Why Hired DVD Videos Play And Burnt DVD’s are Suspect

[kevsim]

I am very new to the DVD field, however, I can not understand some issues, as follows –

My home, standalone DVD player has never refused to play any DVD I have hired, or any professional media used, no matter the source.

When I burn a DVD from my computer, LG4120B burner (not copied media), it will not always play in my home DVD player.
What is the difference between media from the hire shop and what I burn from the LG burner?
Does the burner, burn in the same protocol, why the difference, is it the software used (Nero 6) for burning, or the burner?

If the LG burner is burning a different format (along with the burning software), why is this?

I would appreciate some advise, as at present, it is a costly exercise.

Kevsim

[andw]

If it plays some of them, but not others etc, you might want to try slowing down your burn speed.
Start your next burn at the slowest speed your burner will go at, if that works fine, you can try a higher speed on the next one.
Some players are more fussy than others, and if you burn slower they work better.
Also, sometimes the brand of disc plays a part.

[dvd_beetle]

DVD-ROM and DVD-R are two different things. They are both an official part of the DVD specification, so in theory they should play - but this is not always the case. What brand media are you using? I have traditionally used Ritek discs, but i'm moving up in the world to Taiyo Yuden discs (the best). It might also be worth investing in a new DVD player.

[dvd_beetle]

Oh and just so you know DVD+R is a seperate format, so +R complatability is compleatly seperate to -R.

[kevsim]

I thank you both for the reply.
I use Verbatim and TDK media.
I do understand there are different formats, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-R/W, DVD+R/W, DVD Ram, my exististing player is supposed to play all formats, including dual layer.
I am looking at buying a new player/recorder, waiting for a few more choices to appear on the market.
For my next burn, I will try the slowest speed, however, I am still a little puzzled why my player always plays commercial DVD's.
I never had a problem with VCD's
kevsim

[jokiin]

Players can often get a bit fussy when they start to get on a bit, the ability to play burnt discs is usually the first to suffer. It would have been better to also mention what player you have, perhaps someone with the same type would have same experience with media that they could share. Even if your player is meant to handle all media types does not indicate that it will work with every brand, is the media capabability of your player specified by the manufacturer or by someone elses experience? It's not uncommon for players to have different versions of hardware throughout their production life and media handling can be different between two seemingly identical players. Andw is right, plenty of times slowing down the burn speed is enough to fix the problem, I have also found many players that do not like TDK media for some reason, usually the most compatibility comes with -R discs.

[wadeo_mmm]

have also found many players that do not like TDK media for some reason, usually the most compatibility comes with -R discs.

I have also found this with the TDK media, several DVD players and recorders (for PC) e.g. LiteON, Gigabyte and Sony have had problems reading and writing to TDK and my Pioneer Stand-alone player will also on read TDK media occasionly.

[kevsim]

Some interesting facts on burnt DVD's playing on standalone players.

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/128497

kevsim

[jokiin]

There doesn't seem to be too much in the way of facts there at all, plenty of opinion, even some mis-information, but not a whole lot of fact. I would suspect that your drive may be getting old in your XMS750, not being able to play burnt media is quite often the first sign that the drive is getting tired. If you are burning correctly then it won't be related to bit setting etc that is causing you grief, this is resonably easy to test, try your movies in someone elses DVD player, if they play ok then it's quite likely that you are doing things correctly. If not then have a look at your method of creating your discs, it may be something as simple as not mastering correctly, if you're not sure (you did mention you're new to this) have a look at this guide http://www.dvd-guides.com/content/view/40/59/ perhaps you will see something that you have overlooked, you can check here for some other guides also http://www.videohelp.com/guides.php?...or+List+Guides if it all checks out though then it really is quite likely that your drive is getting tired, your player was very good in its day but it is getting quite old. You mentioned in the other forum that you were trying to back up some home movies so perhaps it's some simple mastering error, plenty of formats will play in a PC that will not work in a standalone player, a standalone player does require the discs to be mastered to a particular standard, all of the info is available from the links provided. If you are still stuck post back with some specific detail of what you have tried, settings used, file format you are starting with etc.

[kevsim]

jok11n,
Thanks for the info.

I do not agree with your comment on "Not Much Fact", "Plenty of opinion etc".
What I wrote came directly from the OEM's for burner, media and burning software, not my opinion.

There are 2 members of my family besides myself who have XMS 750 players, all were purchased over a 14 month period, plus and from different parts of the country.
None of them will play any burnt DVD's.
There must be a difference between commercial and burnt disks.

I have stated in another EYO forum previously, due to my overseas work, my player was hardly used, do not see how this would make the drive old.
The player NEVER has refused to play any commercil disk, I did note though the book type was always -ROM on single layer disks, did not check dual layer.

I do not know where, at this pont of time, but I can't wait to get my hands on an Lite-on burner, to prove this theory of - ROM, once and for all.
If any body has success with the Lite-on, I would appreciate hearing from you.

I will double check the method I am authoring and burning, just in case.

kevsim

[kevsim]

jok11n,
I did forget one thing, is there any specific brand of disk recommended for the XMS 750?

Just me buying a new DVD player will not solve my problem, there are other members of the family and friends who would have to buy new equipment if burnt disks do not play in their existing equipment and that is out of the question.

I would appreciate your advise.

kevsim

[nsu]

For the DVD player to play back burnt CDs, the player need to have two laser heads. Does this apply also to burnt DVDs? I know my player (Toshiba) would not play back anything other than the original medias. The only way I can play back a VCD is burn it onto a CDRW disk, not CD-R, even then, it is picky on what brand of CDRW I use.

It is possible, that I am out of fashion here. All players made probably have twin lasers already nowadays.

[jokiin]

Ok, a few things first, I'm only going on what is in this thread, I haven't gone and read your posts from another thread to know that you were overseas and not using you player, still the player could be up to 6 years old depending on what revision of player it is, the XMS750 may have looked the same through its life but there were a number of changes to hardware and software throughout its life. Things can degrade over time, even if not being used, the fact that you say that the discs that you have made don't work in any of the players might indicate that it is just something you are doing wrong when mastering your discs. If that's the case changing to a different burner won't help, they will still need to be mastered correctly, bit setting? perhaps, but it should be ok as is. I haven't used your model burner, I did have the model prior to this and never had any problems making readable discs. Check if there is a firmware update available for your burner though, often these are released to add media compatibility for newer model discs.

As to media I have used cheap media and they can still be read in the XMS750, even Princo which some people have trouble with, the trick with cheap media is usually to slow the burn down to the slowest speed you can for increased success rates. I don't recall you mentioning what discs you are using, you mentioned the brand but you didn't mention the format of the disc, if you haven't done so already I would suggest you use -R media as you will find that they are the most likely to work, technically +R is said to be superior but -R is compatible with more players. I would also suggest not using TDK discs, I have heard a lot of people having trouble with their discs in DVD players for some reason.

If you look through this list you will see various results from owners of this model http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers....y=Name&hits=25 as I said earlier this machine was updated a few times during its lifespan and there are different results depending on what hardware was used.

Your player is not meant to play all formats (you are likely to have the most success with -R though), you mentioned this earlier, it definately won't look at DVD-RAM, most likely will not handle dual layer either, don't confuse this with dual layer pre recorded DVD, I'm referring to dual layer blank media that you burn yourself, most current players have trouble with these discs, the chances that an older player will handle them is very slim.

Not all DVD players can play burnt discs, the likelyhood that all of the players that you have tried fall into this category is slim so it would still seem that it is something in your mastering that is the problem, if you still can't get a burnt disc working in any of these players let me know where you are located, perhaps I can get a known good disc to you that you can use to test in each of the players.

[kevsim]

Jok11n,
Once more thanks for the info and information provided.

I read your statement on deterioration over time, in some cases I would accept this, but due to my electrical engineering background in this case, it is a load of rubbish, no disrespect.

This still does not explain why it will play any commercial media thrown at it, regardless of the zone, but not burnt media, the drive can not be worn out, along with the other two families as explained previously. If this being the case, an enormous coincidence.

I have accepted your previous advise of how I author or burn the media, I am now double checking what I do, thanks for the advise.

In another thread, where I made the comment of being overseas, you did make a reverse comment and I was still using the same handle.

I also did mention, where “LG” Australia, told me on the telephone, they would not support bit setting, that would leave me no other choice than to change burner brands.
The OEM for a major media company also suggested I buy a new brand of burner.

With respect to your comment on playing dual layer disks pre recorded and those burnt, why the difference?
This comes back to my original statement again, there must be a difference between commercial media and burnt media.
Why can’t a burner do the same with quality media, very suspect.

You were correct in your previous comments, I am new to the DVD issues, that is why I am still asking questions, but with my thirst for knowledge, I believe I have graduated fast and now starting to understanding the issues.
Most commonly, the frustration of people who have purchased, burners, media, software and players to find they have spent considerable sums of money for a no return.

I also thank you for the offer of providing a known disk if required.

I have checked and found there is a firmware update for my burner and will flash to this version.

Finally, I take your advise and will review my authoring and burning methods, should I be wrong in what I am doing, I will return to this thread and explain.

I would still appreciate hearing from any people who have had success burning using –ROM, especially the brand of burner used.

kevsim

[jokiin]

Originally Posted by kevsim

Jok11n,
Once more thanks for the info and information provided.

Your welcome

Originally Posted by kevsim

I read your statement on deterioration over time, in some cases I would accept this, but due to my electrical engineering background in this case, it is a load of rubbish, no disrespect.

I had an XMS150 brought to me once that had 'deteriorated over time' and wouldn't play, the guy insisted on a replacement, the world was ending etc if he didn't get one on the spot, I insisted on opening it first and was greeted by around 100 dead roaches (this record still stands), I'll take your word that yours has been looked after, but I was just trying to be polite about it, I have seen some unusual ones over the years, I suspect that this is not your issue anyway.

Originally Posted by kevsim

This still does not explain why it will play any commercial media thrown at it, regardless of the zone, but not burnt media, the drive can not be worn out, along with the other two families as explained previously. If this being the case, an enormous coincidence.

Not all drives used in DVD players can play burnt media, these days most will play at least -R but a few models ago it was not unusual for some brands of players to not want to even look at a burnt disc, particularly the brand name players, go back a few models and Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba to name a few would not look at a burnt disc, Panasonic drives were also popular in some generic players but were quickly changed due to them not reading burnt media. Remember DVD burners have only become affordable and common quite recently, a few years back there wasn't too much demand for a player that could handle them as there wasn't enough media in circulation for it to be an issue.

Originally Posted by kevsim

I have accepted your previous advise of how I author or burn the media, I am now double checking what I do, thanks for the advise.

I really do suspect that this is the issue anyway, hopefully the guides in the previous links provided will be helpful.

Originally Posted by kevsim

In another thread, where I made the comment of being overseas, you did make a reverse comment and I was still using the same handle.

I post a fair bit and don't remember eveything I have posted and who to, I'm just trying to offer some help where possible, sorry if I have overlooked something.

Originally Posted by kevsim

I also did mention, where “LG” Australia, told me on the telephone, they would not support bit setting, that would leave me no other choice than to change burner brands.
The OEM for a major media company also suggested I buy a new brand of burner.

A friend of mine up until recently worked in the department you would have spoken to at LG, I know their customer service can be a bit poor, I have used LG burners in the past and haven't had any trouble making movies with them, we also had one until recently at work which had done several hundred movies before it was retired, I don't think they are that bad. Even so DVD burners are cheap enough that a replacement is worthwhile, I would strongly recommend a Pioneer burner if you decide to update, I have three of these at the moment and they have been excellent.

Originally Posted by kevsim

With respect to your comment on playing dual layer disks pre recorded and those burnt, why the difference?
This comes back to my original statement again, there must be a difference between commercial media and burnt media.
Why can’t a burner do the same with quality media, very suspect.

Yes there is a difference, not all drives support burnt media, this is a physical hardware limitation. Even when building a DVD player (I am referring to purchase from the supplier at factory level) it is neccessary to specify what media types you want supported and the player is spec'd and built accordingly, it is still possible to spec the player with a drive that does not support burnt media, we don't ever do this though, all players we do must at least support -R media, higher range models have +R support added which costs extra, Panasonic do a DVD player that supports DVD-RAM also, I guess because it's one of the formats used with their recorders, not aware of any others that support it though.

Originally Posted by kevsim

You were correct in your previous comments, I am new to the DVD issues, that is why I am still asking questions, but with my thirst for knowledge, I believe I have graduated fast and now starting to understanding the issues.
Most commonly, the frustration of people who have purchased, burners, media, software and players to find they have spent considerable sums of money for a no return.

I'm sure you are on the verge of working out where this is going wrong for you.

Originally Posted by kevsim

I also thank you for the offer of providing a known disk if required.

No problem, offer still stands. You might also want to try burning something to a -R disc and taking it into your nearest retailer and see if any of the display units will play it, do keep in mind that some players are a bit loose in their standards depending on the chipset the player is based on and can play discs that do not conform to correct book types, if you have it right it should play in just about any player on display, I don't know of any player on the market at the moment that doesn't play -R media at least. There can be a small quantity that don't like it but this would usually relate to the media used, some brands are more successful than others, burning at a slower speed can often eliminate this as an issue though. Suggest you burn at 2x if your burner allows it, also make sure that you have your burning software updated to the latest version also, typically the updates add increased media compatibility and will give better results. If you still can't get something that plays in the majority of players on the shelf then something is still obviously going south, if so let me know and I'd be quite happy to send you a test disc that you can use to check your player and the others that you are trying to accomodate. If you have 3 players that won't handle this disc then I would suggest purchasing a trifecta in next years Melbourne cup, the odds are similar

Originally Posted by kevsim

I have checked and found there is a firmware update for my burner and will flash to this version.

Good idea I think regardless.

Originally Posted by kevsim

Finally, I take your advise and will review my authoring and burning methods, should I be wrong in what I am doing, I will return to this thread and explain.

I would still appreciate hearing from any people who have had success burning using –ROM, especially the brand of burner used.

kevsim

You might also want to check out this info on bit setting and its use to fool a player into thinking it is dealing with a ROM and not a burnt disc http://www.signvideo.com/btst-d.htm if you do happen to have players that will not support burnt media you still may need to go down this road, unlikely that all three players fall into this category though, I can't speak for the others as I don't know what make and models they are but your XMS750 should handle -R at least, when a drive is on the way out it typically has trouble with burnt media but still handles pre mastered disc fine, if this were the case though it should still at least try to play but would just skip and carry on before giving up. For whatever burner you may end up with down the track this site is a useful resource also http://forum.rpc1.org/index.php plenty of info on firmware updates, user advice etc

Let us know how you get on either way.

[kevsim]

jok11n,
The DVD- disk I burnt, would not play in my XMS750, however, it did play in some other players.
I tried many brands of media and burnt at the slowest speed, still no luck.

A friend of mine has just purchased a Sony DVD burner, using the data off the DVD-R disk, he burnt the disk to +R and +RW media changing the book type to -ROM, the media was only cheap and not good quality.

I tried it in my XMS750, it played immediately, however it did stop twice but after a small time started playing again.

The same DVD was placed in a laptop DVD rom player, it also stopped playing a few more times.

I have put this down to the burn speed and the media type, we will be trying again some time later next week using high quality media and slower burn speed.
He also has an XMS750 player, it will be interesting if his player will play the –R media along with the book type –ROM.

He also burnt a +RW with changed book type to -ROM, my XMS750 would not play, just “No Disk”.

I will provide more information after doing other burns with +R and +RW media and trying in many types of players.
This looks extremely promising.

kevsim

[kevsim]

jok11n,
I would also like to take up the offer of a Test disk.

kevsim

[jokiin]

Originally Posted by kevsim

jok11n,
I would also like to take up the offer of a Test disk.

kevsim

Looks like you are getting some progress with your burning experiments, PM me your details and I will arrange to send you the test disc.

[kevsim]

Sorry that further information was delayed, this was due to me experimenting with the different formats, however, due to the time spent, I do not have any problems playing burnt DVD’s using –ROM, still one issue with –R disks.

Firstly I would like to thank jok11n by providing me with a Test –R Disk, this disk played OK on 3 different XMS 750 standalones and some other types, it convinced me to proceed further.
The original of this disk would have been pressed not burnt.

The equipment used-
The +R disks, Ritek RO2.
The –R disks, Ritek GO5.
The +RW, not sure of brand or quality.
Software for burning and authoring, Nero Reloaded.
Sony Burner DRU-710A.
Lite-On burner SOHW – 1673S.

The –R story –
The Test disk I was provided played without any problems.
To prove my media, I did a disk copy and this played in both XMS750 standalones that I tried them on, the disk had both Menues and Chapters

Firstly I authored a single file with one Menu item and no Chapters, this disk played but had no navigation on the player.

I then authored a single file with one Menu item and Chapters, this disk would not play, the screen caption was “No Disk”.

I then burnt a disk with multiple files, multiple Menu items and Chapters, this would not play on the standalone, screen caption was “No Disk”.

My next step was to merge all the files into one, One menu item and No chapters, this played OK but I did not have any navigation on the player.

I tried another combination of multiple files, No Menu, No Chapters and Play Files In Sequence, this disk would not play, screen caption was “No Disk”.

I finally came to the conclusion, the standalone did not like the way the Menu and/or Chapters were handled with –R format disks.
It could also be the way the Leadin is written when burning.

To prevent the menu and chapters when authoring, I did not make a Selection for any Chapters, selected Do Not Show Menu and Play Files in sequence.

Does anybody have a solution re the Menu, Chapters or Leadin issue, I would appreciate any advise.


The –ROM story –
A friend of mine purchased a Sony DRU-710A DVD burner, it has a bitsetting module, he burnt some –ROM disks. These disks were played on 3 different XMS 750 players, all behaved differently stopping at different points.
It is possible he was trying to burn at a faster speed as the media used was the same with both burners or did not have the latest firmware.

As my burner was an LG4160B and LG would never answer any e-mails in relation to their intentions to provide bitsetting for this model, I refused and still do, to buy another LG product, so I purchased a Lite-On SOHW-1673S, great burner no problems.

The bitsetting works perfectly for any +R disks I burn using, the booktype –ROM, they have played on 4 different XMS 750 standalones, Playstation 2 and X-Box and other brand standalones without any problems.

They were used on the players where the Sony burnt disks were stopping no disk had a problem, all played OK.

All disks had a Menu and Chapters, there was no issues with the –ROM format.

I did try an +RW disk with booktype changed to –ROM, it would not play, the screen stated “No Disk”, not sure of the brand of disk I used but will use a quality brand and try again.

The VCD story –
Using a single file the VCD would play OK in my standalone.

By using multiple files without a menu the DVD would play OK, by using the Next and Previous buttons on the standalone, I could only navigate between files.

If I included a multiple menu, it would not play.

This format acts up like DVD-R when adding a menu.

AC3 Sound-
In Nero, you can set the sound for AC3 (2 channel) and AC3 (5.1) it can be used for DVD, works OK. If the AC3 module was not provided with your copy of Nero, it can be purchased on line as a plug in.
Two channel AC3 only allows the front speakers to operate.
Using 5.1 format I had sound from all speakers, it made a tremendous difference,
it does improve the listening quality.

Conclusions
It appears there are issues with the –R format using the Menu and Chapters and possibly how the Leadin is written.

Sony and Lite-On are basically the same burner except for the badge and firmware.

I will be using –ROM until there is an answer to the –R issues as they play in any player I have tried.

Hoping this information will be of help to anybody suffering issues with disks not playing on standalone players

kevsim

[amber.2]

Originally Posted by nsu

For the DVD player to play back burnt CDs, the player need to have two laser heads. Does this apply also to burnt DVDs? I know my player (Toshiba) would not play back anything other than the original medias. The only way I can play back a VCD is burn it onto a CDRW disk, not CD-R, even then, it is picky on what brand of CDRW I use.

It is possible, that I am out of fashion here. All players made probably have twin lasers already nowadays.

Thats strange i also have a Toshiba sd2850 and a samsung m405 and ive burnt 100 dvd's on just princo and never had one that didnt play
i use clone and any dvd .but my daughter has a lg and some times they will freeze . I think it all has to do with the quality of your dvd player