253 V8 vs 3.8 V6...

[BMack]

Hi all,
I know this point has been bought up time and time again, but what are
your opinions on this matter?

My 253 has been very mildly worked, and certainly has some trouble
with the commodore v6 up to about 80km/h - thats when I toast em ;-)

My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with the gearing in
newer cars to make em go better?

I know my 253 has only an M20 trans. so first gear is very short (only
50km/h), whereas an M21 can get you to almost 80 in first, 120 second
etc...

My blue 253 has a V7X manifold, extractors and a QJet (rebuilt to
perfection).

Any thoughts?

[The Raven]

"BMack" <mackeb@cen.prendiville.wa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:c9c5bc7b.0412030337.63c1ffa1@posting.google.c om...
> Hi all,
> I know this point has been bought up time and time again, but what are
> your opinions on this matter?
>
> My 253 has been very mildly worked, and certainly has some trouble
> with the commodore v6 up to about 80km/h - thats when I toast em ;-)

Perhaps..... ;-)


> My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with the gearing in
> newer cars to make em go better?

I think the gearing is still pretty much comparable (can't remember it off
hand) to the V8. Perhaps a bit lower but then the overall gearing is higher.

> I know my 253 has only an M20 trans. so first gear is very short (only
> 50km/h), whereas an M21 can get you to almost 80 in first, 120 second
> etc...
>
> My blue 253 has a V7X manifold, extractors and a QJet (rebuilt to
> perfection).
>
> Any thoughts?

Just speculating but it's probably still less than the advertised peak
outputs of the V6's. However, you probably have a better overall torque
spread (eg. area under the torque curve).

In a straight line drawn out race, I'd suspect the V6 to lose out on the low
end, be roughly similar in the middle, and then eventually win out at top
end. Of course, this is academic because we're ignoring gearing and
aerodynamics.

As for performance against fuel consumption, the V6 would probably win.
Still, a good 253 goes very nicely and sounds very sweet.

BTW I'm also considering the S/C V6 in this equation and suspect the newer
190Kw versions would be marginally stronger (if only at peak).

--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** Now I will bring chaos to the world!

[a9x5l]

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:37:22 -0800, BMack wrote:

> Hi all,
> I know this point has been bought up time and time again, but what are
> your opinions on this matter?
>
> My 253 has been very mildly worked, and certainly has some trouble with
> the commodore v6 up to about 80km/h - thats when I toast em ;-)

Racing on the street is a waste of time if you want to compare
performance. Try running your car over the quarter to get some real
figures to work with.

>
> My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with the gearing in newer
> cars to make em go better?

They have a better torque curve and gearing.

>
> I know my 253 has only an M20 trans. so first gear is very short (only
> 50km/h), whereas an M21 can get you to almost 80 in first, 120 second
> etc...

It would probably be even slower(acceleration, not speed) with an M21 as
a 253 usually doesn't have enough torque to pull a high first gear.

>
> My blue 253 has a V7X manifold, extractors and a QJet (rebuilt to
> perfection).

Is there such a thing as a perfect carby??

>
> Any thoughts?

--
a9x5l

[John McKenzie]

BMack wrote:

> My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with the gearing in
> newer cars to make em go better?

first gear in a th700 (and what superseded it afaik) is fairly low
compared to first in a trimatic. That does give them that 'kick' off the
line.

If you were running an auto, it'd no doubt be slower,

>
> I know my 253 has only an M20 trans. so first gear is very short (only
> 50km/h), whereas an M21 can get you to almost 80 in first, 120 second
> etc...

For a stocker an m20 might have an edge. To be honest the 'issue' with
an m20 for race stuff isn't strictly just the wider ratios, it's the
spread from 3rd to top in particular.

> My blue 253 has a V7X manifold, extractors and a QJet (rebuilt to
> perfection).
>
> Any thoughts?

It's one of those mhow long is a piece of string things. Personally,
I'd not choose either, I'd suggest a 5 litre holden v8 with efi heads
(even in an older car) out of the basic holden v8 or v6 structure.

The 5 litre doesn't really weigh much more (the crank counterweights are
a touch heavier afaik, and the pistons are, but it's a minor thing) and
will easily out torque a v6 unless put together by a complete muppet.


--
John McKenzie

tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com
abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com fraudinfo@psinet.com
sweep.day@accc.gov.au uce@ftc.gov admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost
$LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost $USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost
root@mailloop.com president@whitehouse.gov vice.president@whitehouse.gov
abuse@iprimus.com.au abuse@cia.gov abuse@fbi.gov abuse@asio.gov.au
abuse@federalpolice.gov.au

[athol]

a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Racing on the street is a waste of time if you want to compare
> performance.

True. Unless you know that you can comprehensively toast the other
car, racing on the street generally just makes you look like every
other try hard wanker out there.

> Try running your car over the quarter to get some real
> figures to work with.

That way even more people will know that you're a wanker. If you're
going to drag race, build a drag car. If you're going to have a
street legal car, drag racing is one of the stupidest things to do
with it. Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially
a more severe version of what the car would do on the street...

> Is there such a thing as a perfect carby??

Yep, and it isn't for petrol. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[a9x5l]

> That way even more people will know that you're a wanker. If you're going
> to drag race, build a drag car. If you're going to have a street legal
> car, drag racing is one of the stupidest things to do with it. Track days
> on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more severe version of
> what the car would do on the street...
>

Can you please explain why drag racing a street car is "one of the
stupidest things to do with it" whereas driving around a circuit is not?


--
a9x5l

[Forg]

BMack wrote:
....
> My 253 has been very mildly worked, and certainly
> has some trouble with the commodore v6 up to about
> 80km/h - thats when I toast em ;-)
>
> My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with
> the gearing in newer cars to make em go better?
....

No, they've just got a shiteload more power-per-litre, basically as a
result of EFI. :) Remember that the majority of V6 Commodes (excepting
the rattly falling-apart really early ones) are prolly 25%-50% heavier
than anything that had a 253 in it ...

As for being quicker from 80km/h, it's definitely always been a feature
of the VN-VY that they hit a brick-wall at around 120km/h or so; they've
got good low-down torque, but are a bit breathless if needing to rev at
all. On the other hand, there's a good chance the work you've done to
your car has added more to top-end than bottom-end, as well.


--
---
Forg! -DUH#6-

----------------------------------------------
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Brought to you by DUH!Inc.
DUH!Inc; Building Synergistic Wellness For All

[Tom Walker]

In my experience, anything with a 4 speed auto usually gets a trimatic
driven 8 up until about the 80km/h mark.... Typically, things running a 4
speed box will also be running a lower (3.45:1 for eg.) rear axle ratio that
still gives it a higher km/h/rpm with the o/d 4th but also allows it to be a
bit peppier off the line. My worked Rover 3.5 V8 running through a trimatic
and 2.84 diff just starts moving at 60km/h and will hold first to 100km/h @
6000rpm in first by which time its a fair way in front of a VP 3.8. Still,
Id like to drop a 4 speed in it and see how she goes ;)

TW

[John_H]

BMack wrote:

>I know this point has been bought up time and time again, but what are
>your opinions on this matter?
>
>My 253 has been very mildly worked, and certainly has some trouble
>with the commodore v6 up to about 80km/h - thats when I toast em ;-)
>
>My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with the gearing in
>newer cars to make em go better?

To take it right back to basics, acceleration over distance is
determined by power to weight and, with the exception of top gear
acceleration, has little do with gearing provided that the step up
ratios are such that the engine is able to stay within its power band
over the whole distance. Of course it also has to be able to reach
its power band rapidly at launch.

What you're comparing is acceleration in individual intermediate gears
which really counts for shit, unless you're heavily into 60 to 100 kph
drag racing (which only counts for slightly more).

That's aside from the fact is that the 253 was a great slug barely
able to pull a sausage of a greasy plate. Which isn't to say the 3.8
is anything special either.

Of course what you can do with a modified engine, by increasing the
power, is something else again. :)

>
>I know my 253 has only an M20 trans. so first gear is very short (only
>50km/h), whereas an M21 can get you to almost 80 in first, 120 second
>etc...
>
>My blue 253 has a V7X manifold, extractors and a QJet (rebuilt to
>perfection).
>
>Any thoughts?

--
John H

[Neil Gerace]

"Forg" <Forg@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:41b151ef$0$21280$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> BMack wrote:
> ...
> > My 253 has been very mildly worked, and certainly
> > has some trouble with the commodore v6 up to about
> > 80km/h - thats when I toast em ;-)
> >
> > My thoughts were perhaps holden screwed around with
> > the gearing in newer cars to make em go better?

> As for being quicker from 80km/h, it's definitely always been a feature of
> the VN-VY that they hit a brick-wall at around 120km/h or so; they've got
> good low-down torque, but are a bit breathless if needing to rev at all.
> On the other hand, there's a good chance the work you've done to your car
> has added more to top-end than bottom-end, as well.

Holden and all the others *have* screwed around with the gearing, but it's
to make the fuel economy better at the expense of acceleration when you need
it.

[athol]

a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com> wrote:
> athol wrote: [attribution reinserted because some f*ing idiot
> left it out]

>> That way even more people will know that you're a wanker. If you're going
>> to drag race, build a drag car. If you're going to have a street legal
>> car, drag racing is one of the stupidest things to do with it. Track days
>> on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more severe version of
>> what the car would do on the street...

> Can you please explain why drag racing a street car is "one of the
> stupidest things to do with it" whereas driving around a circuit is not?

Learn to read. Read the paragraph again. Work on your comprehension
skills. Your question is already answered in the section that you
quoted.

Oh, and while you're brushing up on your reading and comprehension
skills, learn how to leave attributions in when quoting posts.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[athol]

Tom Walker <roverREMOVEMEsd1@optusremovemenet.com.au> wrote:
> In my experience, anything with a 4 speed auto usually gets a trimatic
> driven 8 up until about the 80km/h mark.... Typically, things running a 4
> speed box will also be running a lower (3.45:1 for eg.) rear axle ratio

IIRC, the VN/VP commodes run 3.08.

> that
> still gives it a higher km/h/rpm with the o/d 4th but also allows it to be a
> bit peppier off the line.

The T700R4, 4L60 and 4L60E have a lower 1st gear and wider ratio spread.

That's what makes them better off the line.

> My worked Rover 3.5 V8 running through a trimatic
> and 2.84 diff

You went to the trouble of changing from a borg-warner or asin-warner
auto to a traumatic? That's a very strange thing to do!

> just starts moving at 60km/h and will hold first to 100km/h @
> 6000rpm in first by which time its a fair way in front of a VP 3.8. Still,
> Id like to drop a 4 speed in it and see how she goes ;)

My volvo has a T350 auto with a 2.47 diff ratio. A V6 commode can beat me
for the first 2m or so if they get a good launch. :-) I'd like to fit a
4L60 to lower 1st and give a more comfortable top gear. I might even
consider lowering the diff ratio if I did that... The T350 is in good
condition so I'll wait until it shows a problem before rebuilding the 4L60
that's sitting in the back of the shed.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[a9x5l]

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 01:22:19 +0000, athol wrote:

> a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> athol wrote: [attribution reinserted because some f*ing idiot
>> left it out]
>
>>> That way even more people will know that you're a wanker. If you're
>>> going to drag race, build a drag car. If you're going to have a street
>>> legal car, drag racing is one of the stupidest things to do with it.
>>> Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more
>>> severe version of what the car would do on the street...
>
>> Can you please explain why drag racing a street car is "one of the
>> stupidest things to do with it" whereas driving around a circuit is not?
>
> Learn to read. Read the paragraph again. Work on your comprehension
> skills. Your question is already answered in the section that you quoted.
>
> Oh, and while you're brushing up on your reading and comprehension skills,
> learn how to leave attributions in when quoting posts.

Sorry about the attribute error;-)

"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more severe
version of what the car would do on the street"...

I gather that this is the part that I was supposed to comprehend? If so,
I'd still like to understand why you think drag racing a street car is so
stupid. Just because it doesn't simulate street driving as closely as
circuit racing doesn't make it a stupid thing to do, does it?

As for purpose built race cars, not everyone can afford to have a purpose
built drag car and the sport wouldn't exist today without people getting
involved, usually starting with a street car and progressing from there.


The other quote that got my attention was,

"That way even more people will know that you're a wanker"...

If you've ever been to a drag race meeting(or test'n'tune) you'd realise
that it's not about having the fastest car and making everyone else look
like a wanker, but about being disciplined and consistent. Bettering
results is usually the goal for most hobby racers. The real *wankers* are
the clowns you see racing from the stop light's on public roads, not those
with the balls to take their car to a track(any) and have a go.

--
a9x5l

[OzOne]

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:22:04 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com>
scribbled thusly:


>"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more severe
>version of what the car would do on the street"...

Anyone who drives at any time on other than closed public roads
anything like they would on the track deserves to have their licence
shredded!
>



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

[a9x5l]

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:52:20 +1100, wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:22:04 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com> scribbled
> thusly:
>
>
>>"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more
>>severe version of what the car would do on the street"...
>
> Anyone who drives at any time on other than closed public roads anything
> like they would on the track deserves to have their licence shredded!
>>

I was going to argue the point on that one too, as under normal conditions
driving on a road is nothing like racing on a circuit, but hey, what would
I know, I'm just a "f*ing idiot" who can't read and has no comprehension
skills:-)

--
a9x5l

[OzOne]

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:21:58 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com>
scribbled thusly:

>, I'm just a "f*ing idiot" who can't read and has no comprehension
>skills:-)

Ahhh well, if the cap fits :-)


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

[Neil Gerace]

<OzOne> wrote in message news:uti5r0po2hf8rtaon3hf3ol714g3k3aou4@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:22:04 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com>
> scribbled thusly:
>
>
>>"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more severe
>>version of what the car would do on the street"...
>
> Anyone who drives at any time on other than closed public roads
> anything like they would on the track deserves to have their licence
> shredded!

Not true at all. He said 'more severe'.

[OzOne]

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:42:49 +0800, "Neil Gerace"
<geracen@iinet.net.au> scribbled thusly:

>
><OzOne> wrote in message news:uti5r0po2hf8rtaon3hf3ol714g3k3aou4@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:22:04 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com>
>> scribbled thusly:
>>
>>
>>>"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more severe
>>>version of what the car would do on the street"...
>>
>> Anyone who drives at any time on other than closed public roads
>> anything like they would on the track deserves to have their licence
>> shredded!
>
>Not true at all. He said 'more severe'.
>

And I said "anything like"



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

[Neil Gerace]

<OzOne> wrote in message news:vgo6r0h9ne2saja4ihoaqflru29264u6ea@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:42:49 +0800, "Neil Gerace"
> <geracen@iinet.net.au> scribbled thusly:
>
>>
>><OzOne> wrote in message
>>news:uti5r0po2hf8rtaon3hf3ol714g3k3aou4@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:22:04 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com>
>>> scribbled thusly:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more
>>>>severe
>>>>version of what the car would do on the street"...
>>>
>>> Anyone who drives at any time on other than closed public roads
>>> anything like they would on the track deserves to have their licence
>>> shredded!
>>
>>Not true at all. He said 'more severe'.
>>
>
> And I said "anything like"

Well, on the track I accelerate, brake, steer and change gears. I do all
those things on the street too; should I have my licence shredded?

[OzOne]

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:28:00 +0800, "Neil Gerace"
<geracen@iinet.net.au> scribbled thusly:

>
><OzOne> wrote in message news:vgo6r0h9ne2saja4ihoaqflru29264u6ea@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:42:49 +0800, "Neil Gerace"
>> <geracen@iinet.net.au> scribbled thusly:
>>
>>>
>>><OzOne> wrote in message
>>>news:uti5r0po2hf8rtaon3hf3ol714g3k3aou4@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:22:04 +1100, a9x5l <a9x5l@hotmail.com>
>>>> scribbled thusly:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Track days on a circuit are far more relevant - essentially a more
>>>>>severe
>>>>>version of what the car would do on the street"...
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who drives at any time on other than closed public roads
>>>> anything like they would on the track deserves to have their licence
>>>> shredded!
>>>
>>>Not true at all. He said 'more severe'.
>>>
>>
>> And I said "anything like"
>
>Well, on the track I accelerate, brake, steer and change gears. I do all
>those things on the street too; should I have my licence shredded?
>
Only if you do them with anything like the gusto that trackwork
requires.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.