Re Internet scams for speakers

[GeoOscar]

Thankyou all respondents for your advice and warnings - which has been
heeded. Am now following up the kitset speaker option suggestions, as well
as considering the option to replace the disintegrating surround foams on my
old AR38 woofers (one reason for needing new speakers). One issue I would
like to raise is the issue of not being able to buy decent Hifi speakers for
under $1000, as suggested by one respondent. Maybe I am getting past it,
but I used to believe there was hi fi for the above-average music
lover............................and then there was High End Audiophile
quality for the purists with exceptional hearing/ a passion for the best/ or
music afficionados. Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being over
50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still believe
that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc. Am I
right or wrong, or is this one of those perennial debates where there is no
consensus?
Your feedback much appreciated. Cheers, GeoOscar

[paul packer]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:23:57 +1000, "GeoOscar"
<gcmurphy@optusnot.com.au> wrote:

>Thankyou all respondents for your advice and warnings - which has been
>heeded. Am now following up the kitset speaker option suggestions, as well
>as considering the option to replace the disintegrating surround foams on my
>old AR38 woofers (one reason for needing new speakers). One issue I would
>like to raise is the issue of not being able to buy decent Hifi speakers for
>under $1000, as suggested by one respondent. Maybe I am getting past it,
>but I used to believe there was hi fi for the above-average music
>lover............................and then there was High End Audiophile
>quality for the purists with exceptional hearing/ a passion for the best/ or
>music afficionados. Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being over
>50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still believe
>that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
>shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc. Am I
>right or wrong, or is this one of those perennial debates where there is no
>consensus?
>Your feedback much appreciated. Cheers, GeoOscar

I too was somewhat stunned by this "$1000 speaker" comment. It's been
becoming obvious for somme time now that there is a coterie of
well-heeled enthusiasts on this NG who persistently discuss
multi-thousand-dollar amps, speakers and SACD players as if they were
the norm, as if we all had that kind of money to spend and if not, why
not?. Well, I'm here to assure them that some of us don't and are far
more interested in budget equipment and, more especially, classic
equipment that can be bought cheaply on Ebay. This may not fit into
their definition of "hi-fi", but it happens to be mine and, as it's
all I can afford, I'm sticking with it and continuing to post about
cheaper equipment even if no one cares to respond. So stick that in
your gold-rimmed pipes and smoke it.

[scalpel]

My 2 cents worth.

Obviously there is the potential to increase quality with increased price - but there is usually a decreasing return on cost. The best test is your ears.

Whilst I have a home theatre setup (Aaron speakers) that I am quite happy with (speakers approx $2000 - $3000 for the whole setup) I have seen some very impressive "package" units.

One in particular :

The logitech z 5500 5.1 THX package ($450 AUD from here (http://www.msy.com.au/Parts/non-PARTS.pdf) is a particularly good and compact system - in fact I was blown away by the quality for the cost. (of course you could buy them from Hardly Normal for another $200-250)

The reviews of this system seem to think the same.

J.
(I have no affilitation with the supplier or brand of speakers in any way)

[Mr. T]

"GeoOscar" <gcmurphy@optusnot.com.au> wrote in message
news:41c7ebab$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> Thankyou all respondents for your advice and warnings - which has been
> heeded. Am now following up the kitset speaker option suggestions, as
well
> as considering the option to replace the disintegrating surround foams on
my
> old AR38 woofers (one reason for needing new speakers). One issue I would
> like to raise is the issue of not being able to buy decent Hifi speakers
for
> under $1000, as suggested by one respondent. Maybe I am getting past it,
> but I used to believe there was hi fi for the above-average music
> lover............................and then there was High End Audiophile
> quality for the purists with exceptional hearing/ a passion for the best/
or
> music afficionados. Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being
over
> 50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still believe
> that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
> shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc. Am I
> right or wrong, or is this one of those perennial debates where there is
no
> consensus?

$1000 would buy a very good pair of speakers 25 years ago. That's what I
paid at the time. Considering the rate of inflation and increase in most
peoples wages, $1000 for a pair of speakers today, doesn't seem unreasonable
to me. Not that there are any for that I would buy myself. However there are
plenty of speakers that will make a noise for a lot less, if that's all
you're after.

BTW what percentage of your weeks wages did you pay for the AR38's at the
time? (Assuming you bought new and not at a garage sale)

MrT.

[Trevor Wilson]

"GeoOscar" <gcmurphy@optusnot.com.au> wrote in message
news:41c7ebab$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
> Thankyou all respondents for your advice and warnings - which has been
> heeded. Am now following up the kitset speaker option suggestions, as
> well as considering the option to replace the disintegrating surround
> foams on my old AR38 woofers (one reason for needing new speakers).

**That would be the cheapest option.

One issue I would
> like to raise is the issue of not being able to buy decent Hifi speakers
> for under $1000, as suggested by one respondent.

**Utter nonsense. Depending on which compromises you are prepared to allow,
you can achieve exceptional results in that price range.


Maybe I am getting past it,
> but I used to believe there was hi fi for the above-average music
> lover............................and then there was High End Audiophile
> quality for the purists with exceptional hearing/ a passion for the best/
> or music afficionados.

**That line is blurred. I own a pair of $1,200.00 speakers (now
discontinued) which, when used within their limitations, will rival *any*
speaker, at any price. Look and, most importantly, LISTEN and you can find a
bargain.

Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being over
> 50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still believe
> that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
> shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc.

**Second hand, yes. Clearance sales, very rarely. Speakers, like most
components, are worth what the market is prepared to pay. If a product is
discounted, then it is likely discounted because no one wants it. Did you
ever see a clearance sale on Porches? Ever wonder why? Desirable products
will hold their value.

Am I
> right or wrong, or is this one of those perennial debates where there is
> no consensus?

**There is never concensus, but there in common sense.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Michael K]

Are the logitech speakers only for a PC or are they also recommended for
home cinema?

Also, are they just speakers without an amp or is the Control Centre the
amp? If they r just speakers, can you hook it up too any receiver?



Thanks


"scalpel" <scalpel.1hm64g@no-mx.forums.eyo.com.au> wrote in message
news:scalpel.1hm64g@no-mx.forums.eyo.com.au...
>
> My 2 cents worth.
>
> Obviously there is the potential to increase quality with increased
> price - but there is usually a decreasing return on cost. The best test
> is your ears.
>
> Whilst I have a home theatre setup (Aaron speakers) that I am quite
> happy with (speakers approx $2000 - $3000 for the whole setup) I have
> seen some very impressive "package" units.
>
> One in particular :
>
> The logitech z 5500 5.1 THX package ($450 AUD from 'here'
> (http://www.msy.com.au/Parts/non-PARTS.pdf) is a particularly good and
> compact system - in fact I was blown away by the quality for the cost.
> (of course you could buy them from Hardly Normal for another $200-250)
>
> The reviews of this system seem to think the same.
>
> J.
> (I have no affilitation with the supplier or brand of speakers in any
> way)
>
>
> --
> scalpel

[scalpel]

[QUOTE=Michael K]Are the logitech speakers only for a PC or are they also recommended for
home cinema?

Also, are they just speakers without an amp or is the Control Centre the
amp? If they r just speakers, can you hook it up too any receiver?


The logitechs are driven by their own central amp.

Whilst they are typically sold as PC surround speakers, they perform very adequately as a budget home theatre (which is actually what they were doing at the house where I have just seen (heard) them). Much of the newer PC gaming audio is 5.1, so whether you are listening to DVD's or a computer game is a moot point.

Here (http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/z5500/index10.php) or here (http://www.thetechzone.com/?m=show&id=141) are reasonable reviews that give fairly detailed info.

[Francis Xavier Holden]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:48:19 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

> Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being over
>> 50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still believe
>> that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
>> shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc.
>
>**Second hand, yes. Clearance sales, very rarely. Speakers, like most
>components, are worth what the market is prepared to pay. If a product is
>discounted, then it is likely discounted because no one wants it. Did you
>ever see a clearance sale on Porches? Ever wonder why? Desirable products
>will hold their value.


Trevor

Very often expensive objects stay expensive even when second hand
because of the S/H market manipulation by vendors of the new product
and restricted consumer access to information or global markets.

E.G. A new car (HiFi) dealer has an interest in making sure second
hand products of their brands stay at an (often) artificially
supported high price in order to sustain the illusion that the new
price reflects "quality" and "cost plus" price setting rather than
"what the market will bear". See the DeBeers diamond scam method that
has been successfully worked for decades. Artificially induced
"shortages" are also another common scam.
...
Francis Xavier Holden

[Trevor Wilson]

"Francis Xavier Holden" <ehholden@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:9p7is09pg587s1tftn573ct0d5nepn762r@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:48:19 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being over
>>> 50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still
>>> believe
>>> that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
>>> shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc.
>>
>>**Second hand, yes. Clearance sales, very rarely. Speakers, like most
>>components, are worth what the market is prepared to pay. If a product is
>>discounted, then it is likely discounted because no one wants it. Did you
>>ever see a clearance sale on Porches? Ever wonder why? Desirable products
>>will hold their value.
>
>
> Trevor
>
> Very often expensive objects stay expensive even when second hand
> because of the S/H market manipulation by vendors of the new product
> and restricted consumer access to information or global markets.
>
> E.G. A new car (HiFi) dealer has an interest in making sure second
> hand products of their brands stay at an (often) artificially
> supported high price in order to sustain the illusion that the new
> price reflects "quality" and "cost plus" price setting rather than
> "what the market will bear". See the DeBeers diamond scam method that
> has been successfully worked for decades. Artificially induced
> "shortages" are also another common scam.

**All quite true. However, there are few true bargains in audio products. If
a product is being sold off cheap, it is because no one wants it.

[ANECDOTE] on:

All those people who purchased those "bargain priced" 'white van speakers'
will attest to the above truism.

One of my clients asked me to check his system, after he purchased a
'bargain' pair of well known speakers. I visited him and found that they
did, indeed, sound rather ordinary. I took one back to the workshop and ran
some measurements and found them to be very ordinary performers.

"But I paid $1,500.00 for them and the salesguy showed me the price-list
where they retailed for $2,500.00." He said. I asked if he bothered
listening to them and he said: "No, I bought them because they were cheap."

I hear the above words every day of the week.

[ANEDOTE]/

There is no such thing as a free lunch. And, unless a buyer is extremely
lucky, there are few real bargains to be had. Products are worth what people
are prepared to pay for them.

Think of it this way:

Is a $20,000.00 Metaxas amplifier, which is selling for $5,000.00, a
bargain?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Ayn Marx]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

>
> Is a $20,000.00 Metaxas amplifier, which is selling for $5,000.00, a
> bargain?
>
Sure is is you want to set fire to an enemy's house by slipping it into
their Xmas stocking luv.

[thornton melon]

I shopped around for quite a while before buying my speakers, It all comes down to personal preference. My nephew purchaced "Arrons" and to me they sounded like CRAP, The bass was too boomy, but he liked them. I bought "accusound" for around the same price, with smaller 5 inch drivers and I love them. My preference was for "Jamo" but cost a lot more.and did sound a little better,but Dollars count!!!. For home theatre my system sounds GREAT but for opera may lack a little, as for little computer satellite systems, save them for computer games as they are not in the same league as a real home theatre setup.

[Francis Xavier Holden]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:33:25 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>Think of it this way:
>
>Is a $20,000.00 Metaxas amplifier, which is selling for $5,000.00, a
>bargain?

Strawman. Bad example. Doesn't count.
...
Francis Xavier Holden

[scalpel]

"For home theatre my system sounds GREAT but for opera may lack a little, as for little computer satellite systems, save them for computer games as they are not in the same league as a real home theatre setup"[/QUOTE]


The only problems with this are (although I am basically agreeing with your gist)

1> Peoples ability to afford a system varies. What I would suggest for someone with a $500 budget will vary considerably from a $10000 (anecdote: one of the fellows that I work with keeps telling me about his wonderful HiFi setup - (it cost more than $200,000) - I think he is mad!, but then if I had that sort of money to spend, who knows - maybe I would like it too)

2> Peoples need varies considerably. I use my system for TV, DVD's and electronic music, hence a more boomy base is quite important to me. So I loooove my Aaron speakers, as do the other owners I know. I can't bear my fathers stereo setup (expensive B&W speakers) (loves classical CD + Vinyl), .... and so on. Opera, rock, Jazz, Classical, Pop, Movies, Games - the potential range of requirements is huge


3> A computer setup will now support 5.1 (or 7.1) digital sound, so I am not sure why it should necessarily be relegated to some sort of inferior quality. Particularly if you use if for HDTV or DVD's. This market is developing at a very rapid rate and the quality of what is available is astounding for the price and size. One really needs to listen to some decent Klipsch or Logitech speakers to understand.



Thats why there is such a large range available over such a number of price points.


Anyone who makes categoric statements that "you cant get good quality under $" is missing the point completely. The aim is to match as good a system as possible for the needs of the user and dollars they are prepared to spend.

J

My 4 cents worth

[Trevor Wilson]

"Francis Xavier Holden" <ehholden@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:qoqis055q34pdjqen575nb4phork7q1434@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:33:25 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Think of it this way:
>>
>>Is a $20,000.00 Metaxas amplifier, which is selling for $5,000.00, a
>>bargain?
>
> Strawman. Bad example. Doesn't count.

**Nope. IT is EXACTLY what I am speaking about. Retailers will discount
unpopular products, until someone buys them. People love (what they imagine
to be) bargains. They almost always believe that the original retail price
equates to the intrinsic quality of the product. Bose, for instance. When
Bose discount a (say) $5,000.00 system down to (say) $4,000.00, it still
represents crap value for money. Consumers, however, imagine they are
getting a bargain.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[SA000584]

I shopped around for quite a while before buying my speakers, It all comes down to personal preference. My nephew purchaced "Arrons" and to me they sounded like CRAP, The bass was too boomy, but he liked them. I bought "accusound" for around the same price, with smaller 5 inch drivers and I love them. My preference was for "Jamo" but cost a lot more.and did sound a little better,but Dollars count!!!. For home theatre my system sounds GREAT but for opera may lack a little, as for little computer satellite systems, save them for computer games as they are not in the same league as a real home theatre setup.


Which accusound speakers do you have ???

[bassett]

Have you considered "Peerless" speakers from Wes componants, they are now
selling Speaker kits.


"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:41c88c12@news.comindico.com.au...
>
> "GeoOscar" <gcmurphy@optusnot.com.au> wrote in message
> news:41c7ebab$0$4536$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au ...
>> Thankyou all respondents for your advice and warnings - which has been
>> heeded. Am now following up the kitset speaker option suggestions, as
>> well as considering the option to replace the disintegrating surround
>> foams on my old AR38 woofers (one reason for needing new speakers).
>
> **That would be the cheapest option.
>
> One issue I would
>> like to raise is the issue of not being able to buy decent Hifi speakers
>> for under $1000, as suggested by one respondent.
>
> **Utter nonsense. Depending on which compromises you are prepared to
> allow, you can achieve exceptional results in that price range.
>
>
> Maybe I am getting past it,
>> but I used to believe there was hi fi for the above-average music
>> lover............................and then there was High End Audiophile
>> quality for the purists with exceptional hearing/ a passion for the best/
>> or music afficionados.
>
> **That line is blurred. I own a pair of $1,200.00 speakers (now
> discontinued) which, when used within their limitations, will rival *any*
> speaker, at any price. Look and, most importantly, LISTEN and you can find
> a bargain.
>
> Clearly I see myself in the former camp, and being over
>> 50, with deteriorating hearing range, and limited budget, I still believe
>> that one can obtain "GOOD" hi fi speakers for several hundred dollars by
>> shopping around at clearance sales, or good second hand gear etc.
>
> **Second hand, yes. Clearance sales, very rarely. Speakers, like most
> components, are worth what the market is prepared to pay. If a product is
> discounted, then it is likely discounted because no one wants it. Did you
> ever see a clearance sale on Porches? Ever wonder why? Desirable products
> will hold their value.
>
> Am I
>> right or wrong, or is this one of those perennial debates where there is
>> no consensus?
>
> **There is never concensus, but there in common sense.
>
>
> --
> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au
>

[Francis Xavier Holden]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:55:23 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>Think of it this way:
>>>
>>>Is a $20,000.00 Metaxas amplifier, which is selling for $5,000.00, a
>>>bargain?
>>
>> Strawman. Bad example. Doesn't count.
>
>**Nope. IT is EXACTLY what I am speaking about. Retailers will discount
>unpopular products, until someone buys them. People love (what they imagine
>to be) bargains. They almost always believe that the original retail price
>equates to the intrinsic quality of the product. Bose, for instance. When
>Bose discount a (say) $5,000.00 system down to (say) $4,000.00, it still
>represents crap value for money. Consumers, however, imagine they are
>getting a bargain.


It was a kind of ironic comment on Metaxas stuff.

Yes in economic terms people also misunderstand SUNK COSTS.
[sunk costs are costs that have already been incurred and which
cannot be recovered to any significant degree]
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

They some how think that because they paid $x +5 for a product that
second hand it should be worth $x+4, when in reality it is worth
around $x+2.5 for most electrical goods.

Check out The Trading Post - most second hand items are at or around
new discount price. People will even justify a s/h price by saying "I
paid $x+++ for this object"

Its the same with Cash Convertors - 90% of the time the second hand
goods are dearer than the new discount price. Why on earth pay at or
near new price for second hand goods without a take back clause or
guarantee?

Getting back to Hi-(ish) Fi. The trouble with the HiFi market is that
it is very dispersed geographically and demographically, has elements
of luxury goods market like jewelry (eg expensive watches), the
market is easily manipulated by suppliers and there is imperfect (and
distorted) information about quality and performance price ratios.
...
Francis Xavier Holden

[Mr. T]

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:32spr5F3p5pg0U1@individual.net...
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. And, unless a buyer is extremely
> lucky, there are few real bargains to be had. Products are worth what
people
> are prepared to pay for them.

This is exactly why bargains are to be had. Most people don't know good from
bad, and rely on the "heard mentality" to value almost anything.

For example, If I have a block of land that cost $50,000 4 years ago, and
now sells for $250,000. What is it really "worth"?
If interests rates go up and the price drops, has it's "worth" come down, or
just the market price?
If I don't sell it, it's "worth" to me is *exactly* the same from one year
to the next. (unless the council rezones it or something)

You are simply confusing market price with actual worth to the owner. Two
totally different concepts.

MrT.

[Mr. T]

"Francis Xavier Holden" <ehholden@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:7uaks05d2pj7mebcbpngi85rmdmckleh5n@4ax.com...
> Its the same with Cash Convertors - 90% of the time the second hand
> goods are dearer than the new discount price.

Bad example, 80% of the time their prices are above the new RRP!

>Why on earth pay at or
> near new price for second hand goods without a take back clause or
> guarantee?

They rely on people NOT knowing the new price obviously.
They don't sell much from what I can see though. That's not their main
source of profit after all. Have a look at the interest rates for owners
wanting their goods back sometime!

MrT.

[thornton melon]

Which accusound speakers do you have ???
Hi SA000584
I have PHASE ZERO for fronts,DELTA centre,and DELTA 660 for rears,and a DELTA 200watt sub.
Cheers.
Thornton Melon