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Thread: VH Commodre broke in half

  1. #41
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "Clocky" <notgonn@happen.com> wrote in message
    news:5253350d$0$2786$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...

    > *If at fault*


    Ah, right. There's the qualifier that was missing.

    > Or you could place each comment in context.


    Yeah, I could, but doing so would largely be a waste of time when talking to
    you given how quickly your position is likely to change.

    > Are you really saying that manufacturers are in the habit of giving people
    > cars rather then defend claims against them?


    No. Why? are you?

    What I was saying, and still am, was that it would have been settled quickly
    and without an press at all if Holden simply provided the owner with a new
    car in exchange for a signed non disclosure agreement, and that was
    essentially in agreement with what you yourself were saying last night.

    But that was last night and you've had 8 hours or so to shift your position
    :)

    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.



  2. #42
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "Clocky" <notgonn@happen.com> wrote in message
    news:52533459$0$2885$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...

    > You can't tell that at all, it looks to me in the vicinity of later
    > reports.


    You can actually tell quite easily just by looking at the pictures. I've
    seen a few cars torn in half in accidents, but I've never seen one broken in
    half so cleanly as to leave the two halves so remarkably intact.

    Given that the incident was a non fatal accident that gained some media
    attention in it's day I would wager that I'm not the only one either.

    > Because it hit at an unusual angle which had the effect of shearing the
    > Commodore. Looks to me that the rear axle was hit with such force and
    > angle that it was torn away from the rest of the vehicle. No indication of
    > a minor accident, looks to me to be rather major.


    Rubbish. The other car is the give away. It's *not* extensively damaged, and
    certainly not to the extent that I think would be reasonable to expect given
    that it had cut a large sedan clean in half.

    > The circumstances of the accident were unique (the angle of impact and one
    > vehicle hooking the other at speed), the damage looks odd because of it
    > and whilst it appears to be unusual but subsequent investigations by
    > engineers seems to dismiss the poor weld and compromised structural
    > integrity theory.


    There was nothing "unique" about it at all as far as I can tell, and that
    accusation seemed to have originated with GMH along with one alleging
    excessive speed. That's perfectly understandable. GMH's position is to
    defend it's product, which is precisely why any claims from them should be
    immediately dismissed as fanciful bullshit.

    If you have a look at the comments in the original article with the photos,
    you'll see that the police attending the scene were of the opinion that
    excessive speed wasn't a factor and that the accident was considered "minor"
    with the police being amazed at the extent of the damage the Commodore
    suffered.

    Also in the article you'll see where the Chairman of the smash repair
    division of the Automobile Chamber of Commerce had examined the wreckage and
    declared that in his 30 years of repair work he'd seen nothing like it. To
    quote him directly:

    "Some of the spot welds were not welded together properly and, in one
    section, I found that only half the welds were satisfactory. The gauge of
    the metal in the floor was not heavy enough to resist that sort of accident.
    It didn't look like a very heavy impact and the only structural damage was a
    broken rear pillar. All the rest was the weld breaking away."

    > It was a rental car, so why the owner took on Holden who got the all-clear
    > is rather suspiciously like a pub tale as I can't find any reference to a
    > court case.
    >
    > But I'm still looking.


    It apparently was indeed a rental owned by Budget, so I have no idea where
    the part about the owner being burnt in court came from. Still, who knows.
    Maybe there *was* a VH as well and you might turn it up :)

    Finally, it's interesting to note the quoted comments of the manager of the
    Budget outlet where the car originated form, who said:

    "We have freighted it to our Mascot depot for our engineers to look at it,"
    he said. "But we see it as a GM-H problem."

    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.



  3. #43
    Ext User(Jason James) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On Monday, October 7, 2013 11:35:56 AM UTC+11, Blue Heeler wrote:
    > In a post in another thread today Clocky made mention of a VH Commodore
    >
    > that broke in half following a relatively minor accident.
    >
    >
    >
    > Clocky alluded to a subsequent court case in which the owner did not
    >
    > fare well.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I've been unable to find any reference to commodores (of any vintage)
    >
    > breaking unexpectedly in half in accidents.
    >
    >
    >
    > I did find reference to the original Opel Rekord body requiring
    >
    > extensive reworking to cope with Australian roads - apparently a rekord
    >
    > fitted with Australian running gear broke at the firewall after
    >
    > extended rough road testing - but that is hardly the definitive
    >
    > Commodore, Wikipedia says that by the time the first Commodore rolled
    >
    > off the line it had less than 35% commonality with the Opel edition.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Anyway, I do not think clocky made it up, so there must be something of
    >
    > a grain of truth in the story - does anyone know what happened? And if
    >
    > you can find something with names in it, then I can do a case search
    >
    > and see what happened in court.



  4. #44
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 2:12 AM, Clocky wrote:

    >
    > The US way hasn't worked out too well for them given the state of their
    > automotive industry ;-)
    >
    >

    Very true, I remember when I worked at Ford that the company always ran
    better and was more profitable when anyone except a Yank was the CEO,
    the Yanks tended to be bullies and tried to be tough guys and lots of
    Aussies won't put up with their shit and it affected productivity.

    --
    Daryl

  5. #45
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 2:18 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    > news:52529f06$0$11094$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
    >> On 07/10/2013 10:26 PM, Clocky wrote:
    >>> "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    >>> news:52525227$0$2910$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >>>> On 07/10/2013 5:06 PM, Noddy wrote:
    >>>>> On 07/10/13 1:27 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Well I doubt that the owner woul dhave ended up out of pocket. If the
    >>>>>> court decided that the vehicle was not defective, then the owner woul
    >>>>>> dhave been able to rely on his indemnity given by the insurer and the
    >>>>>> insurer would have had to pick up all the costs of the action, an
    >>>>>> action that came about because the insurer denied liability on the
    >>>>>> basis of defective design/manufacturing fault.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> A first year law studunet could have won that one for him providing
    >>>>>> your memory is accurate.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I remember what was printed in the paper at the time, but don't know
    >>>>> any
    >>>>> more about it than that other than a few people who saw the photos of
    >>>>> the damaged car all agreeing that it had a major structural failure in
    >>>>> a
    >>>>> way that was totally inconsistent with the amount of damage on the
    >>>>> other
    >>>>> car (which I think was something like a Toyota Corolla that clipped the
    >>>>> rear of the Commodore and got a bent bumper bar for it's trouble).
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> BUT
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I really would like more info, you see I have a little more info from
    >>>>>> another source.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Cool.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> A Wrecker near Proserpine in North QLD used to have a big sign on the
    >>>>>> highway (around the time of the VH commodore) to the effect that for
    >>>>>> $3,500 he would structurally reinforce your defective and dangerous
    >>>>>> Commodore so that it actually met Australian design rules and was safe
    >>>>>> to drive.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Wow. I wonder if GMH ever took issue with that?.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Oh. I see they did :)
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In the fullness of time, holden contacted him and requested him to
    >>>>>> cease, desist and remove his sign.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Holden got told to GFY.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Holden sued and mid trial when things were apparently going bad for
    >>>>>> them, made a settlement offer to wrecker. Such things are usually the
    >>>>>> subject of confidentiality, all I know is that the wrecker closed the
    >>>>>> doors, literally closed the doors and the wrecking yard became more
    >>>>>> and
    >>>>>> more overgrown until sold a few years back. The former wrecker
    >>>>>> apparently moved to Shute Harbour and spent a lot of time onboard his
    >>>>>> very new, and very big, game boat.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Interesting.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> I'd love to know more, but when I contacted the law firm I was told
    >>>>>> was
    >>>>>> involved involved, the partner who handled had since retired and lost
    >>>>>> his marbles, nobody else there remembered anything general about the
    >>>>>> matter and due to the confidentiality agreement wouldn't look at the
    >>>>>> files to tell me more.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Bugger.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> What I remember at the time was that talk of this particular case was
    >>>>> all over the repair industry down here, and particularly amongst panel
    >>>>> beaters who seemed to be of the opinion at the time that the Dunny had
    >>>>> some failings. When I mentioned earlier that a couple of people looked
    >>>>> at the photos with me one of them owned one of the biggest panel shops
    >>>>> in Melbourne at the time and was well positioned to tell if the car was
    >>>>> damaged in a way that would be reasonably expected given the type of
    >>>>> accident it was involved with and his opinion was most definitely not.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The give away in his opinion (and that of many others apparently), was
    >>>>> not only the lack of any substantial damage to the other car involved,
    >>>>> but the clean "break" line in the Commodore. As I said earlier, the
    >>>>> thing came apart looking like it had been carefully cut along a
    >>>>> particular line.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>> Sounds like a row or several rows of spot welds were missing which can
    >>>> easily happen if a machine breaks down on the production line but the
    >>>> body
    >>>> shouldn't get past QC.
    >>>
    >>> I dare say that if it was that bad you would notice the flex.

    >>
    >> Maybe but if it was very new it wasn't on the road long enough for it to
    >> show up.
    >>>
    >>>> If it was that simple I can't imagine Holden denying that it was
    >>>> production fault, if I was in charge at Holden I would have given the
    >>>> owner a new car and bought the wreck so the engineers could find out why
    >>>> it happened and make sure it didn't happen again.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Makes perfect sense that they would have done just that. Noddy's bullshit
    >>> about panelbeaters means jack shit, they're not structural engineers and
    >>> they didn't inspect the vehicle first hand.
    >>>
    >>> Perhaps it had been tampered with for all we know.

    >>
    >> That would be unlikely unless it was an older car and the owner
    >> deliberately set out to get Holden.
    >>

    >
    > Or the impact was in fact not minor at all and the speculative pub talk
    > turned it into something it wasn't.
    > As I said, it's too speculative to know.
    >
    >>> The fact that Holden (if this isn't some urban myth) fought it tooth and
    >>> nail and won is quite revealing IMO.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Not necessarily, I haven't had any direct dealing with Holden but like
    >> Ford they are an American company and they (American companies) have a
    >> rather odd attitude to such things, they would rather spend mega bucks on
    >> lawyers than admit they made a faulty product which might have something
    >> to do with US consumer laws.
    >> I know Ford replaced a couple of cars in the late 70's but they did it
    >> kicking and screaming and only when their legal team told them they
    >> couldn't win in court, the cost of replacing the cars was a fraction of
    >> the cost of fighting the customer yet they chose to fight anyway which
    >> makes no sense at all to me.
    >>

    >
    > It does when you consider the greater consequences and the precedent it
    > sets. Every ****wit will want another car for every fault.


    Not necessarily and especially if the new car was conditional on signing
    a confidentiality agreement, instead of a very pissed off customer bad
    mouthing their cars the customer would be happier and less likely to
    cause a fuss.
    Failing to replace a faulty car is IMO more likely to result in bad
    publicity.


    > Whilst Mercedes might buy back cars involved in major accidents, they're not
    > in the habit of handing out new cars to people involved in them - I can
    > assure you of that.
    >


    I'm sure you are right but IMO it shows that they are actually
    interested in making their cars safer and the US companies could learn a
    lot from them.


    --
    Daryl

  6. #46
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 2:20 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "atec77" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:l2u7ob$vm2$1@dont-email.me...
    >> On 7/10/2013 9:45 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>> On 07/10/2013 10:26 PM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>> "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    >>>> news:52525227$0$2910$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >>>>> On 07/10/2013 5:06 PM, Noddy wrote:
    >>>>>> On 07/10/13 1:27 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Well I doubt that the owner woul dhave ended up out of pocket. If the
    >>>>>>> court decided that the vehicle was not defective, then the owner woul
    >>>>>>> dhave been able to rely on his indemnity given by the insurer and the
    >>>>>>> insurer would have had to pick up all the costs of the action, an
    >>>>>>> action that came about because the insurer denied liability on the
    >>>>>>> basis of defective design/manufacturing fault.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> A first year law studunet could have won that one for him providing
    >>>>>>> your memory is accurate.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I remember what was printed in the paper at the time, but don't know
    >>>>>> any
    >>>>>> more about it than that other than a few people who saw the photos of
    >>>>>> the damaged car all agreeing that it had a major structural failure
    >>>>>> in a
    >>>>>> way that was totally inconsistent with the amount of damage on the
    >>>>>> other
    >>>>>> car (which I think was something like a Toyota Corolla that clipped
    >>>>>> the
    >>>>>> rear of the Commodore and got a bent bumper bar for it's trouble).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> BUT
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I really would like more info, you see I have a little more info from
    >>>>>>> another source.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Cool.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> A Wrecker near Proserpine in North QLD used to have a big sign on the
    >>>>>>> highway (around the time of the VH commodore) to the effect that for
    >>>>>>> $3,500 he would structurally reinforce your defective and dangerous
    >>>>>>> Commodore so that it actually met Australian design rules and was
    >>>>>>> safe
    >>>>>>> to drive.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Wow. I wonder if GMH ever took issue with that?.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Oh. I see they did :)
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> In the fullness of time, holden contacted him and requested him to
    >>>>>>> cease, desist and remove his sign.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Holden got told to GFY.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Holden sued and mid trial when things were apparently going bad for
    >>>>>>> them, made a settlement offer to wrecker. Such things are usually the
    >>>>>>> subject of confidentiality, all I know is that the wrecker closed the
    >>>>>>> doors, literally closed the doors and the wrecking yard became more
    >>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>> more overgrown until sold a few years back. The former wrecker
    >>>>>>> apparently moved to Shute Harbour and spent a lot of time onboard his
    >>>>>>> very new, and very big, game boat.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Interesting.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I'd love to know more, but when I contacted the law firm I was told
    >>>>>>> was
    >>>>>>> involved involved, the partner who handled had since retired and lost
    >>>>>>> his marbles, nobody else there remembered anything general about the
    >>>>>>> matter and due to the confidentiality agreement wouldn't look at the
    >>>>>>> files to tell me more.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Bugger.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> What I remember at the time was that talk of this particular case was
    >>>>>> all over the repair industry down here, and particularly amongst panel
    >>>>>> beaters who seemed to be of the opinion at the time that the Dunny had
    >>>>>> some failings. When I mentioned earlier that a couple of people looked
    >>>>>> at the photos with me one of them owned one of the biggest panel shops
    >>>>>> in Melbourne at the time and was well positioned to tell if the car
    >>>>>> was
    >>>>>> damaged in a way that would be reasonably expected given the type of
    >>>>>> accident it was involved with and his opinion was most definitely not.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The give away in his opinion (and that of many others apparently), was
    >>>>>> not only the lack of any substantial damage to the other car involved,
    >>>>>> but the clean "break" line in the Commodore. As I said earlier, the
    >>>>>> thing came apart looking like it had been carefully cut along a
    >>>>>> particular line.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Sounds like a row or several rows of spot welds were missing which can
    >>>>> easily happen if a machine breaks down on the production line but the
    >>>>> body
    >>>>> shouldn't get past QC.
    >>>>
    >>>> I dare say that if it was that bad you would notice the flex.
    >>>
    >>> Maybe but if it was very new it wasn't on the road long enough for it to
    >>> show up.
    >>>>
    >>>>> If it was that simple I can't imagine Holden denying that it was
    >>>>> production fault, if I was in charge at Holden I would have given the
    >>>>> owner a new car and bought the wreck so the engineers could find out
    >>>>> why
    >>>>> it happened and make sure it didn't happen again.

    >>
    >>>
    >>> Not necessarily, I haven't had any direct dealing with Holden but like
    >>> Ford they are an American company and they (American companies) have a
    >>> rather odd attitude to such things, they would rather spend mega bucks
    >>> on lawyers than admit they made a faulty product which might have
    >>> something to do with US consumer laws.
    >>> I know Ford replaced a couple of cars in the late 70's but they did it
    >>> kicking and screaming and only when their legal team told them they
    >>> couldn't win in court, the cost of replacing the cars was a fraction of
    >>> the cost of fighting the customer yet they chose to fight anyway which
    >>> makes no sense at all to me.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> in a word , precedent
    >>

    >
    > Yep, and all manufacturers would protect themselves in a similar fashion.
    > Anyone who thinks it's Holden specific is spending too much time with Mrs.
    > Palmer and her 5 daughters.
    >
    >

    It certainly isn't specific to any car company but I think they would
    set a better precedent by actually admitting that occasionally they make
    a lemon and just replace them.
    The lemon Mazda I bought in 1984 is a good example, after the way I was
    treated by Mazda and the dealer I would never own another and I go out
    of my way to let people know what I feel about Mazda and I have
    persuaded a few people not to buy Mazda's but if they had done the right
    thing and not ****ed me around I wouldn't be complaining but now I will
    continue to bad mouth them till the day I die.

    --
    Daryl

  7. #47
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 2:26 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    > news:l2ua5v$dr9$1@dont-email.me...
    >> On 07/10/13 10:45 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>
    >>> Maybe but if it was very new it wasn't on the road long enough for it to
    >>> show up.

    >>
    >> I can't remember *exactly* when it happened, but it was certainly within
    >> the life of the thing being a current car. In other words, it wasn't very
    >> old when it came apart in the accident.
    >>
    >>> That would be unlikely unless it was an older car and the owner
    >>> deliberately set out to get Holden.

    >>
    >> It'd be next to impossible to un-pick spot welds and make it look as if
    >> they hadn't been tampered with.
    >>

    >
    > The spot welds were fine and the collision wasn't minor is my bet.
    >
    >
    >>> Not necessarily, I haven't had any direct dealing with Holden but like
    >>> Ford they are an American company and they (American companies) have a
    >>> rather odd attitude to such things, they would rather spend mega bucks
    >>> on lawyers than admit they made a faulty product which might have
    >>> something to do with US consumer laws.
    >>> I know Ford replaced a couple of cars in the late 70's but they did it
    >>> kicking and screaming and only when their legal team told them they
    >>> couldn't win in court, the cost of replacing the cars was a fraction of
    >>> the cost of fighting the customer yet they chose to fight anyway which
    >>> makes no sense at all to me.

    >>
    >> It happens all the time, and insurance companies rule the roost at it.
    >> They'll think *nothing* of spending a hundred grand in court to avoid
    >> paying you 5 thousand bucks if they think you're trying to fleece them.
    >> It's a mentality that doesn't strike me as particularly smart, but that's
    >> the way it is.
    >>

    >
    > Are you suggesting that they should let people fleece them?


    As opposed to them fleecing the customer?


    --
    Daryl

  8. #48
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 2:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "Clocky" <notgonn@happen.com> wrote in message
    > news:5252ad0c$0$29885$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraw eb.com...
    >>
    >> "Blue Heeler" <woof@bark.org> wrote in message
    >> news:bbesq5FabivU1@mid.individual.net...
    >>> Clocky wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> Clocky alluded to a subsequent court case in which the owner did not
    >>>>> fare well.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Did I?
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Apparently not.
    >>>
    >>> However i assure you i wasn't planning on taking issue woht you, I am
    >>> genuinely interested given my own knowledge about the Nth QLD matter.
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I do have a vague recollection of a Commodore breaking in half and
    >>>> this topic being discussed many years ago I'll see what I can find.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Yes, and were it not for the half remembered other matter I would have
    >>> put it down to pub talk, a transmogrification of the Rekord that bropke
    >>> in half during testing, thereby proving why testing is necessary.
    >>>
    >>> If you do find anything, please post.
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >> Nothing on a VH, but there was this, but a near new VK...
    >>
    >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>
    >> Alludes to a few things being discussed in here at the moment.
    >>
    >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>
    >> VL this time.
    >>
    >> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>
    >> I'll have another look tomorrow.
    >>

    >
    > Here it is:
    >
    > http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...47?zoomLevel=3
    >
    > The follow up reports then:
    > http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    > http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    > http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    After a brief look at those photos God himself couldn't convince me that
    there wasn't a design or production fault with that car.
    Even if the impact was at 200kph it still shouldn't break in half.

    --
    Daryl

  9. #49
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 7:04 AM, Blue Heeler wrote:
    > Clocky wrote:
    >
    >> Or the impact was in fact not minor at all and the speculative pub
    >> talk turned it into something it wasn't. As I said, it's too
    >> speculative to know.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Thank you for the articles on the VK. An impact delivered to an unusual
    > area resulting in quite unexpected results. Althought the holden
    > engineers may have been a bit "ambitious" in their estimate of the
    > impact speed.
    >
    > And i agree, "one swallow does not a summer make'.
    >

    It surely doesn't but no way that car should have broken in half, the
    other car would have absorbed some of the impact and the driver claimed
    she had braked from 80kph so the impact speed would have been a lot
    lower than GMH claimed.
    Funnily enough I hit the side of a Mazda with my VK Commodore at about
    60kph, every panel forward of the windscreen was severely damaged but
    the Mazda didn't break in half, I hit it hard enough for the passenger
    side B pillar to hit the drivers arm so it was a decent impact.
    BTW just to keep Clocky happy I've seen Falcons broken in half after
    impacts with trees or light poles but those impacts were at very high
    speeds:-)

    --
    Daryl

  10. #50
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 9:22 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    > news:l2v8bk$a77$1@dont-email.me...
    >> On 08/10/13 2:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>
    >>> Here it is:
    >>>
    >>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...47?zoomLevel=3
    >>>
    >>> The follow up reports then:
    >>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=

    >>
    >> That looks to be it, thank you. It was indeed a VK after all. I always
    >> thought it was a VH.
    >>
    >> Now, if you look at the photos of both cars you can tell that (a) it was
    >> *NOT* a high speed collision,

    >
    > You can't tell that at all, it looks to me in the vicinity of later reports.
    >
    > (b) the damage to the Commodore is
    >> *severe* and out of character to the damage of the Mazda, and (c) the car
    >> came apart very cleanly.
    >>

    >
    > Because it hit at an unusual angle which had the effect of shearing the
    > Commodore. Looks to me that the rear axle was hit with such force and angle
    > that it was torn away from the rest of the vehicle. No indication of a minor
    > accident, looks to me to be rather major.


    The Mazda which where known for being flimsy at best looks to be
    repairable, the driver claimed she was braking from 80kph, a side on
    impact of 70kph whilst still significant shouldn't be enough to split
    any car in half.
    >
    >> Observe the left hand wheel arch, floor section and
    >> rear beaver panel join which all look like they've been cleanly cut away
    >> from the rest of the back of the car, and the C pillar join on the broken
    >> off section which appears to have a clean break?
    >>
    >> I can tell you right now as sure as I'm sitting here that that is *not*
    >> normal accident damage.
    >>

    >
    > The circumstances of the accident were unique (the angle of impact and one
    > vehicle hooking the other at speed), the damage looks odd because of it and
    > whilst it appears to be unusual but subsequent investigations by engineers
    > seems to dismiss the poor weld and compromised structural integrity theory.
    >
    > It was a rental car, so why the owner took on Holden who got the all-clear
    > is rather suspiciously like a pub tale as I can't find any reference to a
    > court case.


    That does sound odd, maybe the rental co was suing them for the cost of
    the car when the insurance co rejected their claim?



    --
    Daryl

  11. #51
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 2:06 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > It certainly isn't specific to any car company but I think they would
    > set a better precedent by actually admitting that occasionally they make
    > a lemon and just replace them.


    I don't know if that would be policy I'd like to implement if I was CEO
    of a large corporation. I'd have no problem with replacing people's cars
    in *private*, but announcing that I was prepared to do so would be like
    announcing that you were giving away free cash.

    > The lemon Mazda I bought in 1984 is a good example, after the way I was
    > treated by Mazda and the dealer I would never own another and I go out
    > of my way to let people know what I feel about Mazda and I have
    > persuaded a few people not to buy Mazda's but if they had done the right
    > thing and not ****ed me around I wouldn't be complaining but now I will
    > continue to bad mouth them till the day I die.


    As is your right.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  12. #52
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 1:57 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > I'm sure you are right but IMO it shows that they are actually
    > interested in making their cars safer and the US companies could learn a
    > lot from them.


    As someone else mentioned, I think buying back cars crashed in the real
    world is cheaper than crash testing new ones.





    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  13. #53
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 9:39 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    > news:l2v7ih$56c$2@dont-email.me...
    >> On 08/10/13 2:26 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>
    >>> The spot welds were fine and the collision wasn't minor is my bet.

    >>
    >> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest :)
    >>

    >
    > Do you disbelieve all the investigations as being bullshit?
    >
    >>> Are you suggesting that they should let people fleece them?

    >>
    >> Not at all. I'm saying that they'll go out of their way to spend a dollar
    >> to avoid losing 2 cents.
    >>

    >
    > Not if a precedent is set to let every arsehole fleece them obviously.


    More likely that car companies will fleece their customers, they have
    been doing it for a very long time and they are very good at it.
    There will always be crooks who will try and do the wrong thing on both
    sides but the car companies paranoia about being fleeced is unfounded.
    In the US they have lemon laws and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't
    get them in the not to distant future.

    --
    Daryl

  14. #54
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 2:12 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > After a brief look at those photos God himself couldn't convince me that
    > there wasn't a design or production fault with that car.
    > Even if the impact was at 200kph it still shouldn't break in half.


    Exactly. Especially when you look at the damage on the Mazda which is
    extraordinarily light considering that the Commodore was ripped clean in
    half.

    I think the argument of "extenuating circumstances" in that the
    Commodore was hit at an unusual angle resulting in unexpected damage is
    complete bullshit. It looks like the Commy was hit right in the drivers
    side rear wheel and that ripped the back clean off the car. Not only
    taking the differential with it, but looking like the differential
    wasn't even knocked out of alignment :)

    Of course Clocky is right in that this is all speculative, and without
    having seen the car personally it's impossible to say exactly what
    caused the thing to break apart like it did. However I'm inclined to
    think that it was a production "one-off" in that the robotic welders
    were having a slack day and no one noticed, and that theory is supported
    somewhat by the ACC expert who declared that the spot welds were inferior.

    What you can *clearly* tell just by looking at the photo was that is
    definitely wasn't a severe collision nor did it involve high speed as
    Holden ridiculously claimed.





    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  15. #55
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 2:24 PM, Noddy wrote:
    > On 08/10/13 2:06 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> It certainly isn't specific to any car company but I think they would
    >> set a better precedent by actually admitting that occasionally they make
    >> a lemon and just replace them.

    >
    > I don't know if that would be policy I'd like to implement if I was CEO
    > of a large corporation. I'd have no problem with replacing people's cars
    > in *private*, but announcing that I was prepared to do so would be like
    > announcing that you were giving away free cash.


    You would need very good reasons for your car to be replaced so it
    wouldn't be a free for all, I don't know how many cars are replaced
    under the US lemon laws but I doubt there would be many.



    --
    Daryl

  16. #56
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 2:34 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > More likely that car companies will fleece their customers, they have
    > been doing it for a very long time and they are very good at it.
    > There will always be crooks who will try and do the wrong thing on both
    > sides but the car companies paranoia about being fleeced is unfounded.
    > In the US they have lemon laws and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't
    > get them in the not to distant future.


    Hopefully, as they're *way* overdue.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  17. #57
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 2:20 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > It surely doesn't but no way that car should have broken in half, the
    > other car would have absorbed some of the impact and the driver claimed
    > she had braked from 80kph so the impact speed would have been a lot
    > lower than GMH claimed.


    Quite significantly so :)

    GMH claimed 140km/h. The old Mazda would have struggled to get there,
    and if it *had* hit at that speed it would have been obliterated.

    Fortunately for Holden it didn't, as parts of the Commodore would have
    been found in Uzbekistan if it did :)

    > Funnily enough I hit the side of a Mazda with my VK Commodore at about
    > 60kph, every panel forward of the windscreen was severely damaged but
    > the Mazda didn't break in half, I hit it hard enough for the passenger
    > side B pillar to hit the drivers arm so it was a decent impact.
    > BTW just to keep Clocky happy I've seen Falcons broken in half after
    > impacts with trees or light poles but those impacts were at very high
    > speeds:-)


    I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks
    (along with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two
    pieces (or more) that separated so cleanly. Such separations are always
    a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.





    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  18. #58
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 2:30 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > The Mazda which where known for being flimsy at best looks to be
    > repairable, the driver claimed she was braking from 80kph, a side on
    > impact of 70kph whilst still significant shouldn't be enough to split
    > any car in half.


    Absolutely, and the claim of the angle being unusual is rubbish in my
    view. It was a glancing hit. Bit deal. If that's all it took to break
    the car in half then they should have been deemed unfit for road use and
    banned immediately.

    > That does sound odd, maybe the rental co was suing them for the cost of
    > the car when the insurance co rejected their claim?


    I don't think so. I think I had the court case stuff mixed up with this
    case as I remember the claims of the court action being brought about by
    an individual rather than a company. I'm assuming that this story of the
    VK is the one I read about years ago, as even though I always thought it
    was a VH it's highly unlikely that there were ever two of them that
    broke up so easily.





    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  19. #59
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:52537d5b$0$2769$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    > On 08/10/2013 9:39 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >> news:l2v7ih$56c$2@dont-email.me...
    >>> On 08/10/13 2:26 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> The spot welds were fine and the collision wasn't minor is my bet.
    >>>
    >>> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest :)
    >>>

    >>
    >> Do you disbelieve all the investigations as being bullshit?
    >>
    >>>> Are you suggesting that they should let people fleece them?
    >>>
    >>> Not at all. I'm saying that they'll go out of their way to spend a
    >>> dollar
    >>> to avoid losing 2 cents.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Not if a precedent is set to let every arsehole fleece them obviously.

    >
    > More likely that car companies will fleece their customers, they have been
    > doing it for a very long time and they are very good at it.
    > There will always be crooks who will try and do the wrong thing on both
    > sides but the car companies paranoia about being fleeced is unfounded.
    > In the US they have lemon laws and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get
    > them in the not to distant future.
    >


    Long overdue IMO.




  20. #60
    Ext User(jonz) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 10/8/2013 6:27 PM, Noddy wrote:
    > On 08/10/13 2:20 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> It surely doesn't but no way that car should have broken in half, the
    >> other car would have absorbed some of the impact and the driver claimed
    >> she had braked from 80kph so the impact speed would have been a lot
    >> lower than GMH claimed.

    >
    > Quite significantly so :)
    >
    > GMH claimed 140km/h. The old Mazda would have struggled to get there,
    > and if it *had* hit at that speed it would have been obliterated.
    >
    > Fortunately for Holden it didn't, as parts of the Commodore would have
    > been found in Uzbekistan if it did :)
    >
    >> Funnily enough I hit the side of a Mazda with my VK Commodore at about
    >> 60kph, every panel forward of the windscreen was severely damaged but
    >> the Mazda didn't break in half, I hit it hard enough for the passenger
    >> side B pillar to hit the drivers arm so it was a decent impact.
    >> BTW just to keep Clocky happy I've seen Falcons broken in half after
    >> impacts with trees or light poles but those impacts were at very high
    >> speeds:-)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
    "Funnily enough" indeed. whodathunkit.........




    >
    > I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks
    > (along with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two
    > pieces (or more) that separated so cleanly. Such separations are always
    > a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    > mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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