Receiver and Sub Configuration

[dukie]

My question is on what is "normal" when receivers and subs are configured to
work together.

I've recently got myself a sub (Velodyne VX10 - cheap but good - got the
recommendation out of "What HiFi" mag) and I've added it to my set-up, which
is based on a Yamaha RX-V440 receiver. I spent most of a day trying to get
anything to come out of the sub using a 5.1 video and stereo CDs.

My receiver has 3 settings for subs (1) "None" - meaning you haven't got a
sub (2) "Both" - meaning you want the bass to come from your main (left and
right) speakers AND from your sub or (3) "Sub" - meaning you want the low
frequencies to come from your sub only.

In desparation I turned to the "troubleshooting" section of the receiver
manual. In the "no sound from sub woofer" section it said something like "if
you get no sound from the sub using 2 channel sources then you must use the
"Both" setting". I changed the setting from "Sub" to "Both", and out come
the bass from CDs and, to my surprise, from the 5.1 video as well. I
subsequently discovered, using other 5.1 videos that when set to "Sub" there
is only a small amount of bass delivered compared to what is delivered when
set to "Both".

So now it works OK but I find this surprising, but also slightly
inconvenient because I wanted to be able to set it to "Sub" and set the
cross-over frequency cut off to high then let the amp work out what it sends
to the sub. Instead I am now playing with cross over frequency cut off and
volume controls to try to find the sweet settings.

My questions are:
Is this a normal with receivers and why on earth would you build a receiver
to work that way?
Do others have similar experiences?

[ritesh]

OK, firstly Sub shouldn't be used for MUSIC, it should only be used for MOVIES !

Now, let's look at the configuration:
- Large Speakers + Sub
Nothing from Sub during Music, and special effects from the Sub depending on the movies

- Bookshelf Speakers + Sub
Again, probably, nothing from the Sub for Music; and mostly special effects from the Sub depending on the Movies

- Satellite Speakers + Sub
This is like a Bose setup; where the speakers can't even handle basic freq. and thus for both Music and Movies a LOT of stuff will come out of the Sub and will sound very terrible.

Most of the Amps have 3 settings similar to yours. Thus as you can guess, for your setting, "None" would correspond to the first configuration above; where your speakers can go quite low and there is little need for the Sub AND you don't care about the special effect stuff. Your second setting would be like the second configuration above; whilst when you are selecting the third setting, i.e., "both", you are probably sending out a lot more bass from the Sub than is necessary.

Sub plays no role in Music, and a subtle role in in Movies; and thus it is not surprising that when you selected the correct setting, you only felt the Sub a little bit and in some scenes. This is what the role of the Sub is and should be.

Hope this helps,

regards,


Ritesh

[Mick]

I dont agree with your first comment. The level of the sub should not
be the same for movies and music. Music is lower.

One company made a sub with a video input. This was used to detect what
type of material was being played and it changed to the movie preset
when a movie was played and changed to a music preset when the video
signal was not present.

Subs are playing a big role in movies. They tend to be used in the high
action scenes. While I think a tactile transducer would be better, the
sub will shake the couch and I think they [production labs etc.] are
turning the levels up to creat this effect

Mick

ritesh wrote:
> OK, firstly Sub shouldn't be used for MUSIC, it should only be used for
> MOVIES !
>
> Now, let's look at the configuration:
> - Large Speakers + Sub
> Nothing from Sub during Music, and special effects from the Sub
> depending on the movies
>
> - Bookshelf Speakers + Sub
> Again, probably, nothing from the Sub for Music; and mostly special
> effects from the Sub depending on the Movies
>
> - Satellite Speakers + Sub
> This is like a Bose setup; where the speakers can't even handle basic
> freq. and thus for both Music and Movies a LOT of stuff will come out
> of the Sub and will sound very terrible.
>
> Most of the Amps have 3 settings similar to yours. Thus as you can
> guess, for your setting, "None" would correspond to the first
> configuration above; where your speakers can go quite low and there is
> little need for the Sub AND you don't care about the special effect
> stuff. Your second setting would be like the second configuration
> above; whilst when you are selecting the third setting, i.e., "both",
> you are probably sending out a lot more bass from the Sub than is
> necessary.
>
> Sub plays no role in Music, and a subtle role in in Movies; and thus it
> is not surprising that when you selected the correct setting, you only
> felt the Sub a little bit and in some scenes. This is what the role of
> the Sub is and should be.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> regards,
>
>
> Ritesh
>
>

[ritesh]

>> OK, firstly Sub shouldn't be used for MUSIC,
>> it should only be used for MOVIES !

> I dont agree with your first comment.
> The level of the sub should not be the same for
> movies and music. Music is lower.

That's what I meant, with decent speakers, for Music
there should be NO need for a Sub; not just a lower
level but nothing !

> Subs are playing a big role in movies. They tend
> to be used in the high action scenes. While I
> think a tactile transducer would be better, the
> sub will shake the couch and I think they
> [production labs etc.] are turning the levels
> up to create this effect

That's exactly what I was saying, Subs are used for
special effect; these are very very low freq. and thus
require a sub-woofer; for everything else the main
speakers should be able to do the job.

However, IF the main speakers are NOT good
(i.e. satellite); then there is a NEED for a Sub, and
then your comment about different levels for Music
and Movies are valid.

However for a decent setup and decent pair of speakers
(even decent Bookshelf); there is NO need for Sub in
Music.

cheers,

Ritesh

[Chris Denyer]

ritesh <ritesh.14s5t0@no-mx.forums.eyo.com.au> wrote in message news:<ritesh.14s5t0@no-mx.forums.eyo.com.au>...
> >> OK, firstly Sub shouldn't be used for MUSIC,
> >> it should only be used for MOVIES !
>

>
> That's what I meant, with decent speakers, for Music
> there should be NO need for a Sub; not just a lower
> level but nothing !
> That's exactly what I was saying, Subs are used for
> special effect; these are very very low freq. and thus
> require a sub-woofer; for everything else the main
> speakers should be able to do the job.
>
> However for a decent setup and decent pair of speakers
> (even decent Bookshelf); there is NO need for Sub in
> Music.
>
> cheers,
>
> Ritesh


I disagree with some of your comments.

Subs are not used for special effects- Subs are simply used to
reproduce lower bass.Granted-most lower bass in films involve action
scenes,but not always.

And even speakers that cost thousands of dollars and do register lower
freq bass,will certainly benefit from a Sub that can reach down to
15-20Hz.
Not a great deal of music contains bass that will go this low,but try
listen to some CD's (especially Classical with Organs involved) and
hear how a good sub deals with this.

And I am yet to hear a Bookshelf speaker that accurately plays
Bass.You dont'know what your missing until hooking up a decent sub.

my 2 cents

Chris

[nobby]

Firstly to the question: I have a yamaha RXV-630 and it does the same thing. There is something wrong with the 'sub' setting - none is none, both is both, but the third setting of 'sub' is definitely not passing any low level frequencies to the sub. I just leave mine on the 'both' setting and it annoys me too!

Nextly to the other opinions:

It doesn't matter if you have movies or music. If a sound on your source is telling your system to produce a sound at low frequencies your system should reproduce what the source is telling it (if it can). This goes for music as well. Why are you saying that you don't need to hear/feel the rumble of a drum or horn or bass guitar? Why would you deny your systems ability to play what is on the source material by turning your sub off?

This is not to say that it shouldn't be setup correctly, you should not have boom city in your listening room. You can do this by ear or by buying yourself a cheap SPL meter from tandy and run the test tones from to ensure your sub level is adjusted to in room response properly.