Athol - Jeremy - others interested - 'Slow Point' Pics.

[Albm&ctd]

World class 'slow point' and barrier. This is the Qld Gold Coasts
answer to 'traffic calming' and a barrier to protect a preschool.
This is a follow up to the 'a car just hit a tree outside my place'
where I stated that the 'slow point' shown on our website was the site
of many accidents. Anyway the pics should convince you that these
things damage vehicles and the barrier... defies description so
therefore I have put a couple of the pics we took today into a zip
file. Less than 1.3mb.
Download at:
http://home.connexus.net.au/~linford/slowpoint.zip

I could burn the whole lot of the pics to CD and go into competition
with spooky but will probably just do one to send to QT. I will of
course keep yuz informed of what they say.
I will contact the Council too and find out how many times they have
replaced signs and painted the bloody ridiculous thing to cover up
tyre marks. Looks like it needs doing again.

Al

I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"Albm&ctd" <

> http://home.connexus.net.au/~linford/slowpoint.zip

JPG 2 Clearly shows a need for replacement barrier as a matter of urgency,
the existing guardrail is below standard, and importantly, as your other
pics show substantially weakened, the vertical uprights are spaced so
imparting a low speed impact design, with exception to the end supports, the
remainder are to be steel. The installation also lacks delineation markers
(reflectoring etc). The bullnose, rather termination, is not safe (does not
exist) and should also show orange surface and a black stripe.

The relevant road authority IS legally liable for damages (Certainly in NSW
with reference to the CUBBON case) if it can be shown the barrier is not to
performance. The pictures, as evidence, are clear on this.

What needs to be done is for the pictures AND correspondence to be sent
requesting replacement barrier, be that guardrail or wire rope variety. The
latter should it be chosen I'd suggest be 4-Rope as opposed to the 3-Rope
design which for this low-speed environment would normally be considered. I
say this owing the nature of the property it seeks to protect and the
reality of a downhill run.

A truck would likely flatten guardrail, but wire rope would likely arrest
the vehicle at the delineation shown.

The traffic calming measures are intended to reduce speed on approach to the
pre-school, but too have issues.

Speak later further . . .

R,
JP

[Peter Wyzl]

"Mot Adv-NSW" <mot.adv@gotalk.net.au> wrote in message
news:34f84hF49qbkgU1@individual.net...
:
: "Albm&ctd" <
:
: > http://home.connexus.net.au/~linford/slowpoint.zip
:
: JPG 2 Clearly shows a need for replacement barrier as a matter of urgency,
: the existing guardrail is below standard, and importantly, as your other
: pics show substantially weakened, the vertical uprights are spaced so
: imparting a low speed impact design, with exception to the end supports,
the
: remainder are to be steel. The installation also lacks delineation
markers
: (reflectoring etc). The bullnose, rather termination, is not safe (does
not
: exist) and should also show orange surface and a black stripe.
:
: The relevant road authority IS legally liable for damages (Certainly in
NSW
: with reference to the CUBBON case) if it can be shown the barrier is not
to
: performance. The pictures, as evidence, are clear on this.
:
: What needs to be done is for the pictures AND correspondence to be sent
: requesting replacement barrier, be that guardrail or wire rope variety.
The
: latter should it be chosen I'd suggest be 4-Rope as opposed to the 3-Rope
: design which for this low-speed environment would normally be considered.
I
: say this owing the nature of the property it seeks to protect and the
: reality of a downhill run.
:
: A truck would likely flatten guardrail, but wire rope would likely arrest
: the vehicle at the delineation shown.

WRB would likely kill any motorcyclist... Recommending them will not make
you popular.

P
--
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516341671
print "Just another Perl Hacker";

[Graham W]

Peter Wyzl wrote:
> WRB would likely kill any motorcyclist... Recommending them will not make
> you popular.

Crossposting and trolling won't make you popular either.

[Rainbow Warrior]

"Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message
news:34f05rF4aevh8U4@individual.net...
>
> World class 'slow point' and barrier. This is the Qld Gold Coasts
> answer to 'traffic calming' and a barrier to protect a preschool.
> This is a follow up to the 'a car just hit a tree outside my place'
> where I stated that the 'slow point' shown on our website was the site
> of many accidents. Anyway the pics should convince you that these
> things damage vehicles and the barrier... defies description so
> therefore I have put a couple of the pics we took today into a zip
> file. Less than 1.3mb.

Just proves how many drive stupidly fast for conditions or can't drive for
shit.

[Peter Wyzl]

"Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote in message
news:34f9ssF4a8sl8U1@individual.net...
: Peter Wyzl wrote:
: > WRB would likely kill any motorcyclist... Recommending them will not
make
: > you popular.
:
: Crossposting and trolling won't make you popular either.

I'm not about being popular. I cross posted to two forums relevant to the
point I made. motorcyclists don't liek WRB compared to guardrails, and
members of aus.moto would take an interest in 'roadside furniture'
recommendations.

Cross Posting is not a universally bad thing you know...

The trolling accusation can be ignored.

P
--
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516341671
print "Just another Perl Hacker";

[Graham W]

Peter Wyzl wrote:
> I'm not about being popular. I cross posted to two forums relevant to the
> point I made. motorcyclists don't liek WRB compared to guardrails,

Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're a
damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road and
cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me who
cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the other way.

> Cross Posting is not a universally bad thing you know...

Cross posting, with no indication you've done so, in a deliberate
attempt to start a flamewar is simply trolling.

> The trolling accusation can be ignored.

But the reality is that it won't be ignored, and you'll probably get the
flame war you're looking for.

[Albm&ctd]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:09:22 +1000, "Rainbow Warrior"
<sleek@sbs.com.fr> wrote:

>"Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message
>news:34f05rF4aevh8U4@individual.net...
>>
>> World class 'slow point' and barrier. This is the Qld Gold Coasts
>> answer to 'traffic calming' and a barrier to protect a preschool.
>> This is a follow up to the 'a car just hit a tree outside my place'
>> where I stated that the 'slow point' shown on our website was the site
>> of many accidents. Anyway the pics should convince you that these
>> things damage vehicles and the barrier... defies description so
>> therefore I have put a couple of the pics we took today into a zip
>> file. Less than 1.3mb.
>
>Just proves how many drive stupidly fast for conditions or can't drive for
>shit.
>
It's not so simple, the 'slow point' is around a corner with very
little warning. If you were following a pantec or other vehicle down
this hill which obscured your vision, even a perfectionist bowler type
like yourself could fail to notice the silling island on the left.
Probably wonder why the vehicle in front is going to the right, maybe
think it was going to turn right at the street and as normal go to the
left only to be met by the island. The island on the left is the one
with the deep gouges. The situation would be worse at night and in the
rain because there are fuck all reflectors on the thing. As I
mentioned in another thread about these devices, I was a passenger
which noticed the island when the drivers focus was on a vehicle
approaching from the right. Anyway, it's all going to QT to see what
they come up with, after all they are the ones paid to come up with
road safety solutions whereas the bastards don't even send me a carton
of piss at Christmas for pointing out obvious problems and as you can
see the barrier needs replacement with a modern unit and if I had
anything to do with it, then I would suggest an exta rail at the
bottom of barriers to avoid motorcyclists getting their limbs torn off
by the posts but I have no say in the construction of barriers. Yo
uwill also notice that the keep left sign has it cutting edge facing
traffic making ineffective as a sign and very dangerous to a
motorcycle. Another point is, if you had to avoid a vehicle that came
out on your right, the only option would be to go over the island on
the left to avoid them. Please remember, I don't get paid for this and
am looking for constructive commment, solutions. At least I've had one
so far, not yours. Well I'm not going to rearead that so I'm sending
it now, warts and all.

Al

I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[feral]

Albm&ctd wrote:

> so I'm sending it now, warts and all.

And you say my frog sucks. :-)

--

Take Care
Feral

[athol]

Graham W <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote:
> Peter Wyzl wrote:

>> I'm not about being popular. I cross posted to two forums relevant to the
>> point I made. motorcyclists don't liek WRB compared to guardrails,

Yes, we've been through all the stuff about the wild claims from
motorcyclists who have just /looked/ at WRB and think that it's
dangerous without any factal input. Google previous threads
instead of starting the same arguement all over again.

> Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're a
> damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road and
> cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me who
> cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
> where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the other way.

That's on top of the fact that Briefen at least have carried out
testing and designed their barriers to minimise the risk of
injury to motorcyclists. Dunno about the other brand(s).

>> Cross Posting is not a universally bad thing you know...

Cross posting to relevant groups and suitably indicated is a
good thing. Cross posting to start a flame war is not.

> Cross posting, with no indication you've done so, in a deliberate
> attempt to start a flamewar is simply trolling.

In this case, it made the posts disappear for me, since I have
a permanent killfile entry for crossposts to aus.moto because
they are consistently flamewars...

>> The trolling accusation can be ignored.

> But the reality is that it won't be ignored, and you'll probably get the
> flame war you're looking for.

And I won't see any of the posts except where the crosspost is
dropped. Whew. :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"Albm&ctd" <

I don't get paid for this and
> am looking for constructive commment, solutions. At least I've had one
> so far, not yours. Well I'm not going to rearead that so I'm sending
> it now, warts and all.

Let us know how you go Al at having replacement made. Have the Centre help
in writing if necessary, show them the issue and promote the concept on the
basis of Occupational Health and Safety.

JP



> Al
>
> I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone.
> http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[athol]

Mot Adv-NSW <mot.adv@gotalk.net.au> wrote:
> "Albm&ctd" <

>> I don't get paid for this and
>> am looking for constructive commment, solutions. At least I've had one
>> so far, not yours. Well I'm not going to rearead that so I'm sending
>> it now, warts and all.

> Let us know how you go Al at having replacement made. Have the Centre help
> in writing if necessary, show them the issue and promote the concept on the
> basis of Occupational Health and Safety.

Give the childcare centre copies of prior correspondence with roads
authority and explain that the deliberate deviation of traffic into the
intersection actually increases the risk of vehicles crashing into
their centre.

Also might be worth telling them that there was a high court decision
that means that anybody affected by road defects can sue the authority
responsible for the road... The childcare centre could take legal
action if they wanted to!

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Peter Wyzl]

"Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote in message
news:34fe1eF4bnvjnU1@individual.net...
: Peter Wyzl wrote:
: > I'm not about being popular. I cross posted to two forums relevant to
the
: > point I made. motorcyclists don't liek WRB compared to guardrails,
:
: Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're a
: damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road and
: cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me who
: cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
: where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the other
way.

Perhaps you would care to explain how a WRB on the side of the road achieves
that? In my (also) many years of experience, the motorcycle accidents I
have seen and attended, the absence of any barrier was generally fortuitous.
There are incidents where the absence of any barrier has been a problem.
The question of how to adequately protect the children in the playground
should be answered with due regard to the safety of all road users. Guaard
rails are generally safer for the occupants of whatever vehicle strikes
them. I do know of at least one incident where a rider died after striking
a WRB where it is believed that the rider would have survived striking a
guard rail.

: > Cross Posting is not a universally bad thing you know...
:
: Cross posting, with no indication you've done so, in a deliberate
: attempt to start a flamewar is simply trolling.

The failure to indicate in the body is my bad. Apologies to those offended
by same. I was not 'deliberately attempting to start a flame war'. Whether
you believe that or not is you choice.

: > The trolling accusation can be ignored.
:
: But the reality is that it won't be ignored, and you'll probably get the
: flame war you're looking for.

Whether a flame war starts or not is immaterial. I was not seeking to
start one. Merely ensuring that another group of people who have an active
interest in the matter are aware of the discussion.

P
--
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516341671
print "Just another Perl Hacker";

[Rainbow Warrior]

"Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message
news:34ggpqF4bht45U1@individual.net...
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:09:22 +1000, "Rainbow Warrior"
> <sleek@sbs.com.fr> wrote:
>
> >"Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message
> >news:34f05rF4aevh8U4@individual.net...
> >>
> >> World class 'slow point' and barrier. This is the Qld Gold Coasts
> >> answer to 'traffic calming' and a barrier to protect a preschool.
> >> This is a follow up to the 'a car just hit a tree outside my place'
> >> where I stated that the 'slow point' shown on our website was the site
> >> of many accidents. Anyway the pics should convince you that these
> >> things damage vehicles and the barrier... defies description so
> >> therefore I have put a couple of the pics we took today into a zip
> >> file. Less than 1.3mb.
> >
> >Just proves how many drive stupidly fast for conditions or can't drive
for
> >shit.
> >
> It's not so simple, the 'slow point' is around a corner with very
> little warning. If you were following a pantec or other vehicle down
> this hill which obscured your vision, even a perfectionist bowler type
> like yourself could fail to notice the silling island on the left.

Some possibilities, you're either following the Pantach too closely, your
car handles worse than a pantech, or the Pantech driver is bloody good.

> Probably wonder why the vehicle in front is going to the right, maybe
> think it was going to turn right at the street and as normal go to the
> left only to be met by the island. The island on the left is the one
> with the deep gouges. The situation would be worse at night and in the
> rain because there are fuck all reflectors on the thing. As I
> mentioned in another thread about these devices, I was a passenger
> which noticed the island when the drivers focus was on a vehicle
> approaching from the right. Anyway, it's all going to QT to see what
> they come up with, after all they are the ones paid to come up with
> road safety solutions whereas the bastards don't even send me a carton
> of piss at Christmas for pointing out obvious problems and as you can
> see the barrier needs replacement with a modern unit and if I had
> anything to do with it, then I would suggest an exta rail at the
> bottom of barriers to avoid motorcyclists getting their limbs torn off
> by the posts but I have no say in the construction of barriers. Yo
> uwill also notice that the keep left sign has it cutting edge facing
> traffic making ineffective as a sign and very dangerous to a
> motorcycle. Another point is, if you had to avoid a vehicle that came
> out on your right, the only option would be to go over the island on
> the left to avoid them. Please remember, I don't get paid for this and
> am looking for constructive commment, solutions. At least I've had one
> so far, not yours. Well I'm not going to rearead that so I'm sending
> it now, warts and all.
>
> Al
>
> I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone.
> http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[Albm&ctd]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:04:38 +1000, "Rainbow Warrior"
<sleek@sbs.com.fr> wrote:

>Some possibilities, you're either following the Pantach too closely, your
>car handles worse than a pantech, or the Pantech driver is bloody good.
>
Or you don't know the road, ya dingbat :-)

Al

I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[Albm&ctd]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:59:30 GMT, "Peter Wyzl" <wyzelli@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>"Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote in message
>news:34fe1eF4bnvjnU1@individual.net...
>: Peter Wyzl wrote:
>: > I'm not about being popular. I cross posted to two forums relevant to
>the
>: > point I made. motorcyclists don't liek WRB compared to guardrails,
>:
>: Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're a
>: damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road and
>: cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me who
>: cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
>: where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the other
>way.
>
>Perhaps you would care to explain how a WRB on the side of the road achieves
>that? In my (also) many years of experience, the motorcycle accidents I
>have seen and attended, the absence of any barrier was generally fortuitous.
>There are incidents where the absence of any barrier has been a problem.
>The question of how to adequately protect the children in the playground
>should be answered with due regard to the safety of all road users. Guaard
>rails are generally safer for the occupants of whatever vehicle strikes
>them. I do know of at least one incident where a rider died after striking
>a WRB where it is believed that the rider would have survived striking a
>guard rail.
>
>: > Cross Posting is not a universally bad thing you know...
>:
>: Cross posting, with no indication you've done so, in a deliberate
>: attempt to start a flamewar is simply trolling.
>
>The failure to indicate in the body is my bad. Apologies to those offended
>by same. I was not 'deliberately attempting to start a flame war'. Whether
>you believe that or not is you choice.
>
>: > The trolling accusation can be ignored.
>:
>: But the reality is that it won't be ignored, and you'll probably get the
>: flame war you're looking for.
>
>Whether a flame war starts or not is immaterial. I was not seeking to
>start one. Merely ensuring that another group of people who have an active
>interest in the matter are aware of the discussion.
>
Not forgetting I ride a bike too and don't fall off in my olde age but
anyone who did fall would not benefit from a barrier, sure, but there
are other concerns like a car in the playground. I'm not in favour of
WRBs but the single barrier is bad also and quite possibly worse with
the support posts exposed. I'd rather see a barrier that covered those
posts, ie: the barrier has two rails but that costs more and we all
know what the stingy road safety mob will put up, a normal single rail
barrier but it's got to be an improvement on what's there presently.

Al

I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"Peter Wyzl" <

motorcyclists don't liek WRB compared to guardrails,

> : Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're a
> : damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road and
> : cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me who
> : cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
> : where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the other
> way.

> Perhaps you would care to explain how a WRB on the side of the road
> achieves
> that?

By preventing the rider and bike from crossing into the path of oncoming
vehicles or trees on the side of the road:-)



In my (also) many years of experience, the motorcycle accidents I
> have seen and attended, the absence of any barrier was generally
> fortuitous.

I agree.


> There are incidents where the absence of any barrier has been a problem.

I agree with this too


> The question of how to adequately protect the children in the playground
> should be answered with due regard to the safety of all road users.


Guaard
> rails are generally safer for the occupants of whatever vehicle strikes
> them.

We shall do a per capita, per kilometre installed, study on this and
'compare' havinfg regard to 'all road users' and those whom the barrier
seeks to protect. This will cost $4million over 3 years.



I do know of at least one incident where a rider died after striking
> a WRB where it is believed that the rider would have survived striking a
> guard rail.

I know of at least 1,246 incidents where a rider and driver would have
survived had he not crashed in the first instance.



> Whether a flame war starts or not is immaterial. I was not seeking to
> start one. Merely ensuring that another group of people who have an active
> interest in the matter are aware of the discussion.

Done to death, a growing number of US States (7) ban the use of guardrail in
favour of wire-rope Brifen brand.

This is bad those cables are known to come alive at night and attack people
sleeping in their own beds, bondage I believe.


> print "Just another Perl Hacker";

[Rainbow Warrior]

"Albm&ctd" <alb_mandctdNOWMD@connexus.net.au> wrote in message
news:34hnf0F4be2liU4@individual.net...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:04:38 +1000, "Rainbow Warrior"
> <sleek@sbs.com.fr> wrote:
>
> >Some possibilities, you're either following the Pantach too closely, your
> >car handles worse than a pantech, or the Pantech driver is bloody good.
> >
> Or you don't know the road, ya dingbat :-)
>
> Al

See option 1 :-)

[Graham W]

> "Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote:
> : Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're a
> : damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road and
> : cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me who
> : cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
> : where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the other
> way.

Peter Wyzl wrote:
> Perhaps you would care to explain how a WRB on the side of the road achieves
> that?

Because most vehicle crossover incidents involve one vehicle crossing
over and several more vehicles coming the other way.

So for each vehicle which is prevented from crossing over by the wire
rope barrier, several more oncoming vehicles are saved.

I reason that the improvement in my safety for the several is greater
than the reduction in my safety (if there is any) for when it's me
crossing over, especially since on a bike, if the barrier wasn't there,
the oncoming traffic would snot me anyway.

[Peter Wyzl]

"Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote in message
news:34i51uF474r25U1@individual.net...
:> "Graham W" <zebedee@alphalink.commercial.au> wrote:
: > : Speaking as a motorcyclist with many years experience, I think they're
a
: > : damn good thing if they keep oncoming traffic from crossing the road
and
: > : cleaning up me and half a dozen other people. For each time it's me
who
: > : cocks up and ends up in the barrier, there are likely to be several
: > : where I'm one of quite a few people saved from someone coming the
other
: > way.
:
: Peter Wyzl wrote:
: > Perhaps you would care to explain how a WRB on the side of the road
achieves
: > that?
:
: Because most vehicle crossover incidents involve one vehicle crossing
: over and several more vehicles coming the other way.
:
: So for each vehicle which is prevented from crossing over by the wire
: rope barrier, several more oncoming vehicles are saved.
:
: I reason that the improvement in my safety for the several is greater
: than the reduction in my safety (if there is any) for when it's me
: crossing over, especially since on a bike, if the barrier wasn't there,
: the oncoming traffic would snot me anyway.

You miss the point. This barrier is on the _side_ of the road. It can have
no effect on _crossover_ traffic. Your point may be relevant to a median
barrier, but not to _this_ barrier. You are talking about a barrier in the
centre of the road.

P
--
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516341671
print "Just another Perl Hacker";