Re: Howcome CDs still cost about the same as when they first came out?

[Steve nunya]

Anthony Horan wrote in message
<1f9ibljhv4bys$.1vep1usk1p224.dlg@40tude.net>...
>On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:09:04 +1000, TheMan wrote:
>
>> Look what the pricing department did with DVD movies.
>>
>> When DVD's came out and started to replace VHS, they decided it was a
great
>> time to push the price up. Thats why a DVD version of a movie is around
>> $5-$10 more expensive then the VHS version yet a DVD is much more cheaper
to
>> produce.
>
>A common misconception.
>
>DVDs are cheaper to *replicate* than VHS tapes, but you're forgetting a
>couple of thing.
>
>1. You're paying for the content, not the disc, and
>
>2. DVD Video discs cost a small fortune to author and encode. Mastering a
>VHS tape is trivial by comparison.
>
But once mastered is cheaper in mass repoduction, which is his point.

[Kane \(Ian L\)]

>>DVDs are cheaper to *replicate* than VHS tapes, but you're forgetting a
>>couple of thing.
>>
>>1. You're paying for the content, not the disc, and
>>
>>2. DVD Video discs cost a small fortune to author and encode. Mastering a
>>VHS tape is trivial by comparison.
>>
> But once mastered is cheaper in mass repoduction, which is his point.

well how do you think they are supposed to pay for the mastering in the
first place if they aren't going to make any money off the discs themselves?

[The Poster With The Longest Name On A Public Newsg]

"Kane (Ian L)" wrote:

> >>DVDs are cheaper to *replicate* than VHS tapes, but you're forgetting a
> >>couple of thing.
> >>
> >>1. You're paying for the content, not the disc, and
> >>
> >>2. DVD Video discs cost a small fortune to author and encode. Mastering a
> >>VHS tape is trivial by comparison.
> >>
> > But once mastered is cheaper in mass repoduction, which is his point.
>
> well how do you think they are supposed to pay for the mastering in the
> first place if they aren't going to make any money off the discs themselves?




Hey for one thing I think $19 is the most you should have
to pay for current release albums and chart CDs.... You
shouldn't have to wait for "specials" or such....

[Steve nunya]

Kane (Ian L) wrote in message ...
>>>DVDs are cheaper to *replicate* than VHS tapes, but you're forgetting a
>>>couple of thing.
>>>
>>>1. You're paying for the content, not the disc, and
>>>
>>>2. DVD Video discs cost a small fortune to author and encode. Mastering a
>>>VHS tape is trivial by comparison.
>>>
>> But once mastered is cheaper in mass repoduction, which is his point.
>
>well how do you think they are supposed to pay for the mastering in the
>first place if they aren't going to make any money off the discs
themselves?
>
>
I never said they shouldn't make any money after all thats the whole point.
But if a disc costs under a dollar to produce you cant justify $20+ price
tag for music Cd's
and the $50+ price tag on movies.
Most if not all the big companies would master DVD's in house so costs would
be reduced.
Software is improving and making it easier all the time, some of the home PC
stuff is pretty good.

These greedy companies dont see the writting on the wall right in front of
their face.
they will never stop the internet, Broadband is slowly becomeing more
widespread.
DVD burners are cheap and the media is now cheap.
For the most part the average Joe would prefer the real deal.
But for an average Flick you might watch once/twice a year, your just not
gunna spend the cash.
It's not about the moral issue of right or wrong. its about competition.
they will price themselves out of a market.

And sooking about it while sipping the best champagne in the back of the
Limo
on the way to a 5star hotel doesn't help.
crying "we made it, thats our product, you taking our lively hood away"
while
wearing the latest Itailian suit or Paris fashion walking into thier private
jet
get little sympathy from Mr/Mrs/Miss Blue collar.
When the Little guy at the market gets on TV being closed down
And a suit wearing market man is interviewed and say this is right and
proper.
this smacks of big bussiness shutting down the little guy
Yes it's the law but part of the consumer feel something is wrong.
I don't know anybody who hasn't got at least 1 burnt copy of something.
Most have more burnt than legit.

If they want to keep the prices up and pushing the legal side
it will only get worse for them.
If they cut the cost of the product and reduced profit margins
they could then compete with the pirates and they would sell more.
every other industry in the world eventually needs to adjust to competition
Why are the boffins from the entertainment industry any different?

[Kane \(Ian L\)]

>>well how do you think they are supposed to pay for the mastering in the
>>first place if they aren't going to make any money off the discs
> themselves?
>>
>>
> I never said they shouldn't make any money after all thats the whole
> point.

<snip rant>

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... Even if
you win, you're still retarded"

[Anthony Horan]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:56:57 +1030, Steve nunya wrote:

> I never said they shouldn't make any money after all thats the whole point.
> But if a disc costs under a dollar to produce you cant justify $20+ price
> tag for music Cd's

Ever thought about what it costs to record, mix, master and market a
record? Ever thought that the company and/or people taking the financial
risk - often a substantial one - should see some reward?

You're not just buying a polycarbonate/aluminium disc. You're buying
content.

Each copy of Halo 2 for the Xbox costs less than a dollar to replicate as
well, but it retails for $100. Why? You're paying for the content on the
disc, not the disc itself.

> and the $50+ price tag on movies.

$50+? Since when?

> Most if not all the big companies would master DVD's in house so costs would
> be reduced.

Many of the big companies contract DVD mastering out. Many more do so here
in Australia.

Those that author in-house have multi-million dollar investments in
authoring facilities to recoup.

And let's not get started on the film-to-video transfer. Ever tried to find
out how much a high definition, dual-standard, state-of-the-art transfer
costs? It's not cheap. Not even close.

> Software is improving and making it easier all the time, some of the home PC
> stuff is pretty good.

If you want to put the family picnic on DVD, good for you. Commercial DVDs
are authored, encoded and mastered on professional equipment and software.

> It's not about the moral issue of right or wrong. its about competition.
> they will price themselves out of a market.

Really? Even though prices are dropping?

The market is what dictates prices.

> And sooking about it while sipping the best champagne in the back of the Limo
> on the way to a 5star hotel doesn't help.
> crying "we made it, thats our product, you taking our lively hood away" while
> wearing the latest Itailian suit or Paris fashion walking into thier private
> jet get little sympathy from Mr/Mrs/Miss Blue collar.
> When the Little guy at the market gets on TV being closed down
> And a suit wearing market man is interviewed and say this is right and

Of *course* it's right and proper. Learn a little bit about the relevant
laws. Companies cannot be seen to be tolerant of violation of their
copyrights. No exceptions.

> this smacks of big bussiness shutting down the little guy

If the "little guy" is a criminal making a living out of illegally selling
pirated DVDs at Caribbean Gardens, well, he gets exactly what he deserves.

If someone steals your car, drive it to work and back and then give it back
to you, undamaged and refueled, they still get charged with car theft.

> every other industry in the world eventually needs to adjust to competition
> Why are the boffins from the entertainment industry any different?

The best way to deal with competition from criminals is to have the crims
put in jail. And that, as anyone with a double-digit IQ would know, is just
basic business sense.


- Anthony

[Toby Ponsenby]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:46:56 +1100, Anthony Horan wrote:

> The best way to deal with competition from criminals is to have the crims
> put in jail. And that, as anyone with a double-digit IQ would know, is just
> basic business sense.

Even better business sense is to get in there and define who gets to
be the criminals. Of course, the best approach is via money - obtained
by criminals in the first place.
That achieved, laugh all the way to the bank.


--
Toby
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

[Kane \(Ian L\)]

> The best way to deal with competition from criminals is to have the crims
> put in jail. And that, as anyone with a double-digit IQ would know, is
> just
> basic business sense.

detaining people in prison who pose no threat to society in a physical sense
is simply a waste of money. Large monetary fines and community service as
well as education/rehab/support is a far better way to operate.

[The Poster With The Longest Name On A Public Newsg]

"Kane (Ian L)" wrote:

> > The best way to deal with competition from criminals is to have the crims
> > put in jail. And that, as anyone with a double-digit IQ would know, is
> > just
> > basic business sense.
>
> detaining people in prison who pose no threat to society in a physical sense
> is simply a waste of money. Large monetary fines and community service as
> well as education/rehab/support is a far better way to operate.



And what would a rehab program for CD copying be like?

[Ernest]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:13:02 +1030, "Steve nunya" <dont@bother.com>
wrote:

>
>Anthony Horan wrote in message
><1f9ibljhv4bys$.1vep1usk1p224.dlg@40tude.net>...
>>On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:09:04 +1000, TheMan wrote:
>>
>>> Look what the pricing department did with DVD movies.
>>>
>>> When DVD's came out and started to replace VHS, they decided it was a
>great
>>> time to push the price up. Thats why a DVD version of a movie is around
>>> $5-$10 more expensive then the VHS version yet a DVD is much more cheaper
>to
>>> produce.
>>
>>A common misconception.
>>
>>DVDs are cheaper to *replicate* than VHS tapes, but you're forgetting a
>>couple of thing.
>>
>>1. You're paying for the content, not the disc, and
>>
>>2. DVD Video discs cost a small fortune to author and encode. Mastering a
>>VHS tape is trivial by comparison.
>>
>But once mastered is cheaper in mass repoduction, which is his point.
>
CDs and DVDs, as discs are much cheaper as are the equipment to
make the discs and to copy to them. Look at the retails price of
burnable CDs and DVDs, CDs are now under a dollar each retail,
they used to be $10 each when first released, burnable DVDs
are down to about $5 each instead of the $20 originally. The
manufacturing costs are much lower than for VHS tapes.

yet the prerecorded stuff costs lots because the companies
like to rip off the customers and charge all they think the
traffic will bear. If people refused to buy at the high prices
they will come down. Ever notice how the price of the new
release drops after a few months?

Deadly Ernest

@bywater.net.au

(my new keyboard, with small keys,
accepts full responsibility for all
typographical and spelling errors)

[Steve nunya]

Kane (Ian L) wrote in message ...
>>>well how do you think they are supposed to pay for the mastering in the
>>>first place if they aren't going to make any money off the discs
>> themselves?
>>>
>>>
>> I never said they shouldn't make any money after all thats the whole
>> point.
>
><snip rant>
>
>"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... Even if
>you win, you're still retarded"
>
>
ROFL...so true..
wheres my helmet

[Kane \(Ian L\)]

> And what would a rehab program for CD copying be like?

being a roadie for Mariah Carey

[Anthony Horan]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:18:52 +1100, Ernest wrote:

> CDs and DVDs, as discs are much cheaper as are the equipment to
> make the discs and to copy to them. Look at the retails price of
> burnable CDs and DVDs, CDs are now under a dollar each retail,
> they used to be $10 each when first released, burnable DVDs
> are down to about $5 each instead of the $20 originally.

DVD recordables are actually down below $2 in jewel cases, even less in
spindles. Recordable CDs are also much cheaper than you suggest.

> yet the prerecorded stuff costs lots because the companies
> like to rip off the customers and charge all they think the
> traffic will bear.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: you're not just paying for the
physical disc. You're paying for what's recorded on it.

> If people refused to buy at the high prices
> they will come down. Ever notice how the price of the new
> release drops after a few months?

In many cases, it actually goes UP after heavy discounting around the time
of release.


- Anthony

[The Poster With The Longest Name On A Public Newsg]

Anthony Horan wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:18:52 +1100, Ernest wrote:
>
> > CDs and DVDs, as discs are much cheaper as are the equipment to
> > make the discs and to copy to them. Look at the retails price of
> > burnable CDs and DVDs, CDs are now under a dollar each retail,
> > they used to be $10 each when first released, burnable DVDs
> > are down to about $5 each instead of the $20 originally.
>
> DVD recordables are actually down below $2 in jewel cases, even less in
> spindles. Recordable CDs are also much cheaper than you suggest.
>
> > yet the prerecorded stuff costs lots because the companies
> > like to rip off the customers and charge all they think the
> > traffic will bear.
>
> I've said it once, I'll say it again: you're not just paying for the
> physical disc. You're paying for what's recorded on it.
>
> > If people refused to buy at the high prices
> > they will come down. Ever notice how the price of the new
> > release drops after a few months?
>
> In many cases, it actually goes UP after heavy discounting around the time
> of release.



True.... It does indeed. Which at first glance seems odd

[The Poster With The Longest Name On A Public Newsg]

"Kane (Ian L)" wrote:

> > And what would a rehab program for CD copying be like?
>
> being a roadie for Mariah Carey

Oompha Oompha

[Robert Atkins]

In article <1mkcicg09pedb.1wuq9wc1d0hlw$.dlg@40tude.net>, Anthony Horan wrote:
>
> You're not just buying a polycarbonate/aluminium disc. You're buying
> content.

The recording and music industries have had this one both ways for
a while now and it shits me: if I'm buying a polycarbonate/aluminium
disc, I should be able to do what the hell I want with it -- including
decoding the pattern of pits thereon into music or video, copying
that to my hard drive and hell, chopping it up and using parts of
it in my own music or video and selling it again.

OR

If I'm buying a license to hear/view the media encoded on the disc, I
should be able to swap out a scratched version of the media for a
nominal fee, like a couple of bucks. DVD rot, anyone? :-)

They can't have it both ways.

>> It's not about the moral issue of right or wrong. its about competition.
>> they will price themselves out of a market.
>
> Really? Even though prices are dropping?
>
> The market is what dictates prices.

In a pure market yes, but what we have here is an oligopoly. But that's
a different argument.

> Of *course* it's right and proper. Learn a little bit about the relevant
> laws. Companies cannot be seen to be tolerant of violation of their
> copyrights. No exceptions.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't be cynical.

> If someone steals your car, drive it to work and back and then give it back
> to you, undamaged and refueled, they still get charged with car theft.

Yes, but you also do not have use of your car while the theif has it in
his or her posession. Each pirate copy of a CD or DVD does not deplete
the inventory of the copyright owner by one, and does not even translate
into a lost sale, no matter what they might try and tell you.

> The best way to deal with competition from criminals is to have the crims
> put in jail. And that, as anyone with a double-digit IQ would know, is just
> basic business sense.

Exactly! The major label bosses should be thrown in the clink
immediately! :-)

Of course I'm not advocating wholesale piracy as that would lead to the
total collapse of the music industry (hmm, on the other hand...). I
do think the way the system works currently is demonstrably unfair to
both artists and consumers and I have very little sympathy for giant
media companies who are using legal means to retain their control of a
market that is not, in actuality, theirs to own.

Cheers, Robert.

[Natalie]

Anthony Horan wrote:
>
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:18:52 +1100, Ernest wrote:
>
> > If people refused to buy at the high prices
> > they will come down. Ever notice how the price of the new
> > release drops after a few months?
>
> In many cases, it actually goes UP after heavy discounting around the time
> of release.

I'd argue with you there. The big record labels often go into budget
mode with big artists after 12 months, sometimes even less. Course it
pays to shop around, what's $30 @ Sanity may be $20 @ Kmart, and
sometimes it's the other way around.

Natalie

[Ernest]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:16:54 +1100, Anthony Horan
<anthonyhoran@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:18:52 +1100, Ernest wrote:
>
>> CDs and DVDs, as discs are much cheaper as are the equipment to
>> make the discs and to copy to them. Look at the retails price of
>> burnable CDs and DVDs, CDs are now under a dollar each retail,
>> they used to be $10 each when first released, burnable DVDs
>> are down to about $5 each instead of the $20 originally.
>
>DVD recordables are actually down below $2 in jewel cases, even less in
>spindles. Recordable CDs are also much cheaper than you suggest.
>
so I have bought any for about 12 months, at it shows.

>> yet the prerecorded stuff costs lots because the companies
>> like to rip off the customers and charge all they think the
>> traffic will bear.
>
>I've said it once, I'll say it again: you're not just paying for the
>physical disc. You're paying for what's recorded on it.
>
Having been in cost accounting I know you are paying for
more than the disc. However, if the royalties and profits
etc are built into the performance licence, which is what
you really buy when getting a prerecorded item, then
that licence should be a flat fee for that particular recording.
Say the Shrek2 licence is $10.00 per copy then it should
be $10.00 onto the manufacture and shipping and market ting
costs for the VCR and the DVD. It is about $10 cheaper
to make a DVD in bulk than making a VCR in bulk yet the
DVD is NOT $10.00 cheaper, it is often dearer. An the
reason there is supply and demand, charging all the
traffic will bear. Same with music CDs.

>> If people refused to buy at the high prices
>> they will come down. Ever notice how the price of the new
>> release drops after a few months?
>
>In many cases, it actually goes UP after heavy discounting around the time
>of release.
>
>
>- Anthony

I rarely buy within 6 months of release and usually
get it for about half ther release price or less. So the
prices do drop after release. Usually what happens
is that the shops give a 10% or 15% discount to get
the sales whilst everyone is buying, after a month
those discounts stop, after five months or so they
go on the reduced price list and then the reduced
stock sales. The reason for this is that the agents
and manufacturers would rather give the shop a
credit to allow it to be sold cheaper than pay the
costs of accounting for having them returned.

Deadly Ernest

@bywater.net.au

(my new keyboard, with small keys,
accepts full responsibility for all
typographical and spelling errors)

[DJ]

Anthony, you should just have all of those points as your sig to save
yourself the effort of typing it out everytime :-)

Seriously, I can't understand why people don't understand that they are
paying for the content and not just a physical bit of plastic. I've had this
same argument with family and friends many times.

DJ


"Anthony Horan" <anthonyhoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1mkcicg09pedb.1wuq9wc1d0hlw$.dlg@40tude.net.. .
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:56:57 +1030, Steve nunya wrote:
>
>> I never said they shouldn't make any money after all thats the whole
>> point.
>> But if a disc costs under a dollar to produce you cant justify $20+ price
>> tag for music Cd's
>
> Ever thought about what it costs to record, mix, master and market a
> record? Ever thought that the company and/or people taking the financial
> risk - often a substantial one - should see some reward?
>
> You're not just buying a polycarbonate/aluminium disc. You're buying
> content.
>
> Each copy of Halo 2 for the Xbox costs less than a dollar to replicate as
> well, but it retails for $100. Why? You're paying for the content on the
> disc, not the disc itself.
>
>> and the $50+ price tag on movies.
>
> $50+? Since when?
>
>> Most if not all the big companies would master DVD's in house so costs
>> would
>> be reduced.
>
> Many of the big companies contract DVD mastering out. Many more do so here
> in Australia.
>
> Those that author in-house have multi-million dollar investments in
> authoring facilities to recoup.
>
> And let's not get started on the film-to-video transfer. Ever tried to
> find
> out how much a high definition, dual-standard, state-of-the-art transfer
> costs? It's not cheap. Not even close.
>
>> Software is improving and making it easier all the time, some of the home
>> PC
>> stuff is pretty good.
>
> If you want to put the family picnic on DVD, good for you. Commercial DVDs
> are authored, encoded and mastered on professional equipment and software.
>
>> It's not about the moral issue of right or wrong. its about competition.
>> they will price themselves out of a market.
>
> Really? Even though prices are dropping?
>
> The market is what dictates prices.
>
>> And sooking about it while sipping the best champagne in the back of the
>> Limo
>> on the way to a 5star hotel doesn't help.
>> crying "we made it, thats our product, you taking our lively hood away"
>> while
>> wearing the latest Itailian suit or Paris fashion walking into thier
>> private
>> jet get little sympathy from Mr/Mrs/Miss Blue collar.
>> When the Little guy at the market gets on TV being closed down
>> And a suit wearing market man is interviewed and say this is right and
>
> Of *course* it's right and proper. Learn a little bit about the relevant
> laws. Companies cannot be seen to be tolerant of violation of their
> copyrights. No exceptions.
>
>> this smacks of big bussiness shutting down the little guy
>
> If the "little guy" is a criminal making a living out of illegally selling
> pirated DVDs at Caribbean Gardens, well, he gets exactly what he deserves.
>
> If someone steals your car, drive it to work and back and then give it
> back
> to you, undamaged and refueled, they still get charged with car theft.
>
>> every other industry in the world eventually needs to adjust to
>> competition
>> Why are the boffins from the entertainment industry any different?
>
> The best way to deal with competition from criminals is to have the crims
> put in jail. And that, as anyone with a double-digit IQ would know, is
> just
> basic business sense.
>
>
> - Anthony

[Kane \(Ian L\)]

> Seriously, I can't understand why people don't understand that they are
> paying for the content and not just a physical bit of plastic. I've had
> this same argument with family and friends many times.

I think it is because people are generally stupid and/or selfish

In the case of David Z, there are many more redeeming qualities too numerous
to list