death spurs new call for bullbar ban

[sheik yerbouti]

Dead boy's family launches bullbar campaign
January 11, 2005 - 1:30PM
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Dead-boys-family-launches-bullbar-campaign/2005/01/11/1105206095619.html

The family of a Melbourne boy killed by a four-wheel-drive has begun a
campaign to ban deadly bullbars from vehicles in urban areas.

Shahid Hajher, seven, died in his sister's arms in the NSW south coast
town of Kiama on January 5 after he was hit by a four-wheel-drive
fitted with a bullbar.

His cousin, Farid Rawan, has become a political lobbyist and is
calling for a ban on bullbars on vehicles in NSW's urban areas.

Mr Rawan, a Sydney computer engineer, hoped Shahid's death would not
be in vain.

He yesterday launched an email petition urging people to support a ban
on bullbars on urban vehicles.

It was "ridiculous" for urban motorists to fit their cars with
bullbars, Mr Rawan said.

"I'm sure in the country there's a big argument for them to prevent
kangaroos coming through the windscreen," he said.

"I don't know how often that happens but in the city there's just no
reason to have a bullbar."

Mr Rawan said his cousin was a gentle and brilliantly talented child.

"Shahid was one of the most innocent and sweetest kids I have ever
met," he said.

"If he was in the house for a day it would light the whole house up."

The Pedestrian Council of Australia has backed Mr Rawan's campaign.

Council chairman Harold Scruby said bullbars were a factor in up to 12
per cent of pedestrian deaths, but police and the Roads and Traffic
Authority (RTA) were not enforcing standards regarding unsafe
bullbars.

But motorists would gain demerit points for unsafe bullbars from March
1, he said.

Lake Illawarra police supervisor Sergeant Bryan Rugg said today police
were unlikely to press charges against the driver of the
four-wheel-drive that hit Shahid.

Comment was being sought from the office of NSW Police Minister John
Watkins and the RTA.

- AAP

[Objectionable Fred]

"sheik yerbouti" <delbo21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5mi6u0pkgq35bkg7fub64ppcr78htjlal2@4ax.com...
> Dead boy's family launches bullbar campaign
> January 11, 2005 - 1:30PM
>
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Dead-boys-family-launches-bullbar-cam
paign/2005/01/11/1105206095619.html
>
> The family of a Melbourne boy killed by a four-wheel-drive has begun a
> campaign to ban deadly bullbars from vehicles in urban areas.
>
> Shahid Hajher, seven, died in his sister's arms in the NSW south coast
> town of Kiama on January 5 after he was hit by a four-wheel-drive
> fitted with a bullbar.
>
> His cousin, Farid Rawan, has become a political lobbyist and is
> calling for a ban on bullbars on vehicles in NSW's urban areas.
>
> Mr Rawan, a Sydney computer engineer, hoped Shahid's death would not
> be in vain.
>
> He yesterday launched an email petition urging people to support a ban
> on bullbars on urban vehicles.
>
> It was "ridiculous" for urban motorists to fit their cars with
> bullbars, Mr Rawan said.
>
> "I'm sure in the country there's a big argument for them to prevent
> kangaroos coming through the windscreen," he said.
>
> "I don't know how often that happens but in the city there's just no
> reason to have a bullbar."
>
> Mr Rawan said his cousin was a gentle and brilliantly talented child.
>
> "Shahid was one of the most innocent and sweetest kids I have ever
> met," he said.
>
> "If he was in the house for a day it would light the whole house up."
>
> The Pedestrian Council of Australia has backed Mr Rawan's campaign.
>
> Council chairman Harold Scruby said bullbars were a factor in up to 12
> per cent of pedestrian deaths, but police and the Roads and Traffic
> Authority (RTA) were not enforcing standards regarding unsafe
> bullbars.
>
> But motorists would gain demerit points for unsafe bullbars from March
> 1, he said.
>
> Lake Illawarra police supervisor Sergeant Bryan Rugg said today police
> were unlikely to press charges against the driver of the
> four-wheel-drive that hit Shahid.
>
> Comment was being sought from the office of NSW Police Minister John
> Watkins and the RTA.
>
> - AAP


I'd test the bullbar on Harold Scruby first.

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"sheik yerbouti" <delbo21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5mi6u0pkgq35bkg7fub64ppcr78htjlal2@4ax.com...
> Dead boy's family launches bullbar campaign
> January 11, 2005 - 1:30PM
> http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Dead-boys-family-launches-bullbar-campaign/2005/01/11/1105206095619.html
>
> The family of a Melbourne boy killed by a four-wheel-drive has begun a
> campaign to ban deadly bullbars from vehicles in urban areas.

The family would be better advised to keep their kids off the road.

Jeremy H. Pritchard
Motorist's Advocate-NSW

[Diesel Damo]

> Mr Rawan said his cousin was a gentle and
> brilliantly talented child.
>
> "Shahid was one of the most innocent and
> sweetest kids I have ever met," he said.
>
> "If he was in the house for a day it would light
> the whole house up."

Yeah, let's introduce emotion into the argument - and what better way
to do it than via a little innocent child. That way anyone who opposes
the idea can be accused of being callous and incaring. After all, we
can't waste six valuable lines describing the details of what actually
happened, now can we?

[sheik yerbouti]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:06:55 +1100, "Mot Adv-NSW"
<mot.adv@gotalk.net.au> wrote:

>
>The family would be better advised to keep their kids off the road.
>
you can say the same thing about seat belts "just tell them not to
drive stupid enough to crash"

[sheik yerbouti]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:37 +1100, "Objectionable Fred"
<boring@wowsernet.com.au> wrote:


>I'd test the bullbar on Harold Scruby first.
>
scruby may be a poster child for abortion but on one point it's hard
to argue - why do urban 4WDs need bullbars? it's a proven fact they
can kill.

i'm not a road safety nanny but logic says you just don't need the
stupid things.

[sheik yerbouti]

On 10 Jan 2005 20:11:05 -0800, "Diesel Damo" <Diesel_4WD@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:

>
>Yeah, let's introduce emotion into the argument - and what better way
>to do it than via a little innocent child. That way anyone who opposes
>the idea can be accused of being callous and incaring. After all, we
>can't waste six valuable lines describing the details of what actually
>happened, now can we?

if you're being unemotive the solution would be to remove all bullbars
as they're useless.

emotion goes both ways, you just have to open both eyes.

[athol]

sheik yerbouti <delbo21@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "If he was in the house for a day it would light the whole house up."

That's radioactivity, that is. :-p

> Council chairman Harold Scruby said bullbars were a factor in up to 12
> per cent of pedestrian deaths,

A huge 12%. And that's only a _factor_.

IOW, 12% of pedestrian fatalities involve vehicles fitted with
bullbars, regardless of whether the bullbar would have worsened
the level of injury and whether its absence would have avoided
the crash in the first place...

What percentage of the total (multiplier) vehicle km travelled
is vehicles fitted with bullbars? We can't really use %age of
vehicles fitted with bullbars because it isn't directle
proportional to risk. As meaningless as measuring fatalities
in proportion to population or vehicles...

If the risk exposure %age fitted with bullbars exceeds 12%,
logic would indicate that fitting more bullbars would make the
roads safer. :-p

> but police and the Roads and Traffic
> Authority (RTA) were not enforcing standards regarding unsafe
> bullbars.

That's because the IVRs aren't trained well enough to know
what's legal and what's not. Police don't appear to get any
specific training in this area, and some can't read RTA rules
no matter how simply written.

> But motorists would gain demerit points for unsafe bullbars from March
> 1, he said.

Yay. Sharp edges, forward projections, etc..

Most will be completely unaffected.

> Lake Illawarra police supervisor Sergeant Bryan Rugg said today police
> were unlikely to press charges against the driver of the
> four-wheel-drive that hit Shahid.

IOW, the driver was not at fault. Scruby seems to be
overlooking that, as is cousin zealot.

> Comment was being sought from the office of NSW Police Minister John
> Watkins and the RTA.

"We'll continue lowering speed limits around schools and busy
shopping areas to ensure that children don't learn how to
behave safely around roads and vehicles. That's sure to reduce
this type of crash."

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss.

[Diesel Damo]

> you just have to open both eyes.

And mine are wide open.

This argument has been done before and it ends in stale mate (or really
silly solutions). My scenario is the perfect example. I need a bullbar
on my car as I do contend with roos and all sorts of things like that -
but only for the first 100km of my drive to Sydney.

So, once I hit the Great Western Highway (and civilisation), what am I
supposed to do with my bullbar? Bury it for safe keeping? Pay someone
rent for minding it for me until I get back? Should I not be allowed in
suburban areas at all? Register myself as an official "I need the
bullbar so I'm allowed to have it" (which would be so easy to get
around, I'm not even going to bother to explain how)?

Seriously, I'm more than happy to hear a solution that works - works
*properly* though.

[Patrick Young]

sheik yerbouti wrote:

> i'm not a road safety nanny but logic says you just don't need the
> stupid things.

I neither like them or hate them, however have one, and a solid
steel chassis mounted rear step tow bar (not tinny SR5 Toyota
shite).

Pluses:

* Kangaroos on the rare occasion I'm _allowed_ out of my cage
(Sydney); strangly one of the hoops on the tow bar has taken
out a Kangaroo.
* Towel rail for when out of cage.
* Protection against idjuts who would reverse into you in car park.
* Protects vehicle front when working in engine bay from front.

Minus:

* PITA when working in engine bay from front.

Granted, if I have to give up one or other, the bull bar would go
first. I'll fight to the death for the rear step tow bar though!
as it has saved me from folk who really _have_ to drive up arse
due to lack of concentration. Win-Win; does not leave a scratch
on my vehicle, which is good for them too as they don't have to
pay for my repairs :-)

[Mot Adv-NSW]

"Diesel Damo" <Diesel_4WD@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1105418544.565035.111610@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
>> you just have to open both eyes.


> Seriously, I'm more than happy to hear a solution that works - works
> *properly* though.

To start:-
* Parents keep children off the roads; and
* Do not collide with vehicles, humans, trailers or trees when driving. . .
.. .

[Diesel Damo]

> Do not collide with vehicles, humans, trailers
> or trees when driving

Okay, maybe I should've also specified the solution should actually be
possible to implement =)

[Noddy]

"sheik yerbouti" <delbo21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:56l6u0du1rmp3k6ic17nr0ciq63t2ajo66@4ax.com...

> if you're being unemotive the solution would be to remove all bullbars
> as they're useless.

Maybe to you.

Mine's already been used a number of times, particularly in supermarket
carparks :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Noddy]

"sheik yerbouti" <delbo21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:luk6u05sn1p5tdebor1lrdcj3211mu97ph@4ax.com...

> scruby may be a poster child for abortion but on one point it's hard
> to argue - why do urban 4WDs need bullbars? it's a proven fact they
> can kill.

*Cars* kill.

At what point do you want to draw a line in the sand? Nerf cars?

> i'm not a road safety nanny but logic says you just don't need the
> stupid things.

99% of the population don't need cars with more than one seat most of the
time.

--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Chris]

Sad as it is, he'd be dead whether the 4wd had a bull bar or not! How can
you say it was the bull bar that killed him! On a more synical note, don't
you hate it when you read a report about someone who dies. EVERY person they
speak to says he was 'the nicest boy I'd ever met!' or he was a very
talented and very gentle, and never hurt anyone! blah blah blah! I want to
hear someone say something like this:
"Well, he really was a bit of a dead shit! Never did nuthin for no-one!
Probably won't know he's gone in 6 months!"
It'll never happen! Seriously though, My sympathies to the family of the
deceased, and also to the driver of the 4wd (assuming he wasn't speeding or
driving like a maniac! Of course the Pedestrian Council will make out that
he was!). That's something he'll live with for the rest of his life.
"sheik yerbouti" <delbo21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5mi6u0pkgq35bkg7fub64ppcr78htjlal2@4ax.com...
> Dead boy's family launches bullbar campaign
> January 11, 2005 - 1:30PM
>
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Dead-boys-family-launches-bullbar-cam
paign/2005/01/11/1105206095619.html
>
> The family of a Melbourne boy killed by a four-wheel-drive has begun a
> campaign to ban deadly bullbars from vehicles in urban areas.
>
> Shahid Hajher, seven, died in his sister's arms in the NSW south coast
> town of Kiama on January 5 after he was hit by a four-wheel-drive
> fitted with a bullbar.
>
> His cousin, Farid Rawan, has become a political lobbyist and is
> calling for a ban on bullbars on vehicles in NSW's urban areas.
>
> Mr Rawan, a Sydney computer engineer, hoped Shahid's death would not
> be in vain.
>
> He yesterday launched an email petition urging people to support a ban
> on bullbars on urban vehicles.
>
> It was "ridiculous" for urban motorists to fit their cars with
> bullbars, Mr Rawan said.
>
> "I'm sure in the country there's a big argument for them to prevent
> kangaroos coming through the windscreen," he said.
>
> "I don't know how often that happens but in the city there's just no
> reason to have a bullbar."
>
> Mr Rawan said his cousin was a gentle and brilliantly talented child.
>
> "Shahid was one of the most innocent and sweetest kids I have ever
> met," he said.
>
> "If he was in the house for a day it would light the whole house up."
>
> The Pedestrian Council of Australia has backed Mr Rawan's campaign.
>
> Council chairman Harold Scruby said bullbars were a factor in up to 12
> per cent of pedestrian deaths, but police and the Roads and Traffic
> Authority (RTA) were not enforcing standards regarding unsafe
> bullbars.
>
> But motorists would gain demerit points for unsafe bullbars from March
> 1, he said.
>
> Lake Illawarra police supervisor Sergeant Bryan Rugg said today police
> were unlikely to press charges against the driver of the
> four-wheel-drive that hit Shahid.
>
> Comment was being sought from the office of NSW Police Minister John
> Watkins and the RTA.
>
> - AAP
>

[sheik yerbouti]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:09:38 GMT, "Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au>
wrote:


>> i'm not a road safety nanny but logic says you just don't need the
>> stupid things.
>
>99% of the population don't need cars with more than one seat most of the
>time.

but adding seats doesn't kill people the same way a bull-bar can.

there is no denying they are dangerous.

[sheik yerbouti]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:45:29 +1100, Patrick Young
<patrick@hilux.ace.unsw.EDU.AU> wrote:

>
>Pluses:
>
>* Kangaroos on the rare occasion I'm _allowed_ out of my cage
> (Sydney); strangly one of the hoops on the tow bar has taken
> out a Kangaroo.
>* Towel rail for when out of cage.
>* Protection against idjuts who would reverse into you in car park.
>* Protects vehicle front when working in engine bay from front.
>

there's no doubt bull-bars come in handy in some situations but it's
clear that comes at a price. probably a lot of people here like to use
their 4WDs properly but most don't.

[sheik yerbouti]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:14:39 +1100, "Chris" <someone@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>Sad as it is, he'd be dead whether the 4wd had a bull bar or not! How can
>you say it was the bull bar that killed him!

there's no doubt a bar increases the injury risk when bouncing a
person off it. maybe he'd have died even without one, who knows.

certainly many cases would have been less serious if no bar was
fitted.

[sheik yerbouti]

On 11 Jan 2005 04:36:13 GMT, athol <me@privacy.net> wrote:


>
>> Council chairman Harold Scruby said bullbars were a factor in up to 12
>> per cent of pedestrian deaths,
>
>A huge 12%. And that's only a _factor_.
>
>IOW, 12% of pedestrian fatalities involve vehicles fitted with
>bullbars, regardless of whether the bullbar would have worsened
>the level of injury and whether its absence would have avoided
>the crash in the first place...

not really, because if they've done their analysis correctly,
collisions with bull-bars which were not survivable anyway (ie. above
40 km/h you are unlikely to return to normal life again) would be
discounted.

i haven't seen the analysis but they should have excluded that.

OT but this is the fatal flaw in the adelaide uni 50 km/h speed zone
study that showed such a huge increase in risk with speed - i don't
believe it filters out drink drivers, but looks purely at speed.

>
>"We'll continue lowering speed limits around schools and busy
>shopping areas to ensure that children don't learn how to
>behave safely around roads and vehicles. That's sure to reduce
>this type of crash."

people will always make mistakes. it's useful to say this, but not to
offer it as a complete solution.

[sheik yerbouti]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:53:38 +1100, "Mot Adv-NSW"
<mot.adv@gotalk.net.au> wrote:


>
>To start:-
>* Parents keep children off the roads; and
>* Do not collide with vehicles, humans, trailers or trees when driving. . .
>. .

if no one crashes we don't need seat belts, airbags, safe cars either.