Crash investigation results and that 30 car pile-up in NSW

[Jacko]

"BenOne©" <nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote in message
news:417C2BF0.7050603@m.thanks.mate...
> After seeing the big 30 car smash in NSW on the news I was wondering how I
could
> find out more about the results of the investigation that will no doubt be
> undertaken.
>
> The road looked like a freeway, so I suspect it had a speed limit of 80 or
more.
> I don't know what caused the crash - there was some mention of a
semi-trailer -
> but I can't see how anything but tailgating is to blame. If that's the
case,
> then it's more proof that the government is really fucking up road safety
by
> focusing solely on speeding in their road safety campaigns. The endless
loss of
> life single minded government policy that isn't achieving anything
positive
> almost brings me to tears!

Ben

The road in question was the F3 Freeway specifically, the Mooney Mooney
Bridge which is a very high bridge between two mountains (for lack of a
better explanation). It normally has a posted limit of 110km/h. The
Sun-Herald reported that there was an accident southbound on the right hand
lane. Part of the northbound lanes were closed as a result. Apparently
there was a subsequent accident before a truck coming down the long downhill
section on the northbound lane reportedly lost its brakes. It clung to the
left shoulder but evidently collected multiple vehicles. I am not sure if
there were any other incidents that formed part of the "Pile-up".

I had the misfortune of travelling from NW NSW to Sydney on Friday night and
by the time we got to Mooney Mooney (about 9.00pm) the area was lit up with
big flood lights and there were literally flashing lights everywhere. The
RTA/police crews do a good job of managing the traffic around the accident
considering what they were up against.

Jacko

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"Jacko" <
> The road in question was the F3 Freeway specifically, the Mooney Mooney
> Bridge which is a very high bridge between two mountains (for lack of a
> better explanation). It normally has a posted limit of 110km/h.


Ben, I cannot see your original post, but did recieve you email CC. (What
is a workable return address?)

Investigations continue - truck 'might' have had brake failure of sorts.
Few drivers had activated hazard warning lights to warn approaching vehicles
I suspect, let alone triangle and CB's to alert approaching Rigs. More
later.


This is what Scott Hillard posted on another forum:

Looks like 35 cars now, I crossed the bridge 10-15 minutes before the
collision, and it's easy to see how it happened.

A 4WD had managed to mount the Jersey barrier in the middle of the bridge,
blocking 2 Southbound lanes. Northbound peak traffic had slowed to
rubber-neck, causing near gridlock with 3 lanes of traffic moving at
40-50km/h in a 110km/h zone.

Madness.

Throw in the usual tailgating and appalling lane discipline you find on the
F3, and it was bound to happen. Only surprise was that more people weren't
killed.

[BenOne©]

Mot Adv-NSW wrote:

> "Jacko" <
>
>>The road in question was the F3 Freeway specifically, the Mooney Mooney
>>Bridge which is a very high bridge between two mountains (for lack of a
>>better explanation). It normally has a posted limit of 110km/h.
>
>
>
> Ben, I cannot see your original post, but did recieve you email CC. (What
> is a workable return address?)

Sorry about that. I forgot to include a real address. username is ben. company
is unico. it's an australian company. So it's like somebloke@mycompanyname.com.au.

> Investigations continue - truck 'might' have had brake failure of sorts.
> Few drivers had activated hazard warning lights to warn approaching vehicles
> I suspect, let alone triangle and CB's to alert approaching Rigs. More
> later.

Are you suggesting that the approaching rigs don't leave enough room to stop
should the traffic suddenly slow, and that they need members of the public to
place warning triangles on the road to alert them?

So is the info publicly available? Will it be broadcast on the news? Or are news
services only interested in the initial gore?

> This is what Scott Hillard posted on another forum:
>
> Looks like 35 cars now, I crossed the bridge 10-15 minutes before the
> collision, and it's easy to see how it happened.
>
> A 4WD had managed to mount the Jersey barrier in the middle of the bridge,
> blocking 2 Southbound lanes. Northbound peak traffic had slowed to
> rubber-neck, causing near gridlock with 3 lanes of traffic moving at
> 40-50km/h in a 110km/h zone.
>
> Madness.
>
> Throw in the usual tailgating and appalling lane discipline you find on the
> F3, and it was bound to happen. Only surprise was that more people weren't
> killed.

Thanks for forwarding it.


--
Ben Thomas
Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither
given nor endorsed by it.

[BenOne©]

Shane wrote:

> "BenOne©" <nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote in message
> news:417C2BF0.7050603@m.thanks.mate...
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>After seeing the big 30 car smash in NSW on the news I was wondering how I
>>could find out more about the results of the investigation that will no
>>doubt be undertaken.
>>
>>The road looked like a freeway, so I suspect it had a speed limit of 80 or
>>more. I don't know what caused the crash - there was some mention of a
>>semi-trailer - but I can't see how anything but tailgating is to blame. If
>>that's the case, then it's more proof that the government is really
>>fucking up road safety by focusing solely on speeding in their road safety
>>campaigns. The endless loss of life single minded government policy that
>>isn't achieving anything positive almost brings me to tears!
>
>
>
>
> Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz
>
>
>
>>--
>>Ben Thomas
>>Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
>>relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither
>>given nor endorsed by it.
>>
>
>
>

Why do you bother?

--
Ben Thomas
Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither
given nor endorsed by it.

[Dale Jones]

"Mot Adv-NSW" <mot.adv@gotalk.net.au> wrote in message news:<2u30cjF24ula3U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> "Jacko" <
<snip>
>
>
> This is what Scott Hillard posted on another forum:
>
> Looks like 35 cars now, I crossed the bridge 10-15 minutes before the
> collision, and it's easy to see how it happened.
>
> A 4WD had managed to mount the Jersey barrier in the middle of the bridge,
> blocking 2 Southbound lanes. Northbound peak traffic had slowed to
> rubber-neck, causing near gridlock with 3 lanes of traffic moving at
> 40-50km/h in a 110km/h zone.
>
> Madness.
>
> Throw in the usual tailgating and appalling lane discipline you find on the
> F3, and it was bound to happen. Only surprise was that more people weren't
> killed.

This has probably been done to death in the papers by now, but if you
haven't read them:

I can confirm from a friend who was very close to the front of the
accident that it was from people rubber-necking the accident on the
other side that slowed the traffic down to this speed. It didn't cause
the pile-up directly but it probably could have been minimised or
avoided if the traffic was moving at the same speed or close to the
same speed as the truck.

I was lucky that I missed the accident, but I couldn't believe how
much a pain in the arse the F3 is. I am one of these people that like
to keep left when not overtaking. I found that doing this meant that
you could not get back into the right hand lane when trying to get
past a car doing 100km/h because all the people in the right hand lane
were 2 car lengths apart, and never changing lanes themselves.

My solution, slow down to 100km/h and sit in the left hand lane until
after the Gosford exit, and resume speed back to 110+ km/h. Much more
sane, except for the groups of people that bunch up with the same
behavior.

Is there any solution to this? Why are people on the F3 so 'manic'? It
really feels like a race. I've been to Gosford, I don't think its
'that nice'. Why hurry?

Dale.

[feral]

Dale Jones wrote:

> My solution, slow down to 100km/h and sit in the left hand lane until
> after the Gosford exit, and resume speed back to 110+ km/h. Much more
> sane, except for the groups of people that bunch up with the same
> behavior.
>
> Is there any solution to this?

Yes.
You see, the drivers in the RH lane are really doing
about 125k. So, if you're in the left lane doing 110k
(?), when you see you are coming up behind a slow car,
you accelerate to 125k to slip in between two doing this
speed. Then you slip back into the left lane and slow to
110k again.

You know what, I don't really believe your scenario, or,
don't you know about NSW "tolerences".

Why are people on the F3 so 'manic'?

*Only* the F3. :-)
> It really feels like a race.

It is.

I've been to Gosford, I don't think its
> 'that nice'. Why hurry?
>
Escaping Sydney? :-)

T.C. Feral

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"Dale Jones" <d

> I was lucky that I missed the accident, but I couldn't believe how
> much a pain in the arse the F3 is. I am one of these people that like
> to keep left when not overtaking.

Keep left or middle??


I found that doing this meant that
> you could not get back into the right hand lane when trying to get
> past a car doing 100km/h because all the people in the right hand lane
> were 2 car lengths apart, and never changing lanes themselves.

Symptomatic of a too low speed limit - I propose divorcing it, marriage in
traffic is deadly. We could raise the fine and points for not keeping
adequate distance, but this will encourage drivers to drive slower which
will add to frustration and outbreaks of greeat joy.


> Is there any solution to this? Why are people on the F3 so 'manic'? It
> really feels like a race. I've been to Gosford, I don't think its
> 'that nice'. Why hurry?

Many factors, 'late comers and residents', the earlier localised drivers
were generally faster on this road and more experienced with it, as it
developed over the years and you could appreciate how locals drove, with
increased residential movement from Sydney to the housing estates, primarily
from Sydneys west, we've had M4 type behaviour and 'big city' attitude
driving that goes with that. I raised this annoyance back in 1989. It has,
predictably, gotten worse, the behaviour. The F3 is now part of the Sydney
Road Network.

Recall, it was 110km/h all the way through, so with the 90km/h imposition
following an unusually wet Saturday, behaviour has worsened, people feel
'put upon' and we've had a tough time explaining 'why' the limit was imposed
as championed by Gosford Police (RTA senior local staff do not go along with
it).

The other issue is 110km/h is simply too slow a speed limit for many a
greater part. I'd raise it to 130km/h or even derestrict the road AFTER the
median barrier in installed at the full length, the driver must therefore be
given greater responsibility, rather than hiding their selfish actions
behind numerical speed limits.

Until this is addressed, I promise you more of the same as the pressure
cooker increases.

JP.





> Dale.

[Toby Ponsenby]

<| Dale Jones |> did write on 25Oct2004 at 5:05:16 PM
> Is there any solution to this? Why are people on the F3 so 'manic'? It
> really feels like a race. I've been to Gosford, I don't think its
> 'that nice'. Why hurry?

Been wondering about that for many years.
IMHO, the F3 'was' a safe road.
It's been extended, and now carried as shitload more traffic than it once
did, and the drivers using it haven't actually realised there was *now* a
need to radically adjust their behaviour.
Of course, that radical change wouldn't be necessary if they'd had their
wits about them all along.

You're right about the manic.
I can't believe the stuff I see there sometimes. And I'm stunned that these
multi-prangs aren't more frequent than they actually are. That fact
suggests the road is innately 'safe', BTW. Which I doubt, but then again,
most who use it do so frequently, I guess.
Believe me, whenever 'surrounded' - and it takes simply extraordinary
strategy to avoid it at times, I stop and wait for the idiots to disperse
to where-ever it is idiots go.
And no, I'm not shy, or frightened. I can rip an interstate trip guite a
deal quicker than the average, and take some risks in the process - but
I'll never take the sort of risk the F3 demands when idiots get out there
and apparently would rather die than be late for work.
And what is this shite about getting home in a hurry anyway?
Avoiding penalties at the childcare centres?
Need to catch the TV news?
Driven by hunger, perhaps?
Maybe, even, there's not enough dunnies positioned along that road?

Amazing stuff.

And then there's QLD's M1. An F3 Horror Story in the making if ever there
was one.
New road, mobs of development feeding more traffic into the thing making
the damm thing full as a tick virtually from the get-go - not to mention a
dedicated group of half-wit users.
If the thing was a 'product', it'd be banned in a heart-beat:-)

((Favourite phenomena - as seen often on the M1 .

Traffic stopped in one of three lanes, two of three lanes a little further
up the road, and three of three a little further again. A veritable sea of
brake lights, in fact, visible for at least a kilometre.
Imbeciles 'encounter' the blocked lane, and change to an unblocked one, and
don't brake at all. Seen 'em do two changes before the message sinks in
that there's no-where to go. Natch, this begets violent braking. Often a
shunt is the result, too.))


And then there are the idiots who fire workers for being late...
They leave two hours earlier just so they can - they read the paper,
butcher the cross-word and quaff coffee while they wait, and first order of
business is to terrorise the late-comers while they try to start work.
These types I've observed over the years don't actually do anything, BTW.
But that's another angle to be canvassed another day - but it *does*
explain some of the desperates on the F3 and most other majors into Cities,
though:-)

Incidentally, Toby has the solution to the (international, it seems)
problems with Freeways.

He just needs to get a patent up, is all....

--
Toby
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur