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Thread: Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

  1. #41
    Ext User(Poutnik) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?


    Poutnik posted Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:15:25 +0200

    > Char Jackson posted Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:12:37 -0500


    .........
    > > An external drive that stays connected (for convenience) is susceptible
    > > to all of your perceived risks.
    > > ..................
    > > I can do backups whenever I want to, and I'm
    > > not susceptible to any of your risks.

    ........

    BTW, reading this together is rather funny.

    --
    Poutnik

  2. #42
    Ext User(Ken Blake) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:12:37 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    wrote:

    > On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 10:25:38 -0700, Ken Blake <kblake@kb.invalid> wrote:
    >
    > >On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:20:39 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    > >wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:52:54 -0700, Ken Blake <kblake@kb.invalid> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 21:25:09 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    > >> >wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >> I agree that important data should be backed up, but I don't necessarily
    > >> >> share the recommendation to use an external drive. They can be pretty
    > >> >> inconvenient.
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >Inconvenient? Perhaps.
    > >> >
    > >> >But far safer than an internal one. I don't recommend backup to a
    > >> >second non-removable hard drive because it leaves you susceptible to
    > >> >simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of the most
    > >> >common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby lightning strikes, virus
    > >> >attacks, even theft of the computer.
    > >>
    > >> I could be wrong, but I think you're describing a scenario where the person
    > >> is backing up to a second internal drive *on the same system*.

    > >
    > >
    > >Yes, you're right.
    > >
    > >
    > >> I agree, that
    > >> doesn't offer a whole lot of protection and isn't something I generally
    > >> advocate. Personally, I make backups to internal drives on other (networked)
    > >> systems, both within my home and sometimes located in someone else's home.
    > >> No external drives for me, thank you very much.

    > >
    > >
    > >Your choice, of course, but as far as I'm concerned, an external drive
    > >is safer (at least safer than a networked computer in your own home).
    > >You are still exposed to simultaneous loss of the original and backup
    > >to severe power glitches, nearby lightning strikes, and burglars.

    >
    > As far as I'm concerned, I like my way MUCH better than your way. An
    > external drive that stays connected (for convenience) is susceptible to all
    > of your perceived risks,


    Yes, that's why it shouldn't stay connected.


    > while an external that's disconnected is much less
    > likely to be used,



    By those who don't know enough or don't care enough about their data,
    yes. But then they are being very foolish.


    >and is still susceptible to loss and theft.



    Susceptible, yes. But far less likely. A burglar who enters a home and
    sees a computer knows what it is and steals it. If the external drive
    is put away somewhere (closet, drawer, etc.) may not even see it and
    if he does, he doesn't even know what it is. And even if he finds it
    and knows what it is, he is much less likely to want it than a
    computer. He can get much more money from his fence for a computer
    than from a hard drive.


    > Not a great
    > idea, IMHO. I can do backups whenever I want to, and I'm not susceptible to
    > any of your risks.
    >
    > >What you do is certainly safer than an external drive on your own
    > >computer, but not as safe as an external drive kept in a bank vault.

    >
    > I'm sorry, but that's just crazy. I can't back up to a drive kept in a bank
    > vault. We're still talking about backups, right? I don't have access to a
    > bank vault, and I don't know anyone who does. I think we've had this
    > conversation before.



    OK, call it a safe deposit box instead of a bank vault. I don't know
    anybody who doesn't have one. And keeping it there and backing it up
    there are two entirely different things.

    For really secure backup, you should have multiple generations of
    backup. At least one of those generations should be stored off-site
    (for example, in a safe deposit box). This type of secure backup would
    be important, for example, if the life of your business depends on
    your data.



  3. #43
    Ext User(Gene E. Bloch) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 10:34:18 +0000 (UTC), FromTheRafters wrote:

    > On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 18:55:47 -0700
    > "Gene E. Bloch" <not-me@other.invalid> wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 15:05:43 +0100, Jax wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Gene E. Bloch" <not-me@other.invalid> wrote in
    >>> news:125dkjtzqq80z$.dlg@stumbler1907.invalid:
    >>>
    >>>> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 22:34:37 +0100, Jax wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> FromTheRafters <erratic@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
    >>>>> news:20130927145346.2597e9f2.erratic@nomail.afraid .org:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:28:31 +0100
    >>>>>> Jax <remove.bear.bottoms1@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Zaphod Beeblebrox <Zaphod.Arisztid.Beeblebrox@gmail.com> wrote in
    >>>>>>> news:MPG.2caf431586be9a6998988c@news.eternal-september.org:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> > On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:20:58 +0100, "p-0''0-h the cat (ES)"
    >>>>>>> > <super.pooh@furryfreeware.invalid> wrote in article
    >>>>>>> > <npea49l5kfgub9ol9uhtq399tfkee3nd47@4ax.com>...
    >>>>>>> >>
    >>>>>>> >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:14:34 +0200, Poutnik
    >>>>>>> >> <poutnik@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    >>>>>>> >>
    >>>>>>> >> >Prints, especially if protected against light and air, are more
    >>>>>>> >> >durable than digital storage.
    >>>>>>> >>
    >>>>>>> >> That's simply not true. Digital storage offers the possibility of
    >>>>>>> >> lasting indefinitely without loss,
    >>>>>>> >
    >>>>>>> > I'd be interested in hearing which digital medium you are referring
    >>>>>>> > to that lasts indefinitely without degradation of the media or data
    >>>>>>> > stored thereon.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Zaphod.... digital data last for ever. You can't destroy the notion
    >>>>>>> of a 1 or 0. Think about it!
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Do you know what a medium is in this context?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Rafters a medium is someone who can communicate with dead spirits. I
    >>>>> visit one a couple of time a year. But what has this got to do with the
    >>>>> permanence of digital data? Just asking!
    >>>>
    >>>> Perhaps he's thinking of a medium who can communicate with a dead
    >>>> medium.
    >>>
    >>> Gene there's no evidence that Rafters has given it sufficient thought.

    >>
    >> Shall I explain my pun?
    >>
    >> I'd prefer not to.

    >
    > There's no need, unless you want Jax to understand.


    LOL! Thanks for that...

    > Are mediums rare around your neck of the woods?


    In tee shirts, I wear either Large or Extra Large, myself. Other
    garments can be medium.

    --
    Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

  4. #44
    Ext User(Gene E. Bloch) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:26:58 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:12:37 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    wrote:

    ....

    >> I'm sorry, but that's just crazy. , and I don't know anyone who does. I think we've had this
    >> conversation before.


    > OK, call it a safe deposit box instead of a bank vault. I don't know
    > anybody who doesn't have one. And keeping it there and backing it up
    > there are two entirely different things.


    I had to laugh at what CJ wrote above, and was going to make a similar
    remark to yours :-)

    To me, his two remarks "I can't back up to a drive kept in a bank vault"
    and "I don't have access to a bank vault" constituted a quibble which
    was, for the wrong reasons, very amusing.

    BTW, I don't have a bank vault^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h safe deposit box,
    although I have had one in the past. So currently you know of at least
    one person not so equipped :-)

    --
    Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

  5. #45
    Ext User(Char Jackson) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:26:58 -0700, Ken Blake <kblake@kb.invalid> wrote:

    >On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:12:37 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    >wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 10:25:38 -0700, Ken Blake <kblake@kb.invalid> wrote:
    >>
    >> >On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:20:39 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    >> >wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:52:54 -0700, Ken Blake <kblake@kb.invalid> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 21:25:09 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
    >> >> >wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> I agree that important data should be backed up, but I don't necessarily
    >> >> >> share the recommendation to use an external drive. They can be pretty
    >> >> >> inconvenient.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >Inconvenient? Perhaps.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >But far safer than an internal one. I don't recommend backup to a
    >> >> >second non-removable hard drive because it leaves you susceptible to
    >> >> >simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of the most
    >> >> >common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby lightning strikes, virus
    >> >> >attacks, even theft of the computer.
    >> >>
    >> >> I could be wrong, but I think you're describing a scenario where the person
    >> >> is backing up to a second internal drive *on the same system*.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >Yes, you're right.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >> I agree, that
    >> >> doesn't offer a whole lot of protection and isn't something I generally
    >> >> advocate. Personally, I make backups to internal drives on other (networked)
    >> >> systems, both within my home and sometimes located in someone else's home.
    >> >> No external drives for me, thank you very much.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >Your choice, of course, but as far as I'm concerned, an external drive
    >> >is safer (at least safer than a networked computer in your own home).
    >> >You are still exposed to simultaneous loss of the original and backup
    >> >to severe power glitches, nearby lightning strikes, and burglars.

    >>
    >> As far as I'm concerned, I like my way MUCH better than your way. An
    >> external drive that stays connected (for convenience) is susceptible to all
    >> of your perceived risks,

    >
    >Yes, that's why it shouldn't stay connected.
    >
    >
    >> while an external that's disconnected is much less
    >> likely to be used,

    >
    >
    >By those who don't know enough or don't care enough about their data,
    >yes. But then they are being very foolish.
    >
    >
    >>and is still susceptible to loss and theft.

    >
    >
    >Susceptible, yes. But far less likely. A burglar who enters a home and
    >sees a computer knows what it is and steals it.


    Laptop, probably yes, because it's portable. Desktop, probably no, for the
    opposite reason.

    >If the external drive
    >is put away somewhere (closet, drawer, etc.) may not even see it and
    >if he does, he doesn't even know what it is.


    Doesn't know what it is? :-) Who are these ignorant burglars to which you
    refer?

    >And even if he finds it
    >and knows what it is, he is much less likely to want it than a
    >computer. He can get much more money from his fence for a computer
    >than from a hard drive.


    Who said anything about fencing? Not all burglaries result in fencing.
    Sometimes it's about simple data theft. If I were doing the B&E, I'd rather
    have the drive than the computer. There could be all kinds of gold in there.

    >> Not a great
    >> idea, IMHO. I can do backups whenever I want to, and I'm not susceptible to
    >> any of your risks.
    >>
    >> >What you do is certainly safer than an external drive on your own
    >> >computer, but not as safe as an external drive kept in a bank vault.

    >>
    >> I'm sorry, but that's just crazy. I can't back up to a drive kept in a bank
    >> vault. We're still talking about backups, right? I don't have access to a
    >> bank vault, and I don't know anyone who does. I think we've had this
    >> conversation before.

    >
    >
    >OK, call it a safe deposit box instead of a bank vault. I don't know
    >anybody who doesn't have one. And keeping it there and backing it up
    >there are two entirely different things.


    Since we've had this discussion before, I knew that a bank vault was really
    a safe deposit box, but the reality is that safe deposit box utilization by
    the under-60 crowd is at record lows and falling, according to what I've
    read. As I said, I don't have one and don't know anyone who does, which is
    why most banks give them away for nothing these days. Back on topic, though,
    an external hard drive locked in a safe deposit box is not likely to be
    retrieved on a regular basis to do additional backups, so it might serve
    fine as a one-time archive but makes a poor choice for regular backups.

    >For really secure backup, you should have multiple generations of
    >backup. At least one of those generations should be stored off-site
    >(for example, in a safe deposit box). This type of secure backup would
    >be important, for example, if the life of your business depends on
    >your data.


    I thought we were a couple of consumers talking about consumer solutions.
    Business solutions are a different animal altogether.

    --

    Char Jackson

  6. #46
    Ext User(Char Jackson) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:15:25 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    >
    >Char Jackson posted Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:12:37 -0500
    >
    >......
    >
    >> An external drive that stays connected (for convenience) is susceptible
    >> to all of your perceived risks.

    >
    >Sure.
    >
    >> ...while an external that's disconnected is much less likely to be
    >> used, and is still susceptible to loss and theft.

    >
    >The idea the USBBdrive disconnected and stored
    >is not strange to consider, many people use it.


    I didn't say it was strange. I know a lot of people who'll tell you that
    they use that strategy, and at first they dutifully haul out the external
    drive, hook it up, do a backup, and put it away again. (If only they would
    occasionally test their backup, but that's another story.) Over time, the
    interval between backups starts to stretch for the simple reason that it's
    inconvenient.

    Lots of my clients are older people, and to a very large extent they'll tell
    you that they use the method described above. Yet, when I check their
    external drives, I see that the last backup was done over a year ago, and
    sometimes two or more years ago. A backup strategy that doesn't get used is
    no better than no strategy at all.

    >> Not a great idea, IMHO. I can do backups whenever I want to, and I'm
    >> not susceptible to any of your risks.

    >
    >I am glad your systems are immune
    >to the lighning strikes, burglars and undesired software actions.


    Thanks. Me, too.

    --

    Char Jackson

  7. #47
    Ext User(Char Jackson) Guest

    Re: how to upgrade hard disk without loosing installed software?

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:21:34 +0200, Poutnik <poutnik@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    >
    >Poutnik posted Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:15:25 +0200
    >
    >> Char Jackson posted Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:12:37 -0500

    >
    >........
    >> > An external drive that stays connected (for convenience) is susceptible
    >> > to all of your perceived risks.
    >> > ..................
    >> > I can do backups whenever I want to, and I'm
    >> > not susceptible to any of your risks.

    >.......
    >
    >BTW, reading this together is rather funny.


    I think that means you didn't understand it, right?


    --

    Char Jackson

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