Apprentices [Archive] - Aussie Phorums

Ben Thomas

22-12-2004, 10:43 AM

Hi all,

Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices a
year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be electricians.

Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.

It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper for my
rental property.

Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they actually
any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product if bugger
all apprentices are building/maintaining them.

--
Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia
2001 manual 2.2l Holden Astra SRi - a real pleasure to drive;
Michelin Preceda - $250 each but last a lot longer than $200 tyres;
Alpine Type S speakers and amp, JVC MP3 CD playing head-unit.

Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
relate to the official business of my employer shall be understood as neither
given nor endorsed by it.

Michael C

22-12-2004, 11:33 AM

"Ben Thomas" <nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote in message
news:tubaqc.8el.ln@192.168.11.2...
> Hi all,
>
> Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices
> a year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be
> electricians.
>
> Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
> Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
>
> It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper
> for my rental property.
>
> Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they
> actually any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better
> product if bugger all apprentices are building/maintaining them.

That figure could be misleading because it is only one company. You need
wider figures to tell if it is true or not.

Michael

fritz

22-12-2004, 11:43 AM

Blame Howard.

Ben Thomas wrote ...
| Hi all,
|
| Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices a
| year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be electricians.
|
| Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
| apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
| Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
|
| It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper for my
| rental property.
|
| Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they actually
| any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product if bugger
| all apprentices are building/maintaining them.
|
|
| --
| Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia
| 2001 manual 2.2l Holden Astra SRi - a real pleasure to drive;
| Michelin Preceda - $250 each but last a lot longer than $200 tyres;
| Alpine Type S speakers and amp, JVC MP3 CD playing head-unit.
|
| Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
| relate to the official business of my employer shall be understood as neither
| given nor endorsed by it.

Mathew M.

22-12-2004, 12:43 PM

In article <cqafep$1vi$01$1@news.t-online.com>,
"fritz" <fritz@address.com> wrote:

> Blame Howard.

What's the go with that "New Apprenticeships" scheme of his?

>
> Ben Thomas wrote ...
> | Hi all,
> |
> | Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices a
> | year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be
> | electricians.
> |
> | Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> | apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
> | Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
> |
> | It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper
> | for my
> | rental property.
> |
> | Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they
> | actually
> | any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product if
> | bugger
> | all apprentices are building/maintaining them.
> |
> |
> | --
> | Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia
> | 2001 manual 2.2l Holden Astra SRi - a real pleasure to drive;
> | Michelin Preceda - $250 each but last a lot longer than $200 tyres;
> | Alpine Type S speakers and amp, JVC MP3 CD playing head-unit.
> |
> | Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
> | relate to the official business of my employer shall be understood as
> | neither
> | given nor endorsed by it.

David

22-12-2004, 12:53 PM

"Ben Thomas" <nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote in message
news:tubaqc.8el.ln@192.168.11.2...
> Hi all,
>
> Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices a
> year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be
electricians.
>
> Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
> Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
>

Outsourcing. Plant installation/maintenance is one example.

It is very common for new equipment to be ordered as 'turn-key' - that is fully
assembled and installed ready to run (just as you expect to receive a new car).
The sales contract will often include the full life-cycle (sale, delivery,
installation, all repairs and servicing for the life of the plant and
removal/disposal ) and paid as a yearly fee. The manufacturer thus shifts a
large portion of their fixed cost base off their books and onto someone else,
leaving the bottom line more protected.

The plant equipment is now more often than ever before built overseas, shipped
here in containers, assembled by 'specialist' staff brought in from overseas by
the plant maker and then subjected to final acceptance/commissioning by the
customer. Maintenance is then by the o/seas companys local office (perhaps
employing sub-contractors). If the plant breaks down there are penalty
provisions placed on the plant supplier, which are detailed in the contract.

From professional/personal experience, this is how it works in many other
industries so I assume the automotive industry won't be too different.

ant

22-12-2004, 01:04 PM

"Mathew M." <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:me-10F5AA.12361222122004@individual.net...
> In article <cqafep$1vi$01$1@news.t-online.com>,
> "fritz" <fritz@address.com> wrote:
>
>> Blame Howard.
>
> What's the go with that "New Apprenticeships" scheme of his?

New apprenticehips is just old apprenticeships, plus the newer Traineeships,
lumped under one programme. the idea being that they kind-of segment this
on/off the job training thing, withpeople passing competencies, rather than
serving a flat period of time. However, traditional trades apprenticeships
haven't changed a huge amount and it usually takes about 4 years to do one.
One big change that's been coming in for some years is the use of companies
to hire the apprentices, and then farm them out to employers for their on
the job portions. the employers don't have to commit to hire them for 4
years then, and they get paid for taking them and giving them their job
training. This *might* have something to do with Ford's new arrangements.

Nowadays also, there is a bigger expectation that people will pay for their
own training, and then come to the employer with a qualification.

ant

Toby Ponsenby

22-12-2004, 01:13 PM

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:40:03 GMT, Ben Thomas wrote:

> Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
> Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.

Interesting...
And is the all-found cost of these welders the same to the trailer
builder as 60 Australian welders?
Not a fuckin' hope.

These turds will keep babbling on about a shortage (of their own
making, incidentally) of trades workers as long as it continues to be
an excuse for out-sourcing.
The example you give is particularly blatant as it involves
importation of people.
Which tends to indicate a 'deal' in there somewhere, since it seems
getting the complete built up units imported was perhaps err,
difficult. Certainly that would have *cost* more than the current
solution.

--
Toby
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

Serialpest

22-12-2004, 01:23 PM

On 22/12/04 9:40 AM, in article tubaqc.8el.ln@192.168.11.2, "Ben Thomas"
<nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices a
> year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be
> electricians.
>
> Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
> Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
>
> It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper for
> my
> rental property.
>
> Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they
> actually
> any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product if
> bugger
> all apprentices are building/maintaining them.
>

The apprentice shortage is across the board. Why would anyone want to become
a tradesperson these days when they could get an easy no blame office job
earning the same money or more without having to deal with all the overkill
safety (read arse covering) bullshit the governments have introduced. Sure,
work your arse off, earn heaps and get to 50 and then your body is fucked.
Rewards are there for the taking. Not. Here's a better idea. Do an
apprenticeship, stay on for 10 years or so to get experience then get a job
as a sales rep. Worked for me. Then when the government realises there are
no tradespersons left (which won't be soon enough) they might actual do
something about the problem.

Noddy

22-12-2004, 02:13 PM

"Ben Thomas" <nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote in message
news:tubaqc.8el.ln@192.168.11.2...

> Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they
actually
> any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product if
bugger
> all apprentices are building/maintaining them.

Who said they were better? :)

You'll probably find it's not an unwillingness on the part of the companies
to train apprentices these days (although they can be quite a financial
burden for a good portion of their time), but rather a genuine lack of
interest in "hands on" trades by the current generation of school leavers.

And who can blame them?

Why train for four years to become an unappreciated mug who has to get
filthy dirty every day for a pittance wage when you can earn big dollars in
a "professional" IT field for doing bugger all in air conditioned comfort?

If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
trade.....

--
Regards,
Noddy.

Michael C

22-12-2004, 02:13 PM

"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:41c8e461$1@news.comindico.com.au...
> Why train for four years to become an unappreciated mug who has to get
> filthy dirty every day for a pittance wage when you can earn big dollars
> in
> a "professional" IT field for doing bugger all in air conditioned comfort?
>
> If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
> trade.....

Plumbers, electricians and builders do pretty well. Certainly a friend of
mine who is a sparky gets more than me in IT.

Michael

OzOne

22-12-2004, 02:53 PM

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:13:33 +1100, "Michael C" <mike@nospam.com>
scribbled thusly:

>"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
>news:41c8e461$1@news.comindico.com.au...
>> Why train for four years to become an unappreciated mug who has to get
>> filthy dirty every day for a pittance wage when you can earn big dollars
>> in
>> a "professional" IT field for doing bugger all in air conditioned comfort?
>>
>> If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
>> trade.....
>
>Plumbers, electricians and builders do pretty well. Certainly a friend of
>mine who is a sparky gets more than me in IT.
>
>Michael
>
Yeah, and owns 10s of thousands of dollars worth of tools, equipment
and plant, pays thru the nose for business insurance,registration,
TPP,etc etc, and works unpaid as a tax collector for GovCo while being
exposed to all manner of hazards both physical and financial.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

cyberhonky

22-12-2004, 02:55 PM

Michael C

22-12-2004, 03:23 PM

<OzOne> wrote in message news:5krhs0dgv4stfrf5sof12npks584spa2dd@4ax.com...
> Yeah, and owns 10s of thousands of dollars worth of tools, equipment
> and plant, pays thru the nose for business insurance,registration,
> TPP,etc etc, and works unpaid as a tax collector for GovCo while being
> exposed to all manner of hazards both physical and financial.

And works a shitload of hours but does do very well. Spends money like
nothing on several expensive commodore cup cars (dunno why, you can only
race one commodore at a time).

Michael

Noddy

22-12-2004, 04:23 PM

"Michael C" <mike@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:32s6ssF3nue9mU1@individual.net...

> Plumbers, electricians and builders do pretty well. Certainly a friend of
> mine who is a sparky gets more than me in IT.

Working for *themselves* as contractors, or working for wages?

There's a huge difference.....

D Walford

22-12-2004, 05:03 PM

Ben Thomas wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200 apprentices a
> year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be electricians.
>
> Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise that
> Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
>
> It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper for my
> rental property.
>
> Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they actually
> any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product if bugger
> all apprentices are building/maintaining them.
>

Apprentices or tradesmen don't build cars at Ford or anywhere else and
they never have.
Its not surprising that they no longer train apprentices, Ford and a lot
of other companies are having lots of trouble getting anyone to work for
$6.00 an hour.
Production line workers get paid a hell of a lot better than apprentices
and a lot better than many tradesmen, the people who used to unload my
truck at Toyota were getting paid approx $23.00 ph (dayshift).

Daryl

D Walford

22-12-2004, 05:13 PM

Noddy wrote:
>

> If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
> trade.....
>

A trade is OK but not in the automotive field.
My son is a third year app. electrician and he is earning very good
money.

Daryl

atec

22-12-2004, 05:23 PM

D Walford wrote:
>
> Noddy wrote:
> >
>
> > If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
> > trade.....
> >
>
> A trade is OK but not in the automotive field.
> My son is a third year app. electrician and he is earning very good
> money.
>
> Daryl
I have just fired an apprentice wannabe .... 17 years old taking home
$500.00 a week but he seemed to think bearing a responsibility of care
was a problem , now I have to rectify 3 weeks of fuckups and not doing
as asked.. Ill not take another apprentice and truthfully I don't
understand his actions when in a couple of years at no more than 21 or
22 he would have been earning 2k a week..

Clockmeister

22-12-2004, 05:33 PM

"Serialpest" <tyresmoke@magna.com> wrote in message
news:BDEF15B4.23789%tyresmoke@magna.com...
> On 22/12/04 9:40 AM, in article tubaqc.8el.ln@192.168.11.2, "Ben Thomas"
> <nosp@m.thanks.mate> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Read in the paper yesterday that Ford used to train about 200
apprentices a
> > year. They're only going to train 12 next year and 10 of them will be
> > electricians.
> >
> > Ford aren't unique. Apparently a lot of big companies aren't training
> > apprentices at anywhere near the level they used to. It's no surprise
that
> > Dandenong truck trailer builder had to hire 60 welders from China.
> >
> > It's probably related that there's about a 3 month wait for a landscaper
for
> > my
> > rental property.
> >
> > Could that explain why Ford's aren't bad like they used to be? Are they
> > actually
> > any better these days? I would expect them to be a much better product
if
> > bugger
> > all apprentices are building/maintaining them.
> >
>
> The apprentice shortage is across the board. Why would anyone want to
become
> a tradesperson these days when they could get an easy no blame office job
> earning the same money or more without having to deal with all the
overkill
> safety (read arse covering) bullshit the governments have introduced.
Sure,
> work your arse off, earn heaps and get to 50 and then your body is fucked.
> Rewards are there for the taking. Not. Here's a better idea. Do an
> apprenticeship, stay on for 10 years or so to get experience then get a
job
> as a sales rep. Worked for me. Then when the government realises there are
> no tradespersons left (which won't be soon enough) they might actual do
> something about the problem.

You are right on the mark.

Clockmeister

22-12-2004, 05:33 PM

"atec" <"atec77(away)"@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41C912CE.85C15A6@hotmail.com...
>
>
> D Walford wrote:
> >
> > Noddy wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
> > > trade.....
> > >
> >
> > A trade is OK but not in the automotive field.
> > My son is a third year app. electrician and he is earning very good
> > money.
> >
> > Daryl
> I have just fired an apprentice wannabe .... 17 years old taking home
> $500.00 a week but he seemed to think bearing a responsibility of care
> was a problem , now I have to rectify 3 weeks of fuckups and not doing
> as asked.. Ill not take another apprentice and truthfully I don't
> understand his actions when in a couple of years at no more than 21 or
> 22 he would have been earning 2k a week..

Working for you I can't blame him for bailing ;-)

D Walford

22-12-2004, 05:33 PM

atec wrote:
>
> D Walford wrote:
> >
> > Noddy wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > If I had my time over again, there's no way I would have gone into a
> > > trade.....
> > >
> >
> > A trade is OK but not in the automotive field.
> > My son is a third year app. electrician and he is earning very good
> > money.
> >
> > Daryl
> I have just fired an apprentice wannabe .... 17 years old taking home
> $500.00 a week but he seemed to think bearing a responsibility of care
> was a problem , now I have to rectify 3 weeks of fuckups and not doing
> as asked.. Ill not take another apprentice and truthfully I don't
> understand his actions when in a couple of years at no more than 21 or
> 22 he would have been earning 2k a week..

That is another part of the problem, the builder that employed my mates
son fired many apprentices for turning up to work pissed or under the
influence of drugs and thats only if they bothered to show up at all.

Daryl