NTSC / region 1 problems? Jerkiness....

[StonedEwok]

hello all,

I have no idea about technical details regarding DVDs,etc so I was wondering if anyone could help me out with this problem...

when i watch an NTSC DVD the picture motion is really jerky!!!

at first i thought it was the drugs (LOL), but it happened throughout the whole movie. (Goonies Region 4)

so i popped in another movie in my collection, Terminator 2 Ultimate Edition (region 1), and there was the same problem...the extra features like the "making ofs" and the docos were especially bad.

Sometimes its fine to watch but most of the time, like when the camera is panning (or just moving at any pace) the picture stutters and its really annoying to watch!

I'm thinking of buying the R1 LOTR collectors set, but if the same problem happens I'm not even going to bother!

Does anyone know what the problem is? is it my dvd player (XMS-750) or my TV?

HELP MEEEEE!!! (please)

[MrMacabre]

Hey dude,

I've noticed that a lot of the cheaper players can't handle a smooth pan when playing R1's.

Some things to try:

Go into setup; if the NTSC picture is being converted to PAL60/50 (whatever), change it to play 'as' NTSC, then give it a try. (I just hope your TV is NTSC compatible).

If that don't work, may I suggest buy another player? ;)
I read that it seems to be a RAM issue with cheaper / rebadged 'no name' brands.

[craptest]

NTSC's 3:2 Pulldown

"Movies on NTSC DVDs play back at the correct speed, but they achieve this by utilizing a process called "3:2 pull-down".

A detailed discussion of this process is beyond the scope of this article, but the net effect of this is that any image pan is not smooth, but takes place in a series of uneven steps, an artefact known as judder. As with PAL's 4% speed-up, the great majority of people will never notice this artefact, but for a small minority, this is intolerable. Personally, I find this artefact all but intolerable and find it very hard to watch a movie on an NTSC DVD because of it.

taken from: http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/PALvsNTSC/PALvsNTSC.asp

[Tsargrad]

My TV has a horrible flicker in top right with NTSC films. I found someone who had the same TV and they have stated the same problem. Panasonic 68cm non flat or w/s..

[mysteriousjimmy]

If I found NTSC's 3:2 Pulldown affect a problem I wouldn't have so many R1 DVD's in my collection :)

[craptest]

)
I'll be honest. I've never noticed the effects of 3:2 Pulldown. Having said that, now I'm gunna end up looking for it and it'll haunt me forever... DAMN YOU KNOWLEDGE!!

Don't notice PAL speed up either (or the sound glitches in LOTR Ext Edit R4:D )

HOWEVER

NTSC's oversaturated and bleeding colours are thing I always notice**.

Thus, given the choice and all things being equal (extras, availability, 16:9 enhanced etc) I'll choose the PAL disc over its american counterpart.

(**Sure not all R1 discs have oversaturated bleeding colours -but a good number do).

[StonedEwok]

ok,
i read that whole article about PAL vs NTSC (thanks craptest)

but i'm stumped...becoz

a) i've NEVER noticed or even heard of the 4% speed up until now.

b) i'm definitely not a technical movie/music buff, but the jerkiness/stuttering (ie. 3:2 pulldown), especially when there's a pan, is REALLY bad and definitely noticible when i'm watching an NTSC movie on my dvd player & tv...
maybe this "artefact" combined with my cheap-ass dvd player is making the problem worse?

anyhooz, thanks for the input...

still in limbo about the R1 LOTR 5 disc set (its so much cheaper than the R4 set, even with shipping!)...

[Scott.H.]

i have a cheap arse xms and never had a problem with it in this regard and ive played a heap of ntsc dvds.
but i do have my tv set to play ntsc.What sort of tv you got as some older tvs cant cope as well with the ntsc signal if they were pal originally,My mates old tv comes to mind when we tried some movies even with the dvd player converting the signal.

[ron mcfarlane]

This has been an interesting and informative thread - many thanks to those who've contributed.

I have two Conia DVD players, and both my TVs automatically display either PAL or NTSC (whatever is fed to them). I had never noticed any judder at all when watching NTSC DVDs until I forced the player to output NTSC in PAL format.

IMHO, if you want to watch NTSC DVDs then you should use a TV that displays NTSC. Forcing a player to output an NTSC DVD signal in PAL seems to be a recipe for judder.

Does that seem right?

[MrMacabre]

Originally posted by ron mcfarlane
Does that seem right?

Yep, from my experiences anyway :)

[braddo]

Yep, exactly right.

Stoned Ewok - on the XMS-750 press set-up and then
make sure "TV SYS" is set to Auto.

You will soon see whether your TV set will
play NTSC OK or not.

When I had an old PAL only TV, NTSC pulled down
to PAL looked shocking through my XMS-750.

Looks like a TV upgrade or just buy PAL disks.

[braddo]

Originally posted by craptest
I'll be honest. I've never noticed the effects of 3:2 Pulldown

NTSC's oversaturated and bleeding colours are thing I always notice**.

Thus, given the choice and all things being equal (extras, availability, 16:9 enhanced etc) I'll choose the PAL disc over its american counterpart.

(**Sure not all R1 discs have oversaturated bleeding colours -but a good number do). [/B]

If your TV is NTSC compatible it will have some way of
changing TINT. PAL does not have this option, it is an
NTSC only "feature".
This (along with brightness/contrast) may sort out
your supersaturation problems.

If you are watching a NTSC DVD through a NTSC TV
you will not have pulldown problems. It's converting
it that has the problem.
I don't know whether high end players have this problem
but my cheapo XMS does.

[King Eric]

Hey stonedewok dont even think about not getting LOTR extended r1(you will kick your own ass till your nose bleeds later on if you dont hehe)cause it looks just fine on a decent setup and the audio is to die for.You will probably have to think about upgrading your dvd and telly at some stage to get a better picture but once the dvd bug bites you will want to invest in the best that you can afford and the r1 LOTR is easy the best dvd on the face of the earth.
I to noticed the jerkiness with my old philips widescreen(the first ever released in oz)and i also got annoying flicker at the edge of the picture.I have since invested in an lg widescreen and it does a superb job with ntsc stuff,to be honest it looks better than pal because although pal is slightly sharper you always seem to get more jaggies and artifacts in pal.Loss of a little bit of resolution is more than made up for by having the movie with the correct soundtrack and the sheer choice of brilliant special eddition dvd's that may never be released here or if your lucky with a crap pan and scan transfer.Well i'm off to watch a dario argento tripple feature in glorius DTS sound happy dvding all;)

[scorezero]

[NTSC's oversaturated and bleeding colours are thing I always notice**.


Doesn't NTSC stand for "Never Twice The same Colour?":p

[King Eric]

Both the pal and ntsc systems are flawed in diffrent ways but they are both better than not having the movie at all.For true movie lovers you have no choice but to get yourself a display system that handles ntsc ok because the region 1 library is so far ahead of the region 4 and always will be.Do you realy want to wait for some of the great special edditon dvd's like pulp fiction and true romance to be released in r4?How long before we see a widescreen life of brian in region 4?Face it guys ntsc is the best option we have for now,the only way to achieve true movie purity is to get a display device that automaticaly ajusts to the original frame rate and not just convert it up or down.

[MrMacabre]

Originally posted by eric b
Well i'm off to watch a dario argento tripple feature in glorius DTS sound happy dvding all;)

What were they? ;)

Suspiria and Opera? What else? :p

*am trying to think of all the Argento DVDs that have DTS...

[King Eric]

LOL ok ok there the only two,phenomena only has crappy old dolby digital:eek:

[zetmoon]

Originally posted by eric b
Face it guys ntsc is the best option we have for now,the only way to achieve true movie purity is to get a display device that automaticaly ajusts to the original frame rate and not just convert it up or down.

What do you mean with the last remark?

NTSC DVD's play a movie at the correct speed
but because of the 3:2 pulldown horizontal
pannings judder.

PAL DVD's play the movie 1 frame per second too fast (4%) but are always smooth.
And the almost 100 scanlines more really make a difference!

No one ever notices that the pitch of the music is a bit higher on PAL.
Since it's been like that on TV as well for the past 50 years!

PAL speed-up is not exclusive to DVD,
but also VHS and TV.

[dvd_beetle]

In movies there are 24frames per second. PAL is 25fps and NTSC is 29.98fps. Both signals ARE flawed since NTSC has no choice but to dither 24 frames into 29.98 which produces the awful jerkiness which is in my opinion far more noticeable then PAL's 4% speed-up. Try watching the credits on an NTSC disc and you'll notice it straight away.

PAL is a better signal then NTSC because: 1. There is no dithering, 2. it has 96 more lines of resolution. The only real disadvantage to PAL is that when played back in a DVD player on a TV it plays it at 25fps rather then 24. On a computer you can watch a PAL DVD at 24fps eliminating the problem of the 4% speedup.

I expect sometime soon in the future TVs and DVD players (and VCRs) too will have the ability to play 24fps PAL. PAL has both a higher resolution and no frame dithering making it a clear winner in terms or quality. Non-anamorphic PAL has an near equal resolution to anamorphic NTSC, but again has the added advantage that it has no dithering.

I do find watching NTSC troubling sometimes, as the jerkiness is there and it won't go away. It's not too bothering especially in fast moving action films, or in say Saving Private Ryan which is deliberately stilted, but for most movies I do find it a bit annoying.

[Tsargrad]

hey dvd beetle.

you seem to be the guy with the knowledge..

what does anamorphic do besides stretching the picture?