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Thread: VH Commodre broke in half

  1. #61
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/13 3:54 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > You would need very good reasons for your car to be replaced so it
    > wouldn't be a free for all, I don't know how many cars are replaced
    > under the US lemon laws but I doubt there would be many.


    That wouldn't stop thousands of people from applying though, which would
    drive you nuts.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  2. #62
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 6:21 PM, Noddy wrote:
    > On 08/10/13 3:54 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> You would need very good reasons for your car to be replaced so it
    >> wouldn't be a free for all, I don't know how many cars are replaced
    >> under the US lemon laws but I doubt there would be many.

    >
    > That wouldn't stop thousands of people from applying though, which would
    > drive you nuts.
    >
    >
    >

    Very possible but it shouldn't be a big issue if the law was clear and
    there was a set procedure.
    If they made cars without lots of faults there would be no reason for
    anyone to drive them nuts.

    --
    Daryl

  3. #63
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 08/10/2013 7:05 PM, Clocky wrote:
    > "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    > news:52537d5b$0$2769$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >> On 08/10/2013 9:39 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >>> news:l2v7ih$56c$2@dont-email.me...
    >>>> On 08/10/13 2:26 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> The spot welds were fine and the collision wasn't minor is my bet.
    >>>>
    >>>> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest :)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Do you disbelieve all the investigations as being bullshit?
    >>>
    >>>>> Are you suggesting that they should let people fleece them?
    >>>>
    >>>> Not at all. I'm saying that they'll go out of their way to spend a
    >>>> dollar
    >>>> to avoid losing 2 cents.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Not if a precedent is set to let every arsehole fleece them obviously.

    >>
    >> More likely that car companies will fleece their customers, they have been
    >> doing it for a very long time and they are very good at it.
    >> There will always be crooks who will try and do the wrong thing on both
    >> sides but the car companies paranoia about being fleeced is unfounded.
    >> In the US they have lemon laws and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get
    >> them in the not to distant future.
    >>

    >
    > Long overdue IMO.
    >
    >
    >

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ars-30107.html
    According to the article approx 150,000 cars in the US are "lemons",
    sounds a lot but its only 1% of total production, it doesn't say if they
    are actually replaced but its possible.

    --
    Daryl

  4. #64
    Ext User() Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 3:27:59 PM UTC+8, Noddy wrote:
    >
    > I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks
    >
    > (along with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two
    >
    > pieces (or more) that separated so cleanly. Such separations are always
    >
    > a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    >
    > mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.
    >


    Check out this:
    http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/tw...220-1p2xj.html
    Well it was a mess, but interesting how one side of a Dunnydore sliced off
    rather more cleanly than the other crumpled bits.

  5. #65
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    news:l30c62$2fd$1@dont-email.me...
    > On 08/10/13 2:20 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> It surely doesn't but no way that car should have broken in half, the
    >> other car would have absorbed some of the impact and the driver claimed
    >> she had braked from 80kph so the impact speed would have been a lot
    >> lower than GMH claimed.

    >
    > Quite significantly so :)
    >
    > GMH claimed 140km/h. The old Mazda would have struggled to get there, and
    > if it *had* hit at that speed it would have been obliterated.
    >
    > Fortunately for Holden it didn't, as parts of the Commodore would have
    > been found in Uzbekistan if it did :)
    >
    >> Funnily enough I hit the side of a Mazda with my VK Commodore at about
    >> 60kph, every panel forward of the windscreen was severely damaged but
    >> the Mazda didn't break in half, I hit it hard enough for the passenger
    >> side B pillar to hit the drivers arm so it was a decent impact.
    >> BTW just to keep Clocky happy I've seen Falcons broken in half after
    >> impacts with trees or light poles but those impacts were at very high
    >> speeds:-)

    >
    > I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks (along
    > with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two pieces (or
    > more) that separated so cleanly.



    Such separations are always
    > a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    > mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.
    >


    That's why they have proper investigations with real evidence that show
    otherwiseand don't go by the reckonings of towies looking at grainy black
    and white newspaper print photos.



  6. #66
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:5253c65b$0$11102$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
    > On 08/10/2013 7:05 PM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    >> news:52537d5b$0$2769$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >>> On 08/10/2013 9:39 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >>>> news:l2v7ih$56c$2@dont-email.me...
    >>>>> On 08/10/13 2:26 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> The spot welds were fine and the collision wasn't minor is my bet.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest :)
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Do you disbelieve all the investigations as being bullshit?
    >>>>
    >>>>>> Are you suggesting that they should let people fleece them?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Not at all. I'm saying that they'll go out of their way to spend a
    >>>>> dollar
    >>>>> to avoid losing 2 cents.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Not if a precedent is set to let every arsehole fleece them obviously.
    >>>
    >>> More likely that car companies will fleece their customers, they have
    >>> been
    >>> doing it for a very long time and they are very good at it.
    >>> There will always be crooks who will try and do the wrong thing on both
    >>> sides but the car companies paranoia about being fleeced is unfounded.
    >>> In the US they have lemon laws and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't
    >>> get
    >>> them in the not to distant future.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Long overdue IMO.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ars-30107.html
    > According to the article approx 150,000 cars in the US are "lemons",
    > sounds a lot but its only 1% of total production, it doesn't say if they
    > are actually replaced but its possible.
    >


    Sounds about right. True lemons don't come along all that often.

    There should be a cooling off period on signed contracts too as trusting
    people are duped by professional salesman and their tactics into buying a
    car they weren't looking for and/or at the wrong price.

    Dunno if other states have them, but WA doesn't have a cooling off period on
    motor vehicle sales contracts.



  7. #67
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 9:38 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    > news:5253c65b$0$11102$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
    >> On 08/10/2013 7:05 PM, Clocky wrote:
    >>> "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    >>> news:52537d5b$0$2769$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >>>> On 08/10/2013 9:39 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:l2v7ih$56c$2@dont-email.me...
    >>>>>> On 08/10/13 2:26 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The spot welds were fine and the collision wasn't minor is my bet.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest :)
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Do you disbelieve all the investigations as being bullshit?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>> Are you suggesting that they should let people fleece them?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Not at all. I'm saying that they'll go out of their way to spend a
    >>>>>> dollar
    >>>>>> to avoid losing 2 cents.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Not if a precedent is set to let every arsehole fleece them obviously.
    >>>>
    >>>> More likely that car companies will fleece their customers, they have
    >>>> been
    >>>> doing it for a very long time and they are very good at it.
    >>>> There will always be crooks who will try and do the wrong thing on both
    >>>> sides but the car companies paranoia about being fleeced is unfounded.
    >>>> In the US they have lemon laws and I wouldn't be surprised if we don't
    >>>> get
    >>>> them in the not to distant future.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Long overdue IMO.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >> http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ars-30107.html
    >> According to the article approx 150,000 cars in the US are "lemons",
    >> sounds a lot but its only 1% of total production, it doesn't say if they
    >> are actually replaced but its possible.
    >>

    >
    > Sounds about right. True lemons don't come along all that often.
    >
    > There should be a cooling off period on signed contracts too as trusting
    > people are duped by professional salesman and their tactics into buying a
    > car they weren't looking for and/or at the wrong price.
    >
    > Dunno if other states have them, but WA doesn't have a cooling off period on
    > motor vehicle sales contracts.
    >
    >

    AFAIK its 7days in Vic.

    --
    Daryl

  8. #68
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 9:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    > news:l30c62$2fd$1@dont-email.me...
    >> On 08/10/13 2:20 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>
    >>> It surely doesn't but no way that car should have broken in half, the
    >>> other car would have absorbed some of the impact and the driver claimed
    >>> she had braked from 80kph so the impact speed would have been a lot
    >>> lower than GMH claimed.

    >>
    >> Quite significantly so :)
    >>
    >> GMH claimed 140km/h. The old Mazda would have struggled to get there, and
    >> if it *had* hit at that speed it would have been obliterated.
    >>
    >> Fortunately for Holden it didn't, as parts of the Commodore would have
    >> been found in Uzbekistan if it did :)
    >>
    >>> Funnily enough I hit the side of a Mazda with my VK Commodore at about
    >>> 60kph, every panel forward of the windscreen was severely damaged but
    >>> the Mazda didn't break in half, I hit it hard enough for the passenger
    >>> side B pillar to hit the drivers arm so it was a decent impact.
    >>> BTW just to keep Clocky happy I've seen Falcons broken in half after
    >>> impacts with trees or light poles but those impacts were at very high
    >>> speeds:-)

    >>
    >> I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks (along
    >> with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two pieces (or
    >> more) that separated so cleanly.

    >
    >
    > Such separations are always
    >> a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    >> mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.
    >>

    >
    > That's why they have proper investigations with real evidence that show
    > otherwiseand don't go by the reckonings of towies looking at grainy black
    > and white newspaper print photos.
    >
    >

    "Proper" investigations by who though?
    If a scientific investigation was carried out by the Police or some
    other Govt body with the necessary skills I would accept it but I would
    take any investigation by people with vested interest such as the
    manufacturer or an insurance co with a large grain of salt.
    A person doesn't need to know all that much about cars to know that the
    damage to that car wasn't normal.

    --
    Daryl

  9. #69
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    <116e32s@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:91f23e2a-5270-4896-bb03-393e5065c10b@googlegroups.com...
    > On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 3:27:59 PM UTC+8, Noddy wrote:
    >>
    >> I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks
    >>
    >> (along with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two
    >>
    >> pieces (or more) that separated so cleanly. Such separations are always
    >>
    >> a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    >>
    >> mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.
    >>

    >
    > Check out this:
    > http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/tw...220-1p2xj.html
    > Well it was a mess, but interesting how one side of a Dunnydore sliced off
    > rather more cleanly than the other crumpled bits.


    Yeah, looks strange how that one side is almost entirely intact whilst the
    rest of it was torn away from it. Every accident is different and a photo
    can't be used to determine any inherent structural problem before the
    accident (well, not unless you're a FIGJAM that is)

    Seems to me that the sort of shearing away of the rear section isn't even
    uncommon either. First link looks to be the closest the the VK crash in
    terms of the van having relatively slight damage and the sedan being sliced
    in half. Clearly shows the angle of impact is a significant factor, and that
    looks to me to be the case with the VK as well.
    If you hit behind the pillar and collect the rear wheel there is a good
    chance it's going to shear the rear section of the car off with it. I found
    some other links of other cars, and whilst every circumstance of the crash
    is different it does show that tearing a car in half in a relatively clean
    manner isn't all that rare.

    http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/39935-...-car-two.html\
    http://www.myssnews.com/news-telegra...us-injury.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ower-pole.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ash-VIDEO.html
    http://imgur.com/a/MsTdg
    http://i.imgur.com/hmrMLOD.jpg
    http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...-93576729.html
    http://www.ktvu.com/photo/news/local...n-colma/psZMF/
    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226218801947
    http://media.nbcchicago.com/images/6...2011085845.jpg
    http://flaglerlive.com/wp-content/uploads/wreck1.jpg


    And it goes on and on.



  10. #70
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    news:l2vtvp$bi6$2@dont-email.me...
    > On 08/10/13 1:57 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> I'm sure you are right but IMO it shows that they are actually
    >> interested in making their cars safer and the US companies could learn a
    >> lot from them.

    >
    > As someone else mentioned, I think buying back cars crashed in the real
    > world is cheaper than crash testing new ones.
    >


    Crash tests aren't real world tests and you can learn a lot more from actual
    accidents especially when accompanied with a full investigative report
    detailing the circumstances of the accident.

    Mercedes isn't in the habit of looking at grainy black and white photos to
    determine what is or isn't at fault, we will leave that for the towies and
    Friday night pub experts.




  11. #71
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:52537c47$0$2768$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    > On 08/10/2013 9:22 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >> news:l2v8bk$a77$1@dont-email.me...
    >>> On 08/10/13 2:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Here it is:
    >>>>
    >>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...47?zoomLevel=3
    >>>>
    >>>> The follow up reports then:
    >>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>
    >>> That looks to be it, thank you. It was indeed a VK after all. I always
    >>> thought it was a VH.
    >>>
    >>> Now, if you look at the photos of both cars you can tell that (a) it was
    >>> *NOT* a high speed collision,

    >>
    >> You can't tell that at all, it looks to me in the vicinity of later
    >> reports.
    >>
    >> (b) the damage to the Commodore is
    >>> *severe* and out of character to the damage of the Mazda, and (c) the
    >>> car
    >>> came apart very cleanly.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Because it hit at an unusual angle which had the effect of shearing the
    >> Commodore. Looks to me that the rear axle was hit with such force and
    >> angle
    >> that it was torn away from the rest of the vehicle. No indication of a
    >> minor
    >> accident, looks to me to be rather major.

    >
    > The Mazda which where known for being flimsy at best looks to be
    > repairable,


    The wheel pushed back 250mm same as in a 60km/h barrier test? I doubt that
    very much. The "looks" tell you nothing of the structural damage.

    the driver claimed she was braking from 80kph, a side on
    > impact of 70kph whilst still significant shouldn't be enough to split any
    > car in half.


    The determined 85-95km/h impact *is* a major impact in terms of impact
    force.

    Tell me, do you think two identical cars hitting head-on at 90km/h would
    cause more, less or the same damage to each one then one of the cars hitting
    a concrete barrier at 90km/h?

    >>
    >>> Observe the left hand wheel arch, floor section and
    >>> rear beaver panel join which all look like they've been cleanly cut away
    >>> from the rest of the back of the car, and the C pillar join on the
    >>> broken
    >>> off section which appears to have a clean break?
    >>>
    >>> I can tell you right now as sure as I'm sitting here that that is *not*
    >>> normal accident damage.
    >>>

    >>
    >> The circumstances of the accident were unique (the angle of impact and
    >> one
    >> vehicle hooking the other at speed), the damage looks odd because of it
    >> and
    >> whilst it appears to be unusual but subsequent investigations by
    >> engineers
    >> seems to dismiss the poor weld and compromised structural integrity
    >> theory.
    >>
    >> It was a rental car, so why the owner took on Holden who got the
    >> all-clear
    >> is rather suspiciously like a pub tale as I can't find any reference to
    >> a
    >> court case.

    >
    > That does sound odd, maybe the rental co was suing them for the cost of
    > the car when the insurance co rejected their claim?
    >


    They they had a problem with the rental company, not Holden, who were given
    the all clear.




  12. #72
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 11:01 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    > news:l2vtvp$bi6$2@dont-email.me...
    >> On 08/10/13 1:57 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>
    >>> I'm sure you are right but IMO it shows that they are actually
    >>> interested in making their cars safer and the US companies could learn a
    >>> lot from them.

    >>
    >> As someone else mentioned, I think buying back cars crashed in the real
    >> world is cheaper than crash testing new ones.
    >>

    >
    > Crash tests aren't real world tests and you can learn a lot more from actual
    > accidents especially when accompanied with a full investigative report
    > detailing the circumstances of the accident.


    Which only usually happens when the crash results in very serious
    injuries or a fatality, the the case with the VK no one was seriously
    injured so the police wouldn't have conducted a full investigation, in
    that case the only investigations were conducted by Holden and the
    insurance co who both have a vested interest in the result so IMO its
    unlikely either is unbiased.

    --
    Daryl

  13. #73
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    news:l30chv$49j$1@dont-email.me...
    > On 08/10/13 2:30 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> The Mazda which where known for being flimsy at best looks to be
    >> repairable, the driver claimed she was braking from 80kph, a side on
    >> impact of 70kph whilst still significant shouldn't be enough to split
    >> any car in half.

    >
    > Absolutely, and the claim of the angle being unusual is rubbish in my
    > view.


    You're not an engineer but you're entitled to your view.

    It was a glancing hit. Bit deal. If that's all it took to break
    > the car in half then they should have been deemed unfit for road use and
    > banned immediately.
    >


    Better stop driving then as it's hardly uncommon.

    >> That does sound odd, maybe the rental co was suing them for the cost of
    >> the car when the insurance co rejected their claim?

    >
    > I don't think so. I think I had the court case stuff mixed up with this
    > case as I remember the claims of the court action being brought about by
    > an individual rather than a company. I'm assuming that this story of the
    > VK is the one I read about years ago, as even though I always thought it
    > was a VH it's highly unlikely that there were ever two of them that broke
    > up so easily.
    >


    Your memory has failed you again.



  14. #74
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:525376ac$0$2898$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    > On 08/10/2013 2:20 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "atec77" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >> news:l2u7ob$vm2$1@dont-email.me...
    >>> On 7/10/2013 9:45 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>>> On 07/10/2013 10:26 PM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>> "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:52525227$0$2910$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >>>>>> On 07/10/2013 5:06 PM, Noddy wrote:
    >>>>>>> On 07/10/13 1:27 PM, Blue Heeler wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Well I doubt that the owner woul dhave ended up out of pocket. If
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> court decided that the vehicle was not defective, then the owner
    >>>>>>>> woul
    >>>>>>>> dhave been able to rely on his indemnity given by the insurer and
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> insurer would have had to pick up all the costs of the action, an
    >>>>>>>> action that came about because the insurer denied liability on the
    >>>>>>>> basis of defective design/manufacturing fault.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> A first year law studunet could have won that one for him providing
    >>>>>>>> your memory is accurate.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I remember what was printed in the paper at the time, but don't know
    >>>>>>> any
    >>>>>>> more about it than that other than a few people who saw the photos
    >>>>>>> of
    >>>>>>> the damaged car all agreeing that it had a major structural failure
    >>>>>>> in a
    >>>>>>> way that was totally inconsistent with the amount of damage on the
    >>>>>>> other
    >>>>>>> car (which I think was something like a Toyota Corolla that clipped
    >>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>> rear of the Commodore and got a bent bumper bar for it's trouble).
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> BUT
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I really would like more info, you see I have a little more info
    >>>>>>>> from
    >>>>>>>> another source.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Cool.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> A Wrecker near Proserpine in North QLD used to have a big sign on
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> highway (around the time of the VH commodore) to the effect that
    >>>>>>>> for
    >>>>>>>> $3,500 he would structurally reinforce your defective and dangerous
    >>>>>>>> Commodore so that it actually met Australian design rules and was
    >>>>>>>> safe
    >>>>>>>> to drive.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Wow. I wonder if GMH ever took issue with that?.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Oh. I see they did :)
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> In the fullness of time, holden contacted him and requested him to
    >>>>>>>> cease, desist and remove his sign.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Holden got told to GFY.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Holden sued and mid trial when things were apparently going bad for
    >>>>>>>> them, made a settlement offer to wrecker. Such things are usually
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> subject of confidentiality, all I know is that the wrecker closed
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> doors, literally closed the doors and the wrecking yard became more
    >>>>>>>> and
    >>>>>>>> more overgrown until sold a few years back. The former wrecker
    >>>>>>>> apparently moved to Shute Harbour and spent a lot of time onboard
    >>>>>>>> his
    >>>>>>>> very new, and very big, game boat.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Interesting.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I'd love to know more, but when I contacted the law firm I was told
    >>>>>>>> was
    >>>>>>>> involved involved, the partner who handled had since retired and
    >>>>>>>> lost
    >>>>>>>> his marbles, nobody else there remembered anything general about
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> matter and due to the confidentiality agreement wouldn't look at
    >>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>> files to tell me more.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Bugger.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> What I remember at the time was that talk of this particular case
    >>>>>>> was
    >>>>>>> all over the repair industry down here, and particularly amongst
    >>>>>>> panel
    >>>>>>> beaters who seemed to be of the opinion at the time that the Dunny
    >>>>>>> had
    >>>>>>> some failings. When I mentioned earlier that a couple of people
    >>>>>>> looked
    >>>>>>> at the photos with me one of them owned one of the biggest panel
    >>>>>>> shops
    >>>>>>> in Melbourne at the time and was well positioned to tell if the car
    >>>>>>> was
    >>>>>>> damaged in a way that would be reasonably expected given the type of
    >>>>>>> accident it was involved with and his opinion was most definitely
    >>>>>>> not.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The give away in his opinion (and that of many others apparently),
    >>>>>>> was
    >>>>>>> not only the lack of any substantial damage to the other car
    >>>>>>> involved,
    >>>>>>> but the clean "break" line in the Commodore. As I said earlier, the
    >>>>>>> thing came apart looking like it had been carefully cut along a
    >>>>>>> particular line.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>> Sounds like a row or several rows of spot welds were missing which
    >>>>>> can
    >>>>>> easily happen if a machine breaks down on the production line but the
    >>>>>> body
    >>>>>> shouldn't get past QC.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I dare say that if it was that bad you would notice the flex.
    >>>>
    >>>> Maybe but if it was very new it wasn't on the road long enough for it
    >>>> to
    >>>> show up.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> If it was that simple I can't imagine Holden denying that it was
    >>>>>> production fault, if I was in charge at Holden I would have given the
    >>>>>> owner a new car and bought the wreck so the engineers could find out
    >>>>>> why
    >>>>>> it happened and make sure it didn't happen again.
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Not necessarily, I haven't had any direct dealing with Holden but like
    >>>> Ford they are an American company and they (American companies) have a
    >>>> rather odd attitude to such things, they would rather spend mega bucks
    >>>> on lawyers than admit they made a faulty product which might have
    >>>> something to do with US consumer laws.
    >>>> I know Ford replaced a couple of cars in the late 70's but they did it
    >>>> kicking and screaming and only when their legal team told them they
    >>>> couldn't win in court, the cost of replacing the cars was a fraction of
    >>>> the cost of fighting the customer yet they chose to fight anyway which
    >>>> makes no sense at all to me.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> in a word , precedent
    >>>

    >>
    >> Yep, and all manufacturers would protect themselves in a similar fashion.
    >> Anyone who thinks it's Holden specific is spending too much time with
    >> Mrs.
    >> Palmer and her 5 daughters.
    >>
    >>

    > It certainly isn't specific to any car company but I think they would set
    > a better precedent by actually admitting that occasionally they make a
    > lemon and just replace them.


    No arguement there. When I was working for Holden I do know of one car they
    took back but the customer only had the option of accepting a replacement
    vehicle from memory.
    That was for a car with an intermittent cutting out problem where everything
    was replaced. The fault was so unique that engineers were flown in to have a
    look at this thing before determining it was best to take it back for
    further assessment.
    It doesn't happen too often, but then true lemons aren't that common either.

    > The lemon Mazda I bought in 1984 is a good example, after the way I was
    > treated by Mazda and the dealer I would never own another and I go out of
    > my way to let people know what I feel about Mazda and I have persuaded a
    > few people not to buy Mazda's but if they had done the right thing and not
    > ****ed me around I wouldn't be complaining but now I will continue to bad
    > mouth them till the day I die.
    >


    It doesn't seem to have affected their sales too much ;-)




  15. #75
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:5253c418$0$29872$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraw eb.com...
    > On 08/10/2013 6:21 PM, Noddy wrote:
    >> On 08/10/13 3:54 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>
    >>> You would need very good reasons for your car to be replaced so it
    >>> wouldn't be a free for all, I don't know how many cars are replaced
    >>> under the US lemon laws but I doubt there would be many.

    >>
    >> That wouldn't stop thousands of people from applying though, which would
    >> drive you nuts.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > Very possible but it shouldn't be a big issue if the law was clear and
    > there was a set procedure.
    > If they made cars without lots of faults there would be no reason for
    > anyone to drive them nuts.
    >



    One persons idea of a lemon isn't the same as another persons idea of a
    lemon.

    I've known people to dismiss cars as lemons just because of a couple of
    minor warranty issues. This usually happens when they were shafted on the
    deal and are looking to get back at the manufacturer/dealer any way they
    can.







  16. #76
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 11:40 AM, Clocky wrote:

    > The wheel pushed back 250mm same as in a 60km/h barrier test? I doubt that
    > very much. The "looks" tell you nothing of the structural damage.


    That's Holden's assertion, and the looks tell you everything. Bear in
    mind that this is a *1970's* Mazda. Not one built in 2010.

    > The determined 85-95km/h impact *is* a major impact in terms of impact
    > force.


    Determined by whom?

    Either way the speed in this case is largely irrelevant. It's the amount
    of damage sustained by *both* vehicles which is the important point, and
    in this case the damage sustained by the Commodore is totally
    inconsistent with the amount of damage on the Mazda.

    > Tell me, do you think two identical cars hitting head-on at 90km/h would
    > cause more, less or the same damage to each one then one of the cars hitting
    > a concrete barrier at 90km/h?


    I'm not speaking for Daryl, but in my opinion the outcome would depend
    entirely on how accurately you were able to measure the extent of the
    damage. It could be argued that the damage would roughly be the same as
    while two cars crashing into each other have twice the inertia they also
    have twice the impact absorbing effect of the bodywork. On the other
    hand the single car into the concrete wall would only have half the
    inertia but half the impact absorbing effect. Either way there would
    always be differences in the outcomes given the differences in the
    physical composition of the objects themselves.

    The more important point is in what way is this question even *remotely*
    relevant to the topic at hand?

    > They they had a problem with the rental company, not Holden, who were given
    > the all clear.


    Go back and read the comments. The rental company considered it a
    "Holden problem".




    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  17. #77
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 12:20 PM, Clocky wrote:

    > It doesn't happen too often, but then true lemons aren't that common either.


    That's a big call. I've seen more than a few cars that have had multiple
    repairs for the same problem over the course of their warranty period
    and I would consider those to be lemons.




    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  18. #78
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 12:31 PM, Clocky wrote:

    > One persons idea of a lemon isn't the same as another persons idea of a
    > lemon.


    Indeed, and the idea would never fly specifically because the people who
    consider their cars to be lemons would be the disgruntled owners,
    whereas the people who considered them *not* to be would be those who
    were in a position to judge them as such.

    > I've known people to dismiss cars as lemons just because of a couple of
    > minor warranty issues. This usually happens when they were shafted on the
    > deal and are looking to get back at the manufacturer/dealer any way they
    > can.


    No doubt.

    The law needs to be clearly defined to allow for minor one-offs but at
    the same time prevent people from being lumbered with a ****ing great dud.

    I don't think it's unreasonable for a new car to be delivered in a fault
    free state. I mean, they *are* supposed to be tested before they're
    passed on to the selling dealer and there should not be anything wrong
    with the vehicle at the time of delivery. However, it is *unreasonable*
    to expect every car to be perfect every single time. Even the most
    conscientious manufacturer may have a problem that is beyond their control.

    To that end I think a three strikes policy should be adopted whereby
    manufacturers are given a maximum three opportunities to correct an
    individual problem within a reasonable time frame, and if they can't
    manage that then they should then be compelled by law to either offer
    the customer a replacement vehicle or a full refund at the customer's
    choice.

    I think such a policy should last for the length of the warranty period,
    and that it not be on a pro rata basis. If you offer a 5 year warranty
    on a new car, then you should be subject to the refund/replacement law
    for the full term of the warranty at the full original value.

    It won't ever happen, as manufacturers would scream blue murder, but if
    it was imposed tomorrow you'd see the quality of cars improve virtually
    overnight like they did in the US.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  19. #79
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:525493ab$0$29977$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraw eb.com...
    > On 09/10/2013 9:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >> news:l30c62$2fd$1@dont-email.me...
    >>> On 08/10/13 2:20 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> It surely doesn't but no way that car should have broken in half, the
    >>>> other car would have absorbed some of the impact and the driver claimed
    >>>> she had braked from 80kph so the impact speed would have been a lot
    >>>> lower than GMH claimed.
    >>>
    >>> Quite significantly so :)
    >>>
    >>> GMH claimed 140km/h. The old Mazda would have struggled to get there,
    >>> and
    >>> if it *had* hit at that speed it would have been obliterated.
    >>>
    >>> Fortunately for Holden it didn't, as parts of the Commodore would have
    >>> been found in Uzbekistan if it did :)
    >>>
    >>>> Funnily enough I hit the side of a Mazda with my VK Commodore at about
    >>>> 60kph, every panel forward of the windscreen was severely damaged but
    >>>> the Mazda didn't break in half, I hit it hard enough for the passenger
    >>>> side B pillar to hit the drivers arm so it was a decent impact.
    >>>> BTW just to keep Clocky happy I've seen Falcons broken in half after
    >>>> impacts with trees or light poles but those impacts were at very high
    >>>> speeds:-)
    >>>
    >>> I got to see a few cars broken in half back when I drove tow trucks
    >>> (along
    >>> with their occupants), and what you never saw was a car in two pieces
    >>> (or
    >>> more) that separated so cleanly.

    >>
    >>
    >> Such separations are always
    >>> a violent destructive mess, and there is not the slightest doubt in my
    >>> mind that the Commodore in question suffered a major structural failure.
    >>>

    >>
    >> That's why they have proper investigations with real evidence that show
    >> otherwiseand don't go by the reckonings of towies looking at grainy black
    >> and white newspaper print photos.
    >>
    >>

    > "Proper" investigations by who though?


    Did you bother to read the articles?



    > If a scientific investigation was carried out by the Police or some other
    > Govt body with the necessary skills I would accept it


    It was.

    but I would
    > take any investigation by people with vested interest such as the
    > manufacturer or an insurance co with a large grain of salt.
    > A person doesn't need to know all that much about cars to know that the
    > damage to that car wasn't normal.
    >
    > --
    > Daryl




  20. #80
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 11:01 AM, Clocky wrote:

    > Crash tests aren't real world tests and you can learn a lot more from actual
    > accidents especially when accompanied with a full investigative report
    > detailing the circumstances of the accident.


    Well, you can, but at most it will be along the lines of "this is what
    is likely to happen in any situation where this particular set of
    circumstances are in play", and those particular circumstances won't be
    relevant to other accidents.

    Crash testing of cars into immovable solid objects under controlled
    conditions doesn't give an accurate idea of the safety of a particular
    vehicle in a real world environment. It gives an idea of the safety of a
    vehicle relative to *other* vehicles that have been subjected to the
    same test.

    > Mercedes isn't in the habit of looking at grainy black and white photos to
    > determine what is or isn't at fault, we will leave that for the towies and
    > Friday night pub experts.


    Just as well, because if you do you're likely to get a better idea than
    some ****ing idiot "engineer" on a government funded research grant
    looking at a spot weld and trying to tell if it failed.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

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