UPS Advice

[Ext User(Don)]

I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

[Ext User(Paul)]

Don wrote:
> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
> the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
> subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with
> automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 -
> $100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than running my
> machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
> anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad
> G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I
> look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

If you go to Newegg, look through the category section for "UPS", then
do an Advanced search with no criterion specified, you'll see
a lot of UPS listed. Then, "sort" the list by "best rating". Then
look at the units, and read the customer reviews.

Generally speaking, don't buy the lowest tier of products, because
their main feature is "price competition". It doesn't mean the
average unit lasts a long time, or is trouble free.

Here is an example of something from the list.

APC BR1500LCD 1500VA 865 Watts 8 Outlets BACK-UPS $200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842101067

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/A...7VAU_R0_EN.pdf

http://www.apcc.com/resource/include...LCD&tab=models

I paid a little bit more than that, for my UPS, and I believe it is currently
seven years old and still working (I just checked the invoice).

The runtime on that unit, isn't that long, at least near its rated
power output. It would last a lot longer, if the load were lighter.
Some other model, allows connecting an extra battery, to give a
longer runtime.

Paul

[Ext User(david)]

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:17:56 -0400, Don rearranged some electrons to say:

> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
> the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
> subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with
> automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 -
> $100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than running my
> machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
> anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad
> G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I
> look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

APC

[Ext User(John Doe)]

"Don" <don.meng@live.ca> wrote:

> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went
> and the technician said that it was probably because the machine
> was subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get
> a UPS with automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for
> something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR
> function than running my machine in a blackout and power outages
> aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend something?

Yes, I would forget about messing with a battery and just get the
voltage regulator. I believe they are typically much more reliable.
I have a cheapo APC Line-R, but I plan to pay more for a (hopefully
better) Tripp Lite LC-1200 if there is ever an indication that it is
not doing well enough. The US price for the Tripp Lite is just over
$100.

http://computers.pricegrabber.com/li...pp-Lite-1200W-
87-140V-120V-60HZ-4OUTLET/m25249.html

The cheapo APC I have was only about $60, but it has only three LEDs
and of course is less functional. The more expensive Tripp Lite will
have real outlets instead of just bent metal pieces.

If the technician is correct, you will enjoy watching the LED voltage
indicators show you what is going on with your house power.

Good luck and have fun.





--
By the way, always keep a removable media copy of any important files
from your hard drive. How frequently and how many copies you make
depends on how important your files are to you.

[Ext User(david)]

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:17:56 -0400, Don rearranged some electrons to say:

> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
> the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
> subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with
> automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 -
> $100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than running my
> machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
> anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad
> G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I
> look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

PS: Do NOT use a voltage regulator (ferroresonant transformer) in
combination with any type of active power factor correction, either in a
UPS front end, or a power supply; they will not play nice together.
Have seen the damage that can be done on a poorly designed 15 kVA UPS
with a ferroresonant transformer in front of it (it caught on fire).

[Ext User(John Doe)]

david <none@nospam.com> wrote:

> Don rearranged some electrons to say:

>> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply
>> went and the technician said that it was probably because the
>> machine was subjected to many periods of low voltage. He
>> suggested I get a UPS with automatic voltage regulation. I'm
>> looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm more
>> interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a
>> blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
>> anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their
>> GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth
>> getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower,
>> Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?
>
> PS: Do NOT use a voltage regulator (ferroresonant transformer) in
> combination with any type of active power factor correction,
> either in a UPS front end,

Are you seriously suggesting that the original poster is supposed to
know whether the regulator is on the front or the back end of a UPS?
Should that be specified in Tripp Lite's UPS/AVR documentation,
David?

> or a power supply; they will not play nice together. Have seen
> the damage that can be done on a poorly designed 15 kVA UPS with a
> ferroresonant transformer in front of it (it caught on fire).

Huh? Are you suggesting that UPS/AVR combinations are a poor design?
You must be making millions on your own dazzling designs, David,
considering the fact that Tripp Lite makes many different UPS/AVR
combinations (and does very well selling them).

Please provide more clues about what you are trying to say, David.

[Ext User(Dave)]

"Don" <don.meng@live.ca> wrote in message
news:78op6nF1n60etU1@mid.individual.net...
> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
> technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
> many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
> voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range.
I'm
> more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
> and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
> something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I
was
> wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
> CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?
>

You'd be better off just buying a good surge suppressor. Trying to extend
the life of a power supply with a UPS system is like buying a new house just
to store your motorcycle in, because the garage you already own isn't
heated. It's a huge waste of money with no measurable benefit.

First problem, you won't find anything decent for less than $200. You could
buy two or three decent power supplies for that price, if you shop
carefully. Second problem is, the batteries won't last as long as a decent
power supply will.

You'll probably end up spending many hundreds of dollars on UPS units over
the next decade. (because it will be cheaper to buy new than replace
batteries) Or, you can buy a power supply or two. Your choice, I know
where I'd spend my money though. -Dave

[Ext User(Don)]

"Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
news:h07kuq$age$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Don" <don.meng@live.ca> wrote in message
> news:78op6nF1n60etU1@mid.individual.net...
>> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
>> the
>> technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
>> many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
>> voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range.
> I'm
>> more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
>> and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
>> something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I
> was
>> wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands,
>> i.e.
>> CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?
>>
>
> You'd be better off just buying a good surge suppressor. Trying to extend
> the life of a power supply with a UPS system is like buying a new house
> just
> to store your motorcycle in, because the garage you already own isn't
> heated. It's a huge waste of money with no measurable benefit.
>
> First problem, you won't find anything decent for less than $200. You
> could
> buy two or three decent power supplies for that price, if you shop
> carefully. Second problem is, the batteries won't last as long as a
> decent
> power supply will.
>
> You'll probably end up spending many hundreds of dollars on UPS units over
> the next decade. (because it will be cheaper to buy new than replace
> batteries) Or, you can buy a power supply or two. Your choice, I know
> where I'd spend my money though. -Dave
>
>
I was wondering about that. I now have a good quality 550 watt power supply
whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's lower power
output, it was no Wal-Mart special. Would having a larger capacity power
supply last longer under the conditions described in this post? I don't
think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This community has
undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and the electric
utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed infrastructure
improvements.

[Ext User(Dave)]

> I was wondering about that. I now have a good quality 550 watt power
supply
> whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's lower power
> output, it was no Wal-Mart special.
> Would having a larger capacity power
> supply last longer under the conditions described in this post? I don't
> think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This community has
> undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and the electric
> utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed infrastructure
> improvements.
>

OK, IMHO, your power supply failure was probably unrelated to your
electrical utility issues. Power supplies fail. GOOD quality, brand name
power supplies fail. Having input A/C be rock-solid stable at a certain
voltage and frequency is no guarantee that your power supply is going to
last a long time.

Could brown-outs have caused your power supply to fail EARLIER? Possibly.

But capacity (550 vs. 350) is not going to make a difference. Both will run
at the same output level, when driving YOUR hardware. Efficiency will make
a difference, though. That is, if your 350W was unrated for efficiency, but
the new one is 85% efficient, that means that it will be running cooler.
That not only saves electricity, but is likely to extend the life of the
power supply, regardless of input voltage "issues".

Bad news is, last I checked anyway, there were no really good power supplies
being made in the ~550W range. Just average quality to slightly better than
average but still not too exciting quality. Power supply manufactures seem
to be focusing quality improvements in units rated at 650W or more (usually
much more).

OK, I'm rambling. I think the best you can do is, exactly what you've done.
But do NOT leave your computer running 24/7 as some people do. There is
nothing wrong with that necessarily. But in your case, it will expose the
computer to more brownouts. OH, and make sure that the computer is running
off a power strip or (preferably) surge suppressor with a power switch.
When the computer is not in use, turn power off at the surge suppressor so
that the power supply is not getting A/C current at all, even if the power
supply is "OFF". Modern power supplies are never off unless they have no
input current. So killing power to the power supply when not in use will
(in your case anyway) probably extend the life of it a bit. -Dave

[Ext User(Flasherly@live.com)]

On Jun 3, 10:17 pm, "Don" <don.m...@live.ca> wrote:
> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
> technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
> many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
> voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
> more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
> and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
> something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
> wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
> CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

I get brownouts a lot, lightning flashes that slamdunk the computer,
or seven hurricanes in a summer that leave me with nothing more than a
waterbed to keep cool, near the equator, while utilities are
restored. I know people who have watched great balls of lightning,
call "fireballs", come through the door to visit and roll across the
floor. When people have asked me to replace a PS, I try to get the top
of the pile for their money. Local stores, such Walmart I'd
practically consider at the bottom. $100 is about what I paid for my
personal PS. The very best reviewed PS I could subject myself to. I
bought it in a box from the very cheapest provider with assurances the
factory seal wasn't broken or the warranty invalidated. I also
insisted they first check inventory stock first, covering every angle,
whereupon they told me there was one left in the bathtub. Guess that
was meant to be, so I bought it 5 years ago: SPARKLE. Average-sized,
except it's extremely packed and dense and weighs in like a brick. I
should nickname it Uriah Faber.

[Ext User(nobody >)]

Don wrote:
>
>
> "Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
> news:h07kuq$age$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Don" <don.meng@live.ca> wrote in message
>> news:78op6nF1n60etU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went
>>> and the
>>> technician said that it was probably because the machine was
>>> subjected to
>>> many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
>>> voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range.
>> I'm
>>> more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a
>>> blackout
>>> and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
>>> something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I
>> was
>>> wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands,
>>> i.e.
>>> CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?
>>>
>>
>> You'd be better off just buying a good surge suppressor. Trying to
>> extend
>> the life of a power supply with a UPS system is like buying a new
>> house just
>> to store your motorcycle in, because the garage you already own isn't
>> heated. It's a huge waste of money with no measurable benefit.
>>
>> First problem, you won't find anything decent for less than $200. You
>> could
>> buy two or three decent power supplies for that price, if you shop
>> carefully. Second problem is, the batteries won't last as long as a
>> decent
>> power supply will.
>>
>> You'll probably end up spending many hundreds of dollars on UPS units
>> over
>> the next decade. (because it will be cheaper to buy new than replace
>> batteries) Or, you can buy a power supply or two. Your choice, I know
>> where I'd spend my money though. -Dave
>>
>>
> I was wondering about that. I now have a good quality 550 watt power
> supply whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's
> lower power output, it was no Wal-Mart special. Would having a larger
> capacity power supply last longer under the conditions described in this
> post? I don't think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This
> community has undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and
> the electric utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed
> infrastructure improvements.

I waited a while before posting on this, glad I did. (I was also waiting
to see if the infamous electricity lunatic "westom" would pop up.. so
far not!)

Speaking of him,
http://www.google.com/groups?q=westo...TF-8&scoring=d
It's a hoot to follow the threads he tries to take over with his screedy
k00k thoughts.
His latest incarnation is <westom1@gmail.com>
You may want to call me a k00k after reading this though, I'm home on
temp disability from shoulder surgery and bored. I'm too old to drag
miles of CAT6 and coax, climb up towers/down in vaults, or crawl on top
of truck cabs installing antennas. Making long rambling and maybe boring
posts keeps me "occupied".


First caveat:
PC repair technicians (as well as most "systems analysts" or "IT
professionals") aren't usually well-versed in either electricity or
electronics. They don't really have to be, PCs are pretty much "remove
and replace the part" for hardware repairs, and there's no hazardous
voltages inside an ATX or later PC (unless you OPEN the powersupply).
Software's binary code, not volts/amps. That's not saying that your
tech doesn't know his stuff.

(bragging on..)

I was an electrician and an electronic technician long before the PC
showed up. I self-taught myself in electronics as a boy on the farm when
most of it was still vacuum tubes, and yep, my beard's a bit grey.

An electronics technician can easily be an electrician, (bigger tools,
less test equipment) the difference is the
mechanical/construction/plumbing end, something farm boys usually have
covered. Electrons don't care what your title is. Contracts, unions, and
laws do.

Motorola Radio Service Software got me into PC repairs as a radio
technician. We used Compaq 286 "sewing machine" pooters on the bench
running "MRSS" to program and align/adjust Motorola two-way radios for
copcars and firetrucks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Portable
http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/compaq/
(fwiw, I snagged that machine at city surplus and stashed it away!)
I got tired of seeing my "tool" go away for a week into the bowels of a
Compaq service center whenever it got sick, so I learned MSDOS 3.31 and
PC hardware. I didn't buy a premade for my first PC, I built it myself
in 1991 (wheee... 386SX16, 100 MB HD, 4 megs RAM) and it was "downhill"
from there.

I'm now a "communications electrician" for a large public power utility.
Our mission-critical workstations are industrial (like Suns) and the
"PC" based critical stuff is Texas Microsystems or similar, often built
in-house.

(bragging off... but I did want you to know where I come from)


First observation:
Mainstream PC power supplies (PSs) are built (and sold) so cheaply (even
the gourmet brands that modders are so fond of) that it's amazing that
they bomb as seldom as they do. Industrial PSs like Texas Micro's stuff
does have a better reliability factor, but just that PS alone costs as
much as a mid-range gamer's PC. You don't even want to ask what an
avionics power supply for a weapons subsystem on an F16D costs, but they
do seem quite reliable ;}

Second observation:
Thank ghu that the fail modes of these power supplies (even *cringe*
Bestecs) don't damage the rest of the computer "most" of the time. (for
some value of "most".. my personal experience is about 1 fried
mobo/blown RAM/toasted HD for 6 puked PSs)

Your first bad power supply scares the crap out of you, especially if
you don't have some form of data backup in place. Chill out a little.


Now for the electrical stuff...


Have you had a lot of other home appliance, electronics, or lighting
problems? Usually, "bad power" causes other problems.

"120 VAC" means a so-call spec range of 105 to 135 VAC. It's wide
because the "Nominal" voltage never really standardized until recently.
Some old stuff says 110 VAC, then it was 115 VAC, then 117 VAC and now
it's 120VAC.

Most utilities try for 115-125 volts,


High (surge) voltage kills light bulbs. Really high (spike) voltage
smokes electronics.
Low (sag) voltage overheats motors. Really low (brownout) voltage
overheats them far faster as in burnup. It usually doesn't damage
electronics, just makes it malfunction.
"Dirty" power is a different problem and may not show on a meter as
voltage that's less than 105V or more than 135V. "Dirt" can be many
things that make the waveform "severely non-sinusoidal". See a clean
sine wave at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave. Dirt is distortion.

The above are generalizations. There's a lot more.
I found a more in-depth treatise on this at
http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/power.htm
that was written well but easily understood


OK...

If you've had no noticeable other electrical problems, just chalk this
dead power supply off to "shit happens".

If you _have_ had other problems, contact your power utility. People
complain about "bad power" all the time but never call in the problem.
The utility can't fix it if they don't know about it, and there isn't
any cost effective way to preventively test each customer's feed. (that
may change with the next generation of electronic meters and automated
meter reading, it's actually done that way for large customers but with
specialized on-site equipment)

The buzzwords you need are "Power Quality", "Recording Voltmeter", and
"Voltage Control" when you talk to the Customer Service people. Ask them
to come out and run a test on your building and that should get action.
Reality is they will actually use a digital power quality recorder that
actually records far more than just voltage (unless your power utility
is still in the Stone Age, some are... unfortunately).

Be aware that the problem may be on "your side of the meter", as in
misbalanced loads, overloaded wiring, bad grounding, etc. What's called
a "loose neutral" is a common cause in older houses. Unfortunately to
trace down which "neutral is loose" can mean opening up every outlet and
junction box to fix, and there often is more than one. You'll end up
with an electrician as either your best friend or worst enemy...


UPSs and surge suppressors...

Suppressors/Protectors:

Do it.... but..

There's a lot of hokum, confusion, and outright lies out there regarding
surge suppressors (helloooo "westom".. here, kitty, kitty, kitty;} ).
This is about the best site I've seen that balances it all and makes
good non-brand but specification/feature recommendations with good
explanations
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...protector7.htm
(just ignore the Belkin in the picture, see later in post)

Opinions:

Depending on you are connected.. (some have both)
Get one that also handles your phone line(dialup modem or DSL)/LAN
in/outs with LAN RJ45 jacks (8 wire), RJ11(telephone) (6 wire) plugs
into RJ45s but not the other way around.
If you are on cable or FIOS that uses coax, make sure it has F
connectors. I know, fiberoptic cable itself won't bring in a surge from
outside the house, but crap can be cross-coupled off your TV or the
in-home phone system.

Get the one(s) with some of the widely-spaced "wallwart" outlets. You
also need to plug in all the damned powersupplies powering stuff that's
connected to your PC like modems, routers, USB hubs, printers speaker
systems, even the cellphone cradle/charger for your smartphone or
Ipoddy-like thing if it's also plugged into USB.

If you need even more outlets, it's OK to daisy-chain another suppressor
to get more holes, but it won't "up your protection factor". Treat the
downstream on as just another outlet strip.

Brands I consider OK if you get the specs right:
Tripplite, SG Waber, but I've not been shopping for a while. I feel that
anyone that puts a performance warranty to cover damage is probably OK,
just save the receipt and the warranty off the box.


Brands I don't like (and why, remember it's just my opinion).
Belkin (overpriced and I think "Belkin" is a made-up name that
intentionally sounds like Belden. I only buy "Belkin" stuff when there's
no other easy choice, like on a weekend and it's the only thing
available to set up someone's system. Probably OK tho..)
Monster Cable (think Belkin's overpriced? Gold plating doesn't do a
damned thing to improve performance. OK if you want to impress people..)


UPS?
This is another can of worms.
It's somewhat of an overkill for most PC users, provided you do backups
regularly and don't have something "mission critical" in use.

However, they do provide at least surge suppression.

They also help if you have frequent short power outages. Kinda humorous
and sad at the same time, but a good example is areas that get lots of
"drunk on a stick" (car/pole) accidents. The powerlines whip together
and arc, opening the "recloser" (a special fuselike device). A few
seconds later the recloser "recloses" and the juice is back. If the line
still has a problem, back open it goes. Older reclosers would cycle
three times, then stay open. You'll probably remember that happening,
now you know why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninter...e_power_supply tells it well.

What it boils down to for this post is that if you are trying to get
"regulation" or "clean power" out of a UPS, you can't get by with with a
"Offline / Standby UPS ". That eliminates Belkin right off the bat, as
well as probably anything you'll find at Staples, Home Depot, Fry's etc.
However, they'll work for the "recloser thing", or allow you to save and
close down a "mission critical" item. Just remember you'll have to have
the monitor plugged into the UPS to be able to see to do this.

I think I'll shut up... hope this helps.

[Ext User(david)]

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 04:48:36 +0000, John Doe rearranged some electrons to
say:

> david <none@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Don rearranged some electrons to say:
>
>>> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and
>>> the technician said that it was probably because the machine was
>>> subjected to many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS
>>> with automatic voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the
>>> $80 - $100 range. I'm more interested in the AVR function than
>>> running my machine in a blackout and power outages aren't as much of
>>> an issue. Can anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has
>>> their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth
>>> getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower, Belkin,
>>> or APC. Any thoughts?
>>
>> PS: Do NOT use a voltage regulator (ferroresonant transformer) in
>> combination with any type of active power factor correction, either in
>> a UPS front end,
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that the original poster is supposed to
> know whether the regulator is on the front or the back end of a UPS?
> Should that be specified in Tripp Lite's UPS/AVR documentation, David?
>
>> or a power supply; they will not play nice together. Have seen the
>> damage that can be done on a poorly designed 15 kVA UPS with a
>> ferroresonant transformer in front of it (it caught on fire).
>
> Huh? Are you suggesting that UPS/AVR combinations are a poor design? You
> must be making millions on your own dazzling designs, David, considering
> the fact that Tripp Lite makes many different UPS/AVR combinations (and
> does very well selling them).
>
> Please provide more clues about what you are trying to say, David.

Obviously you don't know anything about ferroresonant transformers.

[Ext User(John Doe)]

david <none@nospam.com> wrote:

> John Doe rearranged some electrons to say:
>
>> david <none@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Don rearranged some electrons to say:

>>>> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply
>>>> went and the technician said that it was probably because the
>>>> machine was subjected to many periods of low voltage. He
>>>> suggested I get a UPS with automatic voltage regulation. I'm
>>>> looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm more
>>>> interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a
>>>> blackout and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can
>>>> anyone recommend something? I saw that Best Buy has their
>>>> GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was wondering if it was worth
>>>> getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e. CyberPower,
>>>> Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> PS: Do NOT use a voltage regulator (ferroresonant transformer)
>>> in combination with any type of active power factor correction,
>>> either in a UPS front end,
>>
>> Are you seriously suggesting that the original poster is supposed
>> to know whether the regulator is on the front or the back end of
>> a UPS? Should that be specified in Tripp Lite's UPS/AVR
>> documentation, David?
>>
>>> or a power supply; they will not play nice together. Have seen
>>> the damage that can be done on a poorly designed 15 kVA UPS with
>>> a ferroresonant transformer in front of it (it caught on fire).
>>
>> Huh? Are you suggesting that UPS/AVR combinations are a poor
>> design? You must be making millions on your own dazzling designs,
>> David, considering the fact that Tripp Lite makes many different
>> UPS/AVR combinations (and does very well selling them).
>>
>> Please provide more clues about what you are trying to say,
>> David.
>
> Obviously you don't know anything about ferroresonant
> transformers.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit?

[Ext User(larry moe 'n curly)]

Don wrote:
>
> I just got my PC back from the repair shop. The power supply went and the
> technician said that it was probably because the machine was subjected to
> many periods of low voltage. He suggested I get a UPS with automatic
> voltage regulation. I'm looking for something in the $80 - $100 range. I'm
> more interested in the AVR function than running my machine in a blackout
> and power outages aren't as much of an issue. Can anyone recommend
> something? I saw that Best Buy has their GeekSquad G875U on sale and I was
> wondering if it was worth getting. Or should I look at other brands, i.e.
> CyberPower, Belkin, or APC. Any thoughts?

My Belkin backup supply/surge protector actually caused surge related
problems!

Really -- two completely different F6H375 backup power/surge
protection units from two different manufacturers. I had everything
plugged into them except the laser printer, but whenever the laser
turned on, the surge from it got into the Belkin's power control
circuitry and made it reset and briefly turn off the power. That
could have been prevented if they had been built with AC line filters
to block the surges, but all they had were three MOVs to clamp
excessive voltages. I added line filters, and the laser no longer
caused reboots. I also tested three different model APC/Conext
backups/protectors, each which contained a line filter, and they also
had no problems with the laser. Fortunately Belkin has quit selling
this type of product.

I'd stick with APC or Tripplite, which design their own products and
sell mostly big units to the commercial market. I don't know about
CyberPower, but they also design their products, including models that
are certified for use in hospitals (requires meeting higher safety
standards), so they may be good, too.

[Ext User(larry moe 'n curly)]

Don wrote:
>
> I now have a good quality 550 watt power supply
> whereas the one that failed was 350 watts. But despite it's lower power
> output, it was no Wal-Mart special. Would having a larger capacity power
> supply last longer under the conditions described in this post? I don't
> think this voltage issue is going to last for ever. This community has
> undergone a lot of growth in the past couple of years and the electric
> utility probably hasn't been able to keep up with needed infrastructure
> improvements.

What 550W do you have now, and what 350W did you have before? Higher
power ratings don't necessarily mean better quality, and sometimes
they don't even mean higher power capacity (I have old 300W Deltas
that look more substantial than newer 400-500W units of other makes).
And for power supplies of decent design, the biggest factor for
lifespan may be the quality of the electrolytic capacitors -- look at
all the old Antec TruePowers that failed before their 3-year
warranties expired because their Fuhjyyu capacitors blew. It's
possible that your 350W failed because of that and not because of
brownouts because computer PSUs for the North American market are
almost always designed to work at 100VAC. What's the voltage in your
house? A $25 Kill-A-Watt can tell you that and things like power
consumption, energy consumption, amps, and power factor.

[Ext User(westom)]

On Jun 4, 10:11*am, "Don" <misterd2...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> *Would having a larger capacity power supply last longer under the
> conditions described in this post? *I don't think this voltage issue is
> going to last for ever.

To sell power supplies that are missing essential functions, get
layman to promote price and power as the only solutions.

Most common reasons for power supply failure are manufacturing
defects. Did your tech open the dead body to identify a defective
part? I do. Supply failures often involve parts completely unrelated
to and well isolated from AC mains. Most computer techs do not even
know how electricity works. Electrical knowledge is not even required
to become an A+ Certified computer tech. But will often blame the
"usual suspects".

More power and dollars do not mean a better supply. All supplies
must work perfectly fine and happy even when lights dim to less than
40% intensity. One industry spec is blunt about this operation. The
phrase is "No Damage Region".

So make a supply last even longer, some supplies include a part to
prolong low voltage on power up. And still those without electrical
knowledge can promote brownouts as destructive.

Also foolish are recommendations for a surge protector. Protectors
do nothing (and connect computer directly to AC mains) when voltages
are below 300 volts. Your tech 'claims' failure is due to voltages
below 120 volts. Why would a surge protector help? Just another
example of the many who know because that is the popular urban myth.

Is the power supply sufficient? One technique to dump supplies into
a market of electrically naive computer techs? Provide no numeric
specs. Specifications do not mean a power supply is sufficient. But,
so that the electrically knowledgeable cannot identify a defective
supply, the manufacturer must 'forget' to provide written numeric
specs with the supply.

Many supplies marketed to computer assemblers do not even meet UL or
FCC specs. But look who they are marketing to? Some who fix
computers do not even have basic electrical knowledge which is why so
many inferior power supplies are hyped only on dollars and watts.

[Ext User(nobody >)]

westom wrote:

Remember, I said this k00^^atic would show up ...
I think he has a script set up to autosearch Usenet for anything related
to "power supply", "UPS", "surge suppression", "ground" (or "earth" for
the Brits) and such.

[Ext User(Paul)]

nobody > wrote:
> westom wrote:
>
> Remember, I said this k00^^atic would show up ...
> I think he has a script set up to autosearch Usenet for anything related
> to "power supply", "UPS", "surge suppression", "ground" (or "earth" for
> the Brits) and such.

You can set up "Google alerts" to send you email, when your
favorite keywords are mentioned. Great for stalking etc.

http://www.google.ca/alerts?hl=en

Paul

[Ext User(westom)]

On Jun 5, 7:48 pm, "nobody >" <usenetharves...@aol.com> wrote:
> Remember, I said this k00^^atic would show up ...

Posting insults proves intelligence? Those who know power by doing
it (not just repairing it) know the only useful protection is
earthed. How often were your designs required to take direct
lightning strikes and never hiccup. But that was not discussed
because it was not relevant to the OPs question. Why are you
posting? Are you also so wacko as to recommend a surge protector
for brownout protection?

We do agree on the various power anomalies. However your numbers
are to tight. Greater voltage variations are completely acceptable to
electronics. Do not cause failures. Then, when we provide those spec
numbers to technicians (which you are), we narrow them. Your numbers
would be the dated values. But again, low voltage does not harm
electronics.

Obviously a larger supply would not solve the OPs problem. Where do
you answre that OP's question? A bigger supply (more power) is not a
better supply. Others recommended a protector for brownouts - which
would do nothing. Are you recommending a protector to protect from
brownouts? Are you also that ignorantly trained. Or just taking cheap
shots.

Why do you troll newsgroups to post on anything electric? Oh. You
reply only to things you better understand. Then we are same. Its
makes you as kooky as I. We both saw a discussion on power supplies
(UPSes). I came to help the OP - to post on the technicals - to
challenge obvious myths posted by others. Why are you here? Did you
troll these newsgroups waiting to attack others? Or to help the OP?

Your summary of electrical anomalies, for the most part, is correct.
If you have a problem with what was posted, then challenge the
technicals. If you are a technician and responsible, then you posted
the technical conundrums. Your choice. Stick to the facts and be
helpful to the OP. Or mask technical ignorance by taking cheap
shots. For the most part, your previous post was chain of vague
'could bes'.

The OP's "technician said that it was probably because the
machine was subjected to
many periods of low voltage." Low voltage does not harm properly
designed power supplies. But when so many are so technically ignorant
as to recommend a surge protector for brownout protection, well, as
you said, there are many inferior supplies dumped in the market. With
so many electrically ignorant computer 'experts', then the market is
ripe for scam supplies. Where do you agree or disagree?

If you are the kook, you also recommend a protector for low voltage
protection. What are you? Another cheap shot artist or someone who
helps the OP. Who answers the OPs questions. The kook says low
voltages will damage a supply. He knows because he feels is it true.
Are you also so ill trained as to agree? Or do you know that many if
not most failures are traceable to component failure. Manufacturing
defects that appear months or years later. Not created by low
voltage.

[Ext User(Mike Tomlinson)]

In article <II8Wl.12453$im1.10676@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com>, John Doe
<jdoe@usenetlove.invalid> writes

>If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit?

That's w_tom's (westom's) stock-in-trade...

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png