RCA connectors should be able to deliver the six tracks in a 5.1 encoded disc.
audio should always be present at the left and right analogue outputs


What do you mean that the 6 rca's deliver the six tracks? You need to set the player to 6 channel analouge for those outputs to work, this is for use with amplified speakers or amps with 6 channel input. It's fairly common for players to not output a signal at the two channel audio, depending on how the outputs are configured for digital or 6 channel analouge output, I agree there are circumstances when it would be useful, most players that I have seen that do have a constant two channel output regardless of how the system is configured have also got a second composite video output. I think the idea here is that you can have the player hooked to your home theatre setup and still have the two channel setup hooked to the tv (or VCR more likely as most players I have seen with this were also macrovision free)

Also I'm not sure that DTS was able to be processed via the analouge outputs
as I had heard issues with something similar to pink noise (which is likely to be raw data by the sounds of it) being output from the analouge outputs, I would have to check this though, I'm only going on the reports of others.

[bcasteng]

What do you mean that the 6 rca's deliver the six tracks? You need to set the player to 6 channel analouge for those outputs to work, this is for use with amplified speakers or amps with 6 channel input. It's fairly common for players to not output a signal at the two channel audio, depending on how the outputs are configured for digital or 6 channel analouge output.
Discrete mapping to the 6 RCAs works, but that's the only analogue mode which works. Right now (Firmware 1.2) there is no mode that I can find in which all the encoded tracks of a 5.1 DVD are reproduced on the left and right analogue outputs. I can't think of a particularly valid reason to throw away subwoofer, and the analogue test tones are unreasonably broken.

Also I'm not sure that DTS was able to be processed via the analouge outputs
as I had heard issues with something similar to pink noise (which is likely to be raw data by the sounds of it) being output from the analouge outputs.Based on what I heard before the 1.2 upgrade, it sounded like badly decoded audio, not raw digital stream. But it was fleeting. I'd be interested to retest... is there any practical reason which would make it a bad thing to downlevel the box to 1.1, test, and then uplevel it again?

BTW, I'm working on a product which has analogue and digital audio outputs, and the mantra has been absolutely that both must be active. They won't be the same - the digital will be 5.1 discrete, and the analogue will be coded LT/RT derived from the AC3, but the fact is that both have to be active.... which is the only sensible mode for a consumer device.

Nobody should have to stuff around with a "SPDIF" setting in order to turn analogue audio on and off!! :-)