Microsoft

[MS]

One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get. Gates
has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he spends
$250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay their
employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
gratification, but circulates around in the economy.

Years ago in my business (a long time ago now) we knew we had to
computerise. Everyone said get a Mac. So I went along and was shocked at the
unaffordabilty of the system. $10,000 for starters, plus the rest (thousands
of dollars for applications - the store even wanted to charge $95 for a
printer cable!). Back then, this was a **lot** of money, and out of the
question.

Then someone else suggested a PC. $4000, and I was up and running and doing
more than I ever dreamed of doing on a computer. About 30 PC's later, for me
the rest, as they say, is history.

Gates "democratised" computers. He made them affordable, and available to
everyone. He should praised, not criticised.

The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and "geeky".
Even now in the NG's, look at pc ones and the Mac ones. Years ago I posed a
question on an Illustrator group (still mainly a Mac thing, if only more by
perception than practice) , and was flamed and belittled for "buying $3000
worth of software I couldn't use". Contrast this with comparable PC based
applications groups and you get help, generous sharing of ideas, sharing
code etc.

Just yesterday in an Illustrator group a person asked a perfectly legitimate
question, and they were basically told to piss off, that this was a group
for professionals who make a living with the software and aren't about to
part with trade secrets.

Thanks Bill, without you I never would have had the success I've had.

[Peter]

In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
<Email@Myemail.com> wrote:

> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and "geeky".

You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
products.

Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.

[Jacques Guy]

MS wrote:

> Gates "democratised" computers. He made them affordable, and available to
> everyone. He should praised, not criticised.

He did nothing of the kind. IBM did at first, then all the clone
makers. Read "Big Blues: The Unmaking of IBM" by Paul Carroll.

Try to buy a PC without Windows XP bundled (hint: go to
a Chinese-run shop, have an unbranded one put together. Another
hint: avoid chain stores like, say, Megamart).

Got your PC?

Now try to buy a laptop without Windows bundled. Much, much
harder. I tried. I failed.

That is exactly as if you could not buy a hamburger
from ANY shop (not only MacDonald's) without "MacDonald
Special XP Tomato Ketchup" thrown in and accounting for
10% of the price of the hamburger.

Microsoft is a purely parasitical de facto monopoly.

Let me quote Bill Gates briefing his staff in the early
days, before Windows: "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't
run."

[veritas]

Jacques Guy wrote:

>
> Microsoft is a purely parasitical de facto monopoly.

Very true
>
> Let me quote Bill Gates briefing his staff in the early
> days, before Windows: "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't
> run."

MSDOS was crap - Gate trailed/copied DRDOS (Digital Research) - version for version.

I still use DRDOS for special applications that I wrote (a long time ago) in Clipper.

[MS]

"Peter" <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote in message
news:241120040942372255%spamfromnewsgroups@chatoma tic.net...
> In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
> <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
>> "geeky".
>
> You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
> products.
>
> Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.

Yes, but is this because it's "superior" product, or Microsoft is a bigger,
cooler target to mess around with?

I'll bet if the same number of people who are putting an effort in to
exploit Windows vulnerabilities into attacking the MacOS's, they would be no
safer than MS OS's.

[rhodes]

"Jacques Guy" <jguy@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:41A3E113.4D26@alphalink.com.au...
> MS wrote:
>
>> Gates "democratised" computers. He made them affordable, and available to
>> everyone. He should praised, not criticised.
>
> He did nothing of the kind. IBM did at first, then all the clone
> makers. Read "Big Blues: The Unmaking of IBM" by Paul Carroll.
>
> Try to buy a PC without Windows XP bundled (hint: go to
> a Chinese-run shop, have an unbranded one put together. Another
> hint: avoid chain stores like, say, Megamart).
>
> Got your PC?
>
> Now try to buy a laptop without Windows bundled. Much, much
> harder. I tried. I failed.
>
> That is exactly as if you could not buy a hamburger
> from ANY shop (not only MacDonald's) without "MacDonald
> Special XP Tomato Ketchup" thrown in and accounting for
> 10% of the price of the hamburger.
>
> Microsoft is a purely parasitical de facto monopoly.
>
> Let me quote Bill Gates briefing his staff in the early
> days, before Windows: "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't
> run."

Linux: It aint done till it will read all of Bill's files.
Thats innovation?

[Andy]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:15:15 GMT, Peter
<spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote:

>In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
><Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and "geeky".
>
>You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
>products.
>
>Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.

If you don't use an antivirus, how have you determined that you're not
infected? No all infections are obvious.

[wonderer]

"Peter" <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote in message
news:241120040942372255%spamfromnewsgroups@chatoma tic.net...
> In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
> <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
>> "geeky".
>
> You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
> products.
>
> Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.

you will when macs become more popular

[rhodes]

"wonderer" <afor2217@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:WYUod.46669$K7.15642@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Peter" <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote in message
> news:241120040942372255%spamfromnewsgroups@chatoma tic.net...
>> In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
>> <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
>>> "geeky".
>>
>> You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
>> products.
>>
>> Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.
>
> you will when macs become more popular

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!

....sorry couldnt help myself. Not personal, just a mac thing :-p

[netvegetable]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:43:09 +0000, MS wrote:

> One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get. Gates
> has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he spends
> $250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay their
> employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
> gratification, but circulates around in the economy.

I'm sure he only leaves himself a few meazley million to spend a week on
beer. But I don't criticize him - I just don't want him to rule the world.

[snip]

> Gates "democratised" computers. He made them affordable, and available
> to everyone. He should praised, not criticised.
>
How do you "democratise" a commercial product? Nobody in the Windows world
gets to vote how much bloatware they want in their distro, or how much
spyware, adware, or security holes.

If you want software that really compares to "democracy" look at the
opensource movement. There everyone sees the source code, everybody gets
to pick and chose what features they want on their system.

[snip]

> Thanks Bill, without you I never would have had the success I've had.

I'm sure he's smiling all the way to the bank. Would you normally thank
someone for selling you a box, when you have no idea what's in it?

--
to email me remove the word "NOT" from my addy

#political_forum irc.undernet.org

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

[Peter]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:43:09 GMT, "MS" <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:

>One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get. Gates
>has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he spends
>$250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay their
>employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
>gratification, but circulates around in the economy.
>
There would be every justification to 'regulate' Microsoft's
activities in the same way that monopoly utility companies are
regulated. This is basically what Microsoft has become.

[PBSL]

"Andy" <ask_for_email@here.com> wrote in message
news:ddv7q0tck8vurs9akrpu65dc384rtffk0n@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:15:15 GMT, Peter
> <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
>><Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
>>> "geeky".
>>
>>You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
>>products.
>>
>>Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.
>
> If you don't use an antivirus, how have you determined that you're not
> infected? No all infections are obvious.

so true!
a lot are designed to run in the backround , quietly and not to attract
attention

the Mac is (was?) a closed architecture , unlike the PC which was cloned by
all and sundry,
another reason why virus exist in much greater numbers for pc than Mac.
Also don't be fooled , there are Mac viri just as there exists Linux and
UNIX virus.

Also a lot of these PC viri are clones themselves
variation after variation
there are not as many "concept" viri out there as one would think.

[Peter]

In article <lWQod.46368$K7.23704@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
<Email@Myemail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but is this because it's "superior" product, or Microsoft is a bigger,
> cooler target to mess around with?
>
> I'll bet if the same number of people who are putting an effort in to
> exploit Windows vulnerabilities into attacking the MacOS's, they would be no
> safer than MS OS's.

Nope. Windows system is completely riddled with bugs and security
flaws. MacOS is more secure, and whilst still exploitable, certainly
not as easy.

And I fibbed... I do have virii ware I just update it every 6 months,
discover I have no virus and then ignore it again.

[Diabolik]

"MS" <Email@Myemail.com> wrote in message
news:lWQod.46368$K7.23704@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Peter" <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote in message
> news:241120040942372255%spamfromnewsgroups@chatoma tic.net...
> > In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
> > <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
> >> "geeky".
> >
> > You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
> > products.
> >
> > Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.
>
> Yes, but is this because it's "superior" product, or Microsoft is a
bigger,
> cooler target to mess around with?

The MAC is *definetely* a superior product.


> I'll bet if the same number of people who are putting an effort in to
> exploit Windows vulnerabilities into attacking the MacOS's, they would be
no
> safer than MS OS's.
>
>

[Fitzroy]

"PBSL" <pbsoft_labs@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ym_od.47077$K7.26462@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Andy" <ask_for_email@here.com> wrote in message
> news:ddv7q0tck8vurs9akrpu65dc384rtffk0n@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:15:15 GMT, Peter
> > <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote:
> >
> >>In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
> >><Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
> >>> "geeky".
> >>
> >>You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
> >>products.
> >>
> >>Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.
> >
> > If you don't use an antivirus, how have you determined that you're not
> > infected? No all infections are obvious.
>
> so true!
> a lot are designed to run in the backround , quietly and not to attract
> attention
>
> the Mac is (was?) a closed architecture , unlike the PC which was cloned
by
> all and sundry,
> another reason why virus exist in much greater numbers for pc than Mac.
> Also don't be fooled , there are Mac viri just as there exists Linux and
> UNIX virus.
>
> Also a lot of these PC viri are clones themselves
> variation after variation
> there are not as many "concept" viri out there as one would think.
>

I am not sure that viri is the plural of virus.
But thats not the reason for my post.

I have this problem.
Sometimes, even when I know the gramatically correct
Latin plural, I choose not to use it.

For instance, I cant bring myself to utter the word
'stadia'.
I fear that people will think I am an elitist tosser.

Do others feel this way ?

[Diabolik]

"MS" <Email@Myemail.com> wrote in message
news:N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get.
Gates
> has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he
spends
> $250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay
their
> employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
> gratification, but circulates around in the economy.

That's a different way of looking at it;)


> Years ago in my business (a long time ago now) we knew we had to
> computerise. Everyone said get a Mac. So I went along and was shocked at
the
> unaffordabilty of the system. $10,000 for starters, plus the rest
(thousands
> of dollars for applications - the store even wanted to charge $95 for a
> printer cable!). Back then, this was a **lot** of money, and out of the
> question.
>
> Then someone else suggested a PC. $4000, and I was up and running and
doing
> more than I ever dreamed of doing on a computer. About 30 PC's later, for
me
> the rest, as they say, is history.
>
> Gates "democratised" computers. He made them affordable, and available to
> everyone. He should praised, not criticised.

Agree, Except he copied the OS.

He marketing Windows, but copied his work.

This is from the stooge who said "The internet is just a fad", and then had
to catch up with Mosaic, by buying out and *illegaly* bundling Internet
Explorer into the Windows OS.


> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
"geeky".
> Even now in the NG's, look at pc ones and the Mac ones. Years ago I posed
a
> question on an Illustrator group (still mainly a Mac thing, if only more
by
> perception than practice) , and was flamed and belittled for "buying $3000
> worth of software I couldn't use". Contrast this with comparable PC based
> applications groups and you get help, generous sharing of ideas, sharing
> code etc.
>
> Just yesterday in an Illustrator group a person asked a perfectly
legitimate
> question, and they were basically told to piss off, that this was a group
> for professionals who make a living with the software and aren't about to
> part with trade secrets.
>
> Thanks Bill, without you I never would have had the success I've had.
>
>

[PBSL]

"Fitzroy" <hxh0@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:TQ%od.47231$K7.16018@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "PBSL" <pbsoft_labs@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ym_od.47077$K7.26462@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "Andy" <ask_for_email@here.com> wrote in message
>> news:ddv7q0tck8vurs9akrpu65dc384rtffk0n@4ax.com...
>> > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:15:15 GMT, Peter
>> > <spamfromnewsgroups@chatomatic.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <N9Ood.46032$K7.29870@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, MS
>> >><Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and
>> >>> "geeky".
>> >>
>> >>You get that when the customers know they use a vastly superior
>> >>products.
>> >>
>> >>Had and viruses lately? I haven't and don't use virusware.
>> >
>> > If you don't use an antivirus, how have you determined that you're not
>> > infected? No all infections are obvious.
>>
>> so true!
>> a lot are designed to run in the backround , quietly and not to attract
>> attention
>>
>> the Mac is (was?) a closed architecture , unlike the PC which was cloned
> by
>> all and sundry,
>> another reason why virus exist in much greater numbers for pc than Mac.
>> Also don't be fooled , there are Mac viri just as there exists Linux and
>> UNIX virus.
>>
>> Also a lot of these PC viri are clones themselves
>> variation after variation
>> there are not as many "concept" viri out there as one would think.
>>
>
> I am not sure that viri is the plural of virus.
> But thats not the reason for my post.
>
> I have this problem.
> Sometimes, even when I know the gramatically correct
> Latin plural, I choose not to use it.
>
> For instance, I cant bring myself to utter the word
> 'stadia'.
> I fear that people will think I am an elitist tosser.
>
> Do others feel this way ?

funny you mentioned that because I hesitated when I came to this term
I was going to use viruses then thought- nah , some dickwad will pull me up
and correct me , and I then used what I thought to be the correct term
and that was virii , but the spell checker corrected me and suggested
viri, well as you can see , ya can't win them all so just do yer best

:-)



>
>
>

[Ernest]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:43:09 GMT, "MS" <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:

>One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get. Gates
>has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he spends
>$250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay their
>employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
>gratification, but circulates around in the economy.
>
>Years ago in my business (a long time ago now) we knew we had to
>computerise. Everyone said get a Mac. So I went along and was shocked at the
>unaffordabilty of the system. $10,000 for starters, plus the rest (thousands
>of dollars for applications - the store even wanted to charge $95 for a
>printer cable!). Back then, this was a **lot** of money, and out of the
>question.
>
>Then someone else suggested a PC. $4000, and I was up and running and doing
>more than I ever dreamed of doing on a computer. About 30 PC's later, for me
>the rest, as they say, is history.
>
>Gates "democratised" computers. He made them affordable, and available to
>everyone. He should praised, not criticised.
>
>The Mac may have been a good product, but it seemed too elitist and "geeky".
>Even now in the NG's, look at pc ones and the Mac ones. Years ago I posed a
>question on an Illustrator group (still mainly a Mac thing, if only more by
>perception than practice) , and was flamed and belittled for "buying $3000
>worth of software I couldn't use". Contrast this with comparable PC based
>applications groups and you get help, generous sharing of ideas, sharing
>code etc.
>
>Just yesterday in an Illustrator group a person asked a perfectly legitimate
>question, and they were basically told to piss off, that this was a group
>for professionals who make a living with the software and aren't about to
>part with trade secrets.
>
>Thanks Bill, without you I never would have had the success I've had.
>
two different aspects here.

1. Bill Gates was the first to price software at a reasonable
price and thus made computing available to all. He was lucky
in that he did that at the same time IBM made the PC design
architecture available cheaply to all. The cheap IBM and IBM
clones were no good without the cheap Microsoft software,
it was a beautiful marriage for the average computer user.

2. Microsoft today, and for over a decade, have not properly
written or tested their software code. They use many large
teams and then just 'shove' the sections together. This shows
in the low quality of the coding and the fact that the same
faults and errors keep reappearing in each new lot of software.
The early Windows was well written but since then they have
just patched and added new capability, it is well over due for
a total rewrite by a good coders. But since this will take lots
of time and money don't expect Microsoft to do it until forced.

Also the current MS executives are very predatory in their
business practices, as was (and is) Bill, and it is this attitude
and behaviors that causes a lot of dissatisfaction. Take
Windows (after all Bill did), it is based on code and design
that Apple Macs used that they had stolen from some uni
students, Bill did some work for Apple and suggested that they
copyright the code etc and they declined due to the copyright
fees, so when Bill wanted something similar he used the
available publicly available code. Internet Explorer is based
on the same freely available earlier Mozilla code that Netscape
is based on, one reason why Netscape got little support from
the techs when they claimed Bill stole their code; he did not
he stole it from the same people Netscape stole theirs.


Deadly Ernest

@bywater.net.au

(my new keyboard, with small keys,
accepts full responsibility for all
typographical and spelling errors)

[Peter]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:43:09 GMT, "MS" <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:

>One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get. Gates
>has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he spends
>$250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay their
>employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
>gratification, but circulates around in the economy.
>
He also has been too tight to pay his stockholders a dividend (until
recently) despite having $50 B surplus to business requirements lying
around.

[Sylvia Else]

Peter wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:43:09 GMT, "MS" <Email@Myemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>One thing that irks me is the criticism Microsoft and Bill Gates get. Gates
>>has given billions away for the homeless, the sick etc. Even when he spends
>>$250,000,000 on his house that money goes to the tradespeople, who pay their
>>employees etc, so his wealth is not hoarded and squandered on personal
>>gratification, but circulates around in the economy.
>>
>
> He also has been too tight to pay his stockholders a dividend (until
> recently) despite having $50 B surplus to business requirements lying
> around.

In a rational market, when a company goes exdividend, the market
valuation drops by exactly the amount of the dividend.

So take the two situations where a company does, and doesn't, pay out a
dividend which would represent an income of X for a particular
stockholder. In the latter case, the stockholder can sell X worth of
stock, to get the income, and be left with stock with the same valuation
as it would have had if the company had paid the dividend.

In practice the market isn't totally rational so there are distortions,
which are made even worse when governments tax dividends differently
from capital gains. But neither of these effects are the responsibility
of the company owners.

So, in conclusion, it's misguided to represent company owners who do not
pay dividends as being "tight". It's simply a business strategy that has
an impact on stockholders only because of market distortions that the
owner has no control over.

Sylvia.