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Thread: VH Commodre broke in half

  1. #81
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 11:01 AM, Clocky wrote:

    > Crash tests aren't real world tests and you can learn a lot more from actual
    > accidents especially when accompanied with a full investigative report
    > detailing the circumstances of the accident.


    Well, you can, but at most it will be along the lines of "this is what
    is likely to happen in any situation where this particular set of
    circumstances are in play", and those particular circumstances won't be
    relevant to other accidents.

    Crash testing of cars into immovable solid objects under controlled
    conditions doesn't give an accurate idea of the safety of a particular
    vehicle in a real world environment. It gives an idea of the safety of a
    vehicle relative to *other* vehicles that have been subjected to the
    same test.

    > Mercedes isn't in the habit of looking at grainy black and white photos to
    > determine what is or isn't at fault, we will leave that for the towies and
    > Friday night pub experts.


    Just as well, because if you do you're likely to get a better idea than
    some ****ing idiot "engineer" on a government funded research grant
    looking at a spot weld and trying to tell if it failed.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  2. #82
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 9:46 AM, Clocky wrote:

    > That's why they have proper investigations with real evidence that show
    > otherwiseand don't go by the reckonings of towies looking at grainy black
    > and white newspaper print photos.


    What proper investigation? did you actually get to *read* the report or
    is the newspaper claiming that the findings exonerated the car simply
    good enough?

    Both the police who attended the accident scene and the chairman of the
    body division of the Automobile Chamber of Commerce claimed that they'd
    never seen anything like it, and the Chairman of the ACC after
    inspecting the wreckage went on to say that the quality of the welding
    was inferior and apart from a broken pillar the majority of the damage
    was from failed welds.

    Yet the report from the Department of Transport that was set up by the
    then transport minister cleared the car completely.

    I find it odd that people of 30+ years experience could be wrong, and
    *specifically* wrong, about what they saw.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  3. #83
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half


    "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    news:5254a6c8$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
    > On 09/10/2013 11:01 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >> news:l2vtvp$bi6$2@dont-email.me...
    >>> On 08/10/13 1:57 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I'm sure you are right but IMO it shows that they are actually
    >>>> interested in making their cars safer and the US companies could learn
    >>>> a
    >>>> lot from them.
    >>>
    >>> As someone else mentioned, I think buying back cars crashed in the real
    >>> world is cheaper than crash testing new ones.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Crash tests aren't real world tests and you can learn a lot more from
    >> actual
    >> accidents especially when accompanied with a full investigative report
    >> detailing the circumstances of the accident.

    >
    > Which only usually happens when the crash results in very serious injuries
    > or a fatality, the the case with the VK no one was seriously injured so
    > the police wouldn't have conducted a full investigation, in that case the
    > only investigations were conducted by Holden and the insurance co who both
    > have a vested interest in the result so IMO its unlikely either is
    > unbiased.
    >


    The Federal Department of Transport investigated it, the Automobile club
    investigated it and Holden investigated it.
    They all agreed, so how is that not a full investigation?



  4. #84
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 10:55 AM, Clocky wrote:

    > Yeah, looks strange how that one side is almost entirely intact whilst the
    > rest of it was torn away from it.


    That was a very high energy accident.

    > Every accident is different and a photo
    > can't be used to determine any inherent structural problem before the
    > accident (well, not unless you're a FIGJAM that is)


    Only someone who practices in advanced bullshit could ever believe that.

    > Seems to me that the sort of shearing away of the rear section isn't even
    > uncommon either. First link looks to be the closest the the VK crash in
    > terms of the van having relatively slight damage and the sedan being sliced
    > in half. Clearly shows the angle of impact is a significant factor, and that
    > looks to me to be the case with the VK as well.


    The van is extensively damaged, and the rear of the car has come away in
    anything but a clean fashion.

    > If you hit behind the pillar and collect the rear wheel there is a good
    > chance it's going to shear the rear section of the car off with it.


    Absolute rubbish. As with anything it is totally dependent on the
    circumstances.

    > I found some other links of other cars, and whilst every circumstance of the crash
    > is different it does show that tearing a car in half in a relatively clean
    > manner isn't all that rare.
    >
    > http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/39935-...-car-two.html\
    > http://www.myssnews.com/news-telegra...us-injury.html
    > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ower-pole.html
    > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ash-VIDEO.html
    > http://imgur.com/a/MsTdg
    > http://i.imgur.com/hmrMLOD.jpg
    > http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...-93576729.html
    > http://www.ktvu.com/photo/news/local...n-colma/psZMF/
    > http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226218801947
    > http://media.nbcchicago.com/images/6...2011085845.jpg
    > http://flaglerlive.com/wp-content/uploads/wreck1.jpg
    >
    >
    > And it goes on and on.


    Of all those links, at least the ones that worked, *none* of them showed
    anything like a car being torn in half in a clean state. The last one
    was the biggest joke as it clearly shows the roof turret on the front
    half of the car having been *cut* in a straight line, and with the
    head-lining being cut in exactly the same manner at the same time :)





    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  5. #85
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 2:00 PM, Clocky wrote:

    > It was.


    Hold on a moment...

    An "investigation" was carried out by the DoT in Canberra. That doesn't
    automatically mean it was thorough or competent :)




    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  6. #86
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 2:08 PM, Clocky wrote:

    > The Federal Department of Transport investigated it, the Automobile club
    > investigated it and Holden investigated it.
    > They all agreed, so how is that not a full investigation?


    What Automobile club investigated it?



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  7. #87
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 11:40 AM, Clocky wrote:
    > "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    > news:52537c47$0$2768$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >> On 08/10/2013 9:22 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >>> news:l2v8bk$a77$1@dont-email.me...
    >>>> On 08/10/13 2:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Here it is:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...47?zoomLevel=3
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The follow up reports then:
    >>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>>
    >>>> That looks to be it, thank you. It was indeed a VK after all. I always
    >>>> thought it was a VH.
    >>>>
    >>>> Now, if you look at the photos of both cars you can tell that (a) it was
    >>>> *NOT* a high speed collision,
    >>>
    >>> You can't tell that at all, it looks to me in the vicinity of later
    >>> reports.
    >>>
    >>> (b) the damage to the Commodore is
    >>>> *severe* and out of character to the damage of the Mazda, and (c) the
    >>>> car
    >>>> came apart very cleanly.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Because it hit at an unusual angle which had the effect of shearing the
    >>> Commodore. Looks to me that the rear axle was hit with such force and
    >>> angle
    >>> that it was torn away from the rest of the vehicle. No indication of a
    >>> minor
    >>> accident, looks to me to be rather major.

    >>
    >> The Mazda which where known for being flimsy at best looks to be
    >> repairable,

    >
    > The wheel pushed back 250mm same as in a 60km/h barrier test? I doubt that
    > very much. The "looks" tell you nothing of the structural damage.


    Its not definitive that's for sure but that car looked repairable.
    >
    > the driver claimed she was braking from 80kph, a side on
    >> impact of 70kph whilst still significant shouldn't be enough to split any
    >> car in half.

    >
    > The determined 85-95km/h impact *is* a major impact in terms of impact
    > force.
    >


    Determined by who?
    I see no reason to not believe the Mazda driver.

    > Tell me, do you think two identical cars hitting head-on at 90km/h would
    > cause more, less or the same damage to each one then one of the cars hitting
    > a concrete barrier at 90km/h?
    >


    Since the speed of each impact is the same the damage should be similar
    but unlike a car a concrete barrier doesn't move or bend so my guess is
    the head on impact would be slightly less.


    --
    Daryl

  8. #88
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 2:38 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > "Investigation" can mean lots of things and without seeing the report
    > and seeing the method they used I am still not convinced, too many
    > vested interests with too much too loose.


    I wouldn't be convinced either as I wouldn't trust the Department of
    Transport to be able to clean their own ears, and anything Holden had to
    say on the matter would be nothing other than propaganda (like their
    claims of 140km/h impact speeds for example).

    Clocky referred to some "club", but I'm ****ed if I know what he's
    talking about there.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  9. #89
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 2:35 PM, D Walford wrote:

    > Determined by who?
    > I see no reason to not believe the Mazda driver.


    Neither do I. Nor the Police attending the scene on the day who were of
    the opinion that the collision was minor.



    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  10. #90
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 2:08 PM, Clocky wrote:
    > "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    > news:5254a6c8$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
    >> On 09/10/2013 11:01 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >>> news:l2vtvp$bi6$2@dont-email.me...
    >>>> On 08/10/13 1:57 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I'm sure you are right but IMO it shows that they are actually
    >>>>> interested in making their cars safer and the US companies could learn
    >>>>> a
    >>>>> lot from them.
    >>>>
    >>>> As someone else mentioned, I think buying back cars crashed in the real
    >>>> world is cheaper than crash testing new ones.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Crash tests aren't real world tests and you can learn a lot more from
    >>> actual
    >>> accidents especially when accompanied with a full investigative report
    >>> detailing the circumstances of the accident.

    >>
    >> Which only usually happens when the crash results in very serious injuries
    >> or a fatality, the the case with the VK no one was seriously injured so
    >> the police wouldn't have conducted a full investigation, in that case the
    >> only investigations were conducted by Holden and the insurance co who both
    >> have a vested interest in the result so IMO its unlikely either is
    >> unbiased.
    >>

    >
    > The Federal Department of Transport investigated it, the Automobile club
    > investigated it and Holden investigated it.
    > They all agreed, so how is that not a full investigation?
    >
    >

    "Investigation" can mean lots of things and without seeing the report
    and seeing the method they used I am still not convinced, too many
    vested interests with too much too loose.


    --
    Daryl

  11. #91
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 12:20 PM, Clocky wrote:

    >> It certainly isn't specific to any car company but I think they would set
    >> a better precedent by actually admitting that occasionally they make a
    >> lemon and just replace them.

    >
    > No arguement there. When I was working for Holden I do know of one car they
    > took back but the customer only had the option of accepting a replacement
    > vehicle from memory.
    > That was for a car with an intermittent cutting out problem where everything
    > was replaced. The fault was so unique that engineers were flown in to have a
    > look at this thing before determining it was best to take it back for
    > further assessment.
    > It doesn't happen too often, but then true lemons aren't that common either.


    I know of 2 when I worked at Ford, one was an XC Fairmont GXL V8 and I
    actually drove the car for a couple of days after it was replaced and I
    would have been happy to keep it, can't remember the details of the
    other car.
    I also remember a Bronco getting a new body shell because of rust, it
    spent most of its life on a beach and but the owner still complained
    that it rusted, they dismantled it and put all the parts in order back
    on the production line and ran the new shell down the line fitting all
    its original parts.
    >
    >> The lemon Mazda I bought in 1984 is a good example, after the way I was
    >> treated by Mazda and the dealer I would never own another and I go out of
    >> my way to let people know what I feel about Mazda and I have persuaded a
    >> few people not to buy Mazda's but if they had done the right thing and not
    >> ****ed me around I wouldn't be complaining but now I will continue to bad
    >> mouth them till the day I die.
    >>

    >
    > It doesn't seem to have affected their sales too much ;-)
    >
    >
    >

    Unfortunately, I would be happy if the miserable ****s went broke.

    --
    Daryl

  12. #92
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/13 11:44 AM, Clocky wrote:

    > You're not an engineer but you're entitled to your view.


    I am indeed, and fortunately I'm not an engineer otherwise I'd have to
    immediately buy a pair of nasty grey slip on shoes and have half my
    brain removed.

    > Better stop driving then as it's hardly uncommon.


    Cars breaking in half in major accidents are fairly common indeed. Cars
    in half from a series of weld failures after a minor tap are not common
    at all.

    Fortunately :)

    > Your memory has failed you again.


    Well, kinda.

    I remembered the accident and that it was a Commodore that broke in half
    under unusual circumstances, but was wrong about the model and about the
    car that hit it (which I thought was a Corolla).

    I always thought I read about it in the Sun as I don't read the Canberra
    press and it was before the days of your friend Google, so perhaps it
    was the panel beater I mentioned who showed me the pics of it in a trade
    journal mentioned the owner and court case.

    Who knows. That part of it is clearly wrong and either belongs to
    something else or is a total myth. The Commodore suffering a major
    structural failure certainly isn't.







    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  13. #93
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 09/10/2013 2:44 PM, Noddy wrote:
    > On 09/10/13 2:38 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> "Investigation" can mean lots of things and without seeing the report
    >> and seeing the method they used I am still not convinced, too many
    >> vested interests with too much too loose.

    >
    > I wouldn't be convinced either as I wouldn't trust the Department of
    > Transport to be able to clean their own ears, and anything Holden had to
    > say on the matter would be nothing other than propaganda (like their
    > claims of 140km/h impact speeds for example).
    >
    > Clocky referred to some "club", but I'm ****ed if I know what he's
    > talking about there.
    >
    >
    >

    I think one of the newspaper articles mentioned RACV.

    --
    Daryl

  14. #94
    Ext User() Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    "Blue Heeler" <woof@bark.org> wrote:
    > Clocky wrote:
    >
    >> Or the impact was in fact not minor at all and the speculative pub
    >> talk turned it into something it wasn't. As I said, it's too
    >> speculative to know.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Thank you for the articles on the VK. An impact delivered to an unusual
    > area resulting in quite unexpected results. Althought the holden
    > engineers may have been a bit "ambitious" in their estimate of the
    > impact speed.
    >

    Actually I think they were pretty much on the mark, with a delta v of 100
    kmh. Even the facts of the woman's complaint, rather than her
    interpretation of them, would support that. Delta v might be as low as 85
    to 90 kmh, but I would guesstimate a 100.

    I second the thanks for Clockies research, I really couldn't recall the
    details without them to jog my memory.


    --
    cheers, Paul Saccani

  15. #95
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    Noddy wrote:
    > On 09/10/13 2:35 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >
    >> Determined by who?
    >> I see no reason to not believe the Mazda driver.

    >
    > Neither do I. Nor the Police attending the scene on the day who were of
    > the opinion that the collision was minor.
    >
    >
    >


    It clearly wasn't.

    Even a collision at 70km/h isn't minor.

  16. #96
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    D Walford wrote:
    > On 09/10/2013 11:40 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >> "D Walford" <dwalford@internode.on.net> wrote in message
    >> news:52537c47$0$2768$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astrawe b.com...
    >>> On 08/10/2013 9:22 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>> "Noddy" <me@wardengineering.com.au> wrote in message
    >>>> news:l2v8bk$a77$1@dont-email.me...
    >>>>> On 08/10/13 2:46 AM, Clocky wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Here it is:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...47?zoomLevel=3
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The follow up reports then:
    >>>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That looks to be it, thank you. It was indeed a VK after all. I always
    >>>>> thought it was a VH.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Now, if you look at the photos of both cars you can tell that (a)
    >>>>> it was
    >>>>> *NOT* a high speed collision,
    >>>>
    >>>> You can't tell that at all, it looks to me in the vicinity of later
    >>>> reports.
    >>>>
    >>>> (b) the damage to the Commodore is
    >>>>> *severe* and out of character to the damage of the Mazda, and (c) the
    >>>>> car
    >>>>> came apart very cleanly.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Because it hit at an unusual angle which had the effect of shearing the
    >>>> Commodore. Looks to me that the rear axle was hit with such force and
    >>>> angle
    >>>> that it was torn away from the rest of the vehicle. No indication of a
    >>>> minor
    >>>> accident, looks to me to be rather major.
    >>>
    >>> The Mazda which where known for being flimsy at best looks to be
    >>> repairable,

    >>
    >> The wheel pushed back 250mm same as in a 60km/h barrier test? I doubt
    >> that
    >> very much. The "looks" tell you nothing of the structural damage.

    >
    > Its not definitive that's for sure but that car looked repairable.



    It was a write-off.

    >>
    >> the driver claimed she was braking from 80kph, a side on
    >>> impact of 70kph whilst still significant shouldn't be enough to split
    >>> any
    >>> car in half.

    >>
    >> The determined 85-95km/h impact *is* a major impact in terms of impact
    >> force.
    >>

    >
    > Determined by who?
    > I see no reason to not believe the Mazda driver.
    >


    I guess they saw some reason and since they were there, or at least saw
    the damage first hand and investigated the accident in full, I have no
    reason to doubt the report.

    People involved in accidents are not very reliable witnesses.


    >> Tell me, do you think two identical cars hitting head-on at 90km/h would
    >> cause more, less or the same damage to each one then one of the cars
    >> hitting
    >> a concrete barrier at 90km/h?
    >>

    >
    > Since the speed of each impact is the same the damage should be similar
    > but unlike a car a concrete barrier doesn't move or bend so my guess is
    > the head on impact would be slightly less.
    >
    >


    About the same, yes.


  17. #97
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 10/10/13 10:26 PM, Clocky wrote:

    > It clearly wasn't.


    It clearly was :)

    > Even a collision at 70km/h isn't minor.


    Speed is irrelevant.

    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  18. #98
    Ext User(Noddy) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 10/10/13 10:27 PM, Clocky wrote:

    > It was a write-off.


    I believe so, but that has nothing to do with whether the vehicle can be
    repaired.

    In the overwhelming majority of cases, and we're talking *well* over
    90%, vehicles are written off by insurers purely from a point of view of
    economics. the cost of repairing the vehicles usually meets or exceeds
    the vehicle's market value so it becomes a total loss in financial terms.

    > I guess they saw some reason and since they were there, or at least saw
    > the damage first hand and investigated the accident in full, I have no
    > reason to doubt the report.


    But you'll totally ignore the conflicting reports of others. Odd that.

    > People involved in accidents are not very reliable witnesses.


    Really? Who says?

    I would think that in *any* case you'd care to mention the reliability
    of a given witness would depend entirely on whether they were expected
    to tell a tale that you supported your claim.

    In this particular case the "witness" claims she was driving at no more
    than 80km/h and braked heavily before hitting the Commodore.

    There's not a hell of a lot in that to be unreliable about. Especially
    in light of the fact that she's not the at fault driver.




    --
    --
    Regards,
    Noddy.

  19. #99
    Ext User(D Walford) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    On 10/10/2013 10:26 PM, Clocky wrote:
    > Noddy wrote:
    >> On 09/10/13 2:35 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>
    >>> Determined by who?
    >>> I see no reason to not believe the Mazda driver.

    >>
    >> Neither do I. Nor the Police attending the scene on the day who were of
    >> the opinion that the collision was minor.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    > It clearly wasn't.
    >
    > Even a collision at 70km/h isn't minor.


    I T boned a Mazda at about 60kph with a VK Commodore and the damage to
    both cars was very significantly more than the damage to the Mazda in
    the picture which is why I think the impact was a lot lower than the
    100kph Holden claimed, by the look of it the Mazda drivers claim of
    braking from 80kph seems a lot more realistic and its no where near high
    enough to cause that much damage to the Commodore unless there was a
    structural weakness.

    --
    Daryl

  20. #100
    Ext User(Clocky) Guest

    Re: VH Commodre broke in half

    D Walford wrote:
    > On 10/10/2013 10:26 PM, Clocky wrote:
    >> Noddy wrote:
    >>> On 09/10/13 2:35 PM, D Walford wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Determined by who?
    >>>> I see no reason to not believe the Mazda driver.
    >>>
    >>> Neither do I. Nor the Police attending the scene on the day who were of
    >>> the opinion that the collision was minor.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> It clearly wasn't.
    >>
    >> Even a collision at 70km/h isn't minor.

    >
    > I T boned a Mazda at about 60kph with a VK Commodore and the damage to
    > both cars was very significantly more than the damage to the Mazda in
    > the picture which is why



    It's irrelevant because she didn't T-bone the Commodore.


    I think the impact was a lot lower than the
    > 100kph Holden claimed, by the look of it the Mazda drivers claim of
    > braking from 80kph seems a lot more realistic and its no where near high
    > enough to cause that much damage to the Commodore unless there was a
    > structural weakness.
    >


    Which was shown to be nonsense when properly investigated.


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